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Tough to Assess

PhillySpider

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May 14, 2003
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Watching last night got me to thinking what do I really think of where we are as a team? Each game is easy to critique, but overall what do I think of the team and its possibilities (especially over this and next year). My conclusion is that we are really, really hard to assess.

Our results don't really shed much light on this. Good win against Wisco, bad loss against Radford. Solid win on road at RI but let a game we really needed to win at home against St. Louis get away. The rest to me are pretty much all what was expected and don't point much to whether we are good or just no longer bad. I just can't tell.

In addition to the results to date, I am just as confused by both my eye test from having seen almost every minute of every game and from my look at various analytics that I believe can be insightful (most from KenPom, but a few other places too).

Just watching us, our defense still concerns me a good bit. Its no doubt improved, but I still wonder how will it really stand up against better competition and specifically against teams that really are good and aggressive at breaking down their man off the dribble and taking it to the rim. We look much more comfortable to me in this defense, but just looking I still see some areas for concern. Grant is just not a defensive presence at all and Nick still struggles with lateral quickness. And no one else is a really stud defender. JG obviously helps with his elite steals ability, but the rest of his defense is just OK. So we are better - - but are we good (or good enough)? I am just not sure.

Analytics also sorta leave me in no man's land. We defend the three really well (statistically) and its clear we worked on this, but our 2 point defense is not nearly as good. We are just so-so at generating turnovers overall (149th) but looking at how we get them, we are very good at getting steals (58th) and very bad at forcing non-steal turnovers (317th). Steals are better than non-steal turnovers in a vacuum generally (because they lead to easy baskets more often), but its an interesting dichotomy. There are often teams who generate a lot of steals but aren't very good defensively overall (i.e going for steals represents risk and teams can get exploited) . Almost all teams who generate a high volume of non-steal turnovers are excellent overall defensive teams (but the corollary isn't nearly as reliable). But our steals are the product of one guys uncanny ability and not because as a team we go for a lot of steals and get exposed for it so I think its strictly a good thing we get some steals. In the end I guess the analytics and my eyes tell me generally we are OK defensively. Which beats the hell out last year when both pretty clearly said we stunk it up pretty good!

None of that defensive stuff mentions rebounding where there is no doubt about it in my mind or in the analytics. We stink. Still. No doubt about it. Offensively and defensively.

Offensively is the even more interesting take. My sense watching is that we are good offensively and better than last year. But when I really thought about it, I am not so sure how good and certainly not that we are better than last year. Analytics seem to back that up.

I think it all looks better because we are so very evidently more dangerous as a three point shooting team. Just watching Nick back on the floor and Blake in there and its obvious. But just as obvious to me is that Golden has regressed some with his offensive game (except he has stopped shooting threes) and Nathan has been far less aggressive and involved offensively. So, how good are we and are we better than last year?

Analytics are interesting. We are really good at two very important things - - effective FG% (37th) and turning it over (i.e. NOT turning it over) (15th). But we were almost identically as good last year (42nd and 18th). We are much better shooting the three this year and much worse shooting the two (validating what I see perhaps?). Our FT shooting is much better, but we get to the line considerably less often. These two numbers are fascinating to me. We are elite in FT shooting (2nd) and stunningly bad (and a good deal worse than last year) at actually getting there (at 345th). So is FT shooting a strength really? Its clear I'd rather we shoot 80% than 65%, but not sure how much this translates into we are better for our improved FT shooting. Analytically, FT ATTEMPTS has a much, much higher correlation to winning than does FT%. When you combine the two stats and look at what % of your points come from FT (so we offset not getting there by making more for example), we are still really bad (337th in the country). This also has a much higher correlation to winning than FT %.

I think all this shows up in games in some predictable ways: 1. We should be good at closing out games at the FT line; (2) we aren't going to win many games when we don't shoot it very well (because we aren't going to get to the line or get offensive rebounds to offset poor shooting) and (3) we are going to be susceptible to other teams having good runs against us (again because we won't be getting to the line or getting any 2nd chance points to stem the tide etc.).

The last point will bother me watching the most because its hard to watch, but I think its going to be part of who we are. We are a shooting dependent team and going against good teams you are going to have periods where the ball just isn't going in and those are going to be very painful to watch and I just don't think we have the tools to really prevent it. I absolutely do think the coach needs to be aware of this and that we are going to struggle more than many teams to
'play through" these spots and he may need to be more prepared to intervene and do what he can to change things up or run special plays etc. to get us some hoops when this is going on. I think there is far more value in using some TO's here than saving them.

