Self Banning

[VT4700]

Over-exxagerate much? What should we assume when we are recruiting kids who have either zero, one or two other offers, that they are destined to lead us to the Final Four?

I feel like I keep repeating myself here, but being critical of a player's abilities on the court is not the same as being critical of him as a person. Stop insinuating that it is. This is a place to discuss the basketball program, and evaluation of players' abilities, real or perceived, is a big part of that.

You should assume that our coaches are working their tails off trying to land a couple more guys after we unexpectedly lost a couple players a few weeks ago, and maybe realize that we recruit lots and lots of players and most of them have multiple offers. But, you don't talk about them. It is only when we show interest in a guy that does not have many offers that we hear the sarcastic, negative talk. Awfully predictable.

It is late April. Most guys know where they are going by now. There are not a lot of uncommitted stars out there right now. Buck messed up in April, not October. Not only did he let his teammates and coaches down, but he picked the worst time to do it. Do you really expect us to be able to just go out and find his unsigned, uncommitted replacement this late?

I am not a final four or bust guy like you, so I actually think the guys we are looking at can compete in the A-10 and help us. I also think Sal and the redshirts can help us, and am excited to have Blake for next year. If you don't, that is fine, but why assume if a kid does not have multiple offers from above average programs that means he cannot play at this level when many A-10 rosters have guys that help them who were not heavily recruited?

And, maybe you are not being critical of an 18 year old as a person, but you sure are quick to say he can't play when you have most likely never even seen him play.

As for your final four comment, well, good luck rooting for any A-10 program if that is the standard.

 

[spiderstudent17]

It is late April. Most guys know where they are going by now. There are not a lot of uncommitted stars out there right now.

Within the last 48 hours Dayton picked up a transfer from U. Michigan and a class of ‘18 Frank Policelli who has 3 stars on both ESPN and 247 and offers from Illinois, Cincinnati, and Maryland among many others. Dayton also had 5 players this spring leave their program

https://247sports.com/Recruitment/Frankie-Policelli-98746/RecruitInterests



There are still talented players out there but we either don’t find them or don’t offer them. Mooney likely never offers these transfers because they “don’t fit his system” but truth is it’s probably because he doesn’t think he can land them Maybe that’s true, but I would like to see us offering more players like the ones above and failing. Yes we’ve offered a few top players, but there’s no reason why we don’t make more of an effort to try and land a transfer from a power 5 school or another transfer like Blake Francis (to Mooney’s credit). Instead, we settle for players who have no other D1 offer and hope they become a diamond in the rough type player.

Mooney is like that guy in High School who was too afraid to ask the prettiest girl in school to prom in fear of getting rejected. But as the old adage goes...

“You miss 100% of the shots you don’t take” - Wayne Gretzky - Michael Scott

 

[Eight Legger]

You should assume that our coaches are working their tails off trying to land a couple more guys after we unexpectedly lost a couple players a few weeks ago, and maybe realize that we recruit lots and lots of players and most of them have multiple offers. But, you don't talk about them. It is only when we show interest in a guy that does not have many offers that we hear the sarcastic, negative talk. Awfully predictable.

It is late April. Most guys know where they are going by now. There are not a lot of uncommitted stars out there right now. Buck messed up in April, not October. Not only did he let his teammates and coaches down, but he picked the worst time to do it. Do you really expect us to be able to just go out and find his unsigned, uncommitted replacement this late?

I am not a final four or bust guy like you, so I actually think the guys we are looking at can compete in the A-10 and help us. I also think Sal and the redshirts can help us, and am excited to have Blake for next year. If you don't, that is fine, but why assume if a kid does not have multiple offers from above average programs that means he cannot play at this level when many A-10 rosters have guys that help them who were not heavily recruited?

And, maybe you are not being critical of an 18 year old as a person, but you sure are quick to say he can't play when you have most likely never even seen him play.

As for your final four comment, well, good luck rooting for any A-10 program if that is the standard.