So, in the end, I think I have a not so startling conclusion - - we are a "fine" or "OK" or "above average" maybe even a "good" team (depending on what these terms mean to you). We have some real strengths and some real weaknesses (which I think it better in the long run than just being OK at everything) and I think that gives us some upside as you hope to ride the strengths and efficiently insulate the weaknesses. I'd expect to win another game or two were we are underdogs and but maybe lose 2-3 where we are favored (more of these simply because we have more of them). But I just don't think we have enough to really be a contender for NCAA at-large or A-10 Top 2-3 teams etc. But the NIT looks like a lock and I will say that an A-10 tourney run isn't impossible because its always possible we can shoot our way to wins on any given day.
 
Really enjoyed the read. Had spent a good amount of time on KenPom recently as well and had similar thoughts.

I am curious as to why you don't think we have it in us to make a run a Top 3 in the league. UD is a cut above. After that, I think there's a second tier and we're squarely in it.
 
I think last two games, Cayo has started to attack offensively a lot better. Whoever
got his foul shooting productivity up, deserves a metal. Last night they put Gus on line
and he made them pay.

I agree on Grant that he does not go strong to hoop or is able to use off hand. Watched Silva
score against Toppin 3x last night, each time using his left hand. Grant also when helping with beating press, needs to dribble less and find ball handlers.

Lastly Woj and Gus need to be less selfish at times and either attack lane or shoot. Their sharing sometimes put us in shot clock issues.
 
I think last two games, Cayo has started to attack offensively a lot better. Whoever
got his foul shooting productivity up, deserves a metal. Last night they put Gus on line
and he made them pay.

I agree on Grant that he does not go strong to hoop or is able to use off hand. Watched Silva
score against Toppin 3x last night, each time using his left hand. Grant also when helping with beating press, needs to dribble less and find ball handlers.

Lastly Woj and Gus need to be less selfish at times and either attack lane or shoot. Their sharing sometimes put us in shot clock issues.
Less selfish or more? cause it sounds like being less selfish by sharing less...
 
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The St. Louis loss sucked, but it's a league game and a bad matchup for us. You are going to lose a few of those. The Radford loss sucked, but they are actually a pretty decent team, it was at a random site, we seemed less than motivated. Chalk that up to doing a poor job getting up for the game. Shouldn't happen, but it did. Auburn, duh. Alabama, would have liked to see more fight but they were hitting from everywhere.

I am very curious to see us in a week and a half against Dayton. Getting them at home is nice. I believe we are the second-best team in the league. Duquesne and VCU are also in the mix there, but day in and day out, we have the pieces to be more consistent than either. Will we be? Let's see.
 
Can't believe I'm thinking about Barclays already but...
1 Dayton
2 Duquesne
3 UR
4 SLU
5 VCU
6/7 URI/SBU
8/9 GMU/UMass
Would be ok...
 
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Saw us as probably a Top 4 team, fringe NCAA, but more likely NIT team with Blake, with a punchers chance to run the A-10 tourney or to actually get us an at large, because we are so dangerous offensively.

Without him though, I think it is a different story. I hope his recovery is quick because I want to see what could happen with him and if Mooney is able to take this talent and get the most out of it.

But all teams hit adversity and Mooney's job is to have this team respond in his absence. He did that very well last night.
 
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@PhillySpider Thanks for all the data. The conclusion that the Spiders are "OK", seems exactly right. As the ads on TV are telling us, Just OK is not OK and it definitely does not mean the Spiders are NCAA bound.

It is hard to believe that OK is such an improvement over where the team has been for the last 2 years or is it that the Spiders are the same as last year with the exception of the number of wins? The team IS more experienced, Nick Sherod IS back, and Francis DID supply additional scoring, so all of those things contributed. Time will tell in regards to the "Francis factor" contribution since it is once again going to be a team of which he is a member but not a participant.

I personally think the "team lost its leading scorer" is overblown. Blake was always playing for Blake. He is the highest scorer because he took the most shots. I don't expect the team to crater because he is out. We will now see what an experienced Richmond team looks like. Granted last night it was almost unwatchable at times and I am hoping that was simply an adjustment period.

Go Spiders!
 
I agree with the last paragraph there, Native. Say least in a general sense. Blake is the leading scorer because he takes the most shots, correct. I don't think I would characterize him sad a selfish player but dinner combination of fearless and careless. It's mostly been good for us but has been a negative at times too. Him being out will get Jacob back to double digits regularly. We really have almost "too many" scorers when we're healthy -- they all can't get 20 a night. We will miss Blake for sure but we're have the pieces to replace his scoring.
 
First, hope Blake a speedy recovery.

Agree with previous posts. He will be sorely missed, but don't see it as catastrophic. Plenty of other firepower.

Aggressiveness and discipline are not mutually exclusive. There is a thin line between fearless and foolish. Custer discovered that. Blake too often straddles the line.
 
This is a NCAA team. Don’t think I need to be redundant about that.

I disagree about stud defenders. Did u see Burton when he was matched up vs Grady last night? Grady was timid. Lockdown. Burton only got 10 minutes so harder to see. Increase his minutes I don’t get it.

Goose he played 35 cause Francis was out but needed more minutes prior to that too. Mooney has stated he’s on way to being 1 of best defenders in the COUNTRY. Ok maybe that’s a bit much but it means he’s already very good.

I’d call them studs I would. The issue w our D is golden & Sherod r just way too below average there. Interior D & rebounding. Burton can guard anyone which is great. tho obv guarding a real big guy is not ideal still he’s our best option. Increase the minutes.

What I’d do for a Garrett type inside for D. We’d be such a tougher matchup but Mooney refused to go get grad transfer for that purpose.

Good points on the FTs. Shooting it great but u right FT attempts r a better indicator for winning. Didn’t realize that low on FT attempts but makes sense. Need to improve there & get to line more besides protecting late leads.
 
So, who are these Garrett type grad transfers we should have gotten?
 
Right, defeatist attitude. Who could we get? No one out there yada yada yada. Got to some NCAA's and it gets easier to get the guys - it becomes a selling point. Should be used anyway. Look - all we need is YOU and we are an NCAA team. You like watching march madness? How about playing in it.

My 2nd favorite team looks like they lost stud interior player - Nathan Mensah - for the year. HUGE blow - similar to Francis. BUT, they went out and got Yanni Wetzel - who had a decent amount of interest - but only averaged 5 pts per game at Vandy, and was not being pursued by the Dukes and Kentuckys. That was huge and allowed them to be an NCAA team this year.

Defeatist attitude some guys have Gkiller. I will give Mooney credit, he has finally started to pick up on the transfer market - albeit about 6 years after the rest of the country.
 
1. Didn’t say equal to Garrett, only to clarify. 2. Talk to the coaches.

Yes, you did. In the post above, you said Mooney refused to go get a Garrett type. I didn't know there was one out there. I was simply asking who that was.
 
Yes, you did. In the post above, you said Mooney refused to go get a Garrett type. I didn't know there was one out there. I was simply asking who that was.

Good lord u debate anything. Does Garrett type mean he’s 100% equal to Garrett? No it means in the ballpark. Then even I clarified - solely for you sake honestly - bc I expected you’d probably require a Garrett clone. I just saw a gap there in roster & i knew we’d be good & I was hoping we did all we could to be the best we could be.

Hey VT I’m curious over on the VA Tech rivals board where u lived before u even found & posted on your “alma mater” board even tho we’re on same platform we’re u treated better, worse or about the same?
 
I'm just trying to figure out who these guys are you were talking about. That's all. Nothing more. Nothing less. And, not that it matters, but yes, Richmond is my alma mater. No cute little quotes necessary. Back to the grad transfer, it works both ways. I think many of you forget that. What might be a perfect fit for us also has to be a perfect fit for the grad transfer. Just keep that in mind.
 
For me the Davidson game, especially the last few minutes, showed we have to keep any team from getting Offensive Rebounds. Davidson's tip outs worked very well. We don't run that often so five guys box out and hit the Defensive boards.
 
For me the Davidson game, especially the last few minutes, showed we have to keep any team from getting Offensive Rebounds. Davidson's tip outs worked very well. We don't run that often so five guys box out and hit the Defensive boards.
That sounds like Davidson’s numbers themselves. They are #302 at getting offensive rebounds but #42 at stopping offensive rebounds (out of 353).
 
Good lord u debate anything. Does Garrett type mean he’s 100% equal to Garrett? No it means in the ballpark. Then even I clarified - solely for you sake honestly - bc I expected you’d probably require a Garrett clone. I just saw a gap there in roster & i knew we’d be good & I was hoping we did all we could to be the best we could be.

Hey VT I’m curious over on the VA Tech rivals board where u lived before u even found & posted on your “alma mater” board even tho we’re on same platform we’re u treated better, worse or about the same?
Pretty sure, he would be found annoying as hell, on any message board.
 
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