More excuses. We had two open spots coming into the spring even if no one left. So should we just have expected to sign no one worth a damn because "it's late" and "most guys know where they are going by now"?

We have four openings now because two of our captains decided they would rather try to make the NCAA tournament somewhere else. Again, these are Mooney-created problems, so he doesn't get to cry about them and use that as an excuse and neither should you. He needs to fix this, now.

 

[KWeaver]

@VT4700 -- I've been paying pretty close attention to all of this, and certainly adding to it at times. But when has anyone been criticizing our Sweet 16 team? Or its players? I must have missed something. The complaint can be summarized as such: WE HAVE NOT MADE THE NCAA TOURNAMENT SINCE 2011. THE ONE CONSTANT SINCE 2011 IS CHRIS MOONEY. FIX IT!

 

[VT4700]

More excuses. We had two open spots coming into the spring even if no one left. So should we just have expected to sign no one worth a damn because "it's late" and "most guys know where they are going by now"?

We have four openings now because two of our captains decided they would rather try to make the NCAA tournament somewhere else. Again, these are Mooney-created problems, so he doesn't get to cry about them and use that as an excuse and neither should you. He needs to fix this, now.

Funny that you think both left so they could make the NCAA tourney. That's your story and you are sticking to it regardless, right?

 

[ur2K]

Fore left and Buck had one foot out the door before being kicked off the team. Doesn’t matter why they’re gone, but we did lose 2 presumed starters going into next year - that’s a pretty big deal and attrition that you don’t really expect going into year 14 of a coach being somewhere

 

[SouthJerseySpiderFan]

I am not a final four or bust guy like you

Over exaggerating again? I don't believe EL to be thinking in the slightest UR needs to make a FFour! I and if so kind to say on behalf of the other pathetic negative posters, we just want a ONE NCAA BID.

If I remember correctly and please don't hold me exactly to it, but you posted when KF left something like that great things would still happen and even when Buck was thrown out the front door, you mentioned team could still be good if core of GG, NS, and JG stayed.

You know what, I looked them up. Here's your exact quotes.

I wish Khwan the best, but I believe we have a good chance to be really good without him next year.

Even I will say we are in for a long year if we lose one of our top 3. But, if we don't, I like our chances next year with a great PG in Jacob, a solid scorer in Nick, and a great big guy in Grant.

So here's a few questions to get some specific answers from you in what those comments exactly mean W-L record wise. ACCOUNTABILITY from you, something foreign to CM as the coach.

1. What record with Buck playing in 2018-19 for argument sake was your REALLY GOOD going to produce? Also what record MUST CM achieve that in your mind you want him back for 2019-20?

2. What record without Buck was your I LIKE OUR CHANCES WITH JG, NICK, and GRANT going to produce? Also what record MUST CM achieve that in your mind you want him back for 2019-20?

I just want some numbers that add up to say 30 games. Short and sweet. Thank you in advance.

 

[plydogg]

More excuses. We had two open spots coming into the spring even if no one left. So should we just have expected to sign no one worth a damn because "it's late" and "most guys know where they are going by now"?

We have four openings now because two of our captains decided they would rather try to make the NCAA tournament somewhere else. Again, these are Mooney-created problems, so he doesn't get to cry about them and use that as an excuse and neither should you. He needs to fix this, now.

No. Because one of our captains wants to be closer to home and the other got dismissed from the program. I see you're trying to start a revisionist history. You sound like CNN. I know you're knowledgeable, very knowledgeable. I also know you hate Mooney. There is plenty to criticize him for without having to revise what has happened to make it fit the fire mooney narrative.

 

[VT4700]

Over exaggerating again? I don't believe EL to be thinking in the slightest UR needs to make a FFour! I and if so kind to say on behalf of the other pathetic negative posters, we just want a ONE NCAA BID.

If I remember correctly and please don't hold me exactly to it, but you posted when KF left something like that great things would still happen and even when Buck was thrown out the front door, you mentioned team could still be good if core of GG, NS, and JG stayed.

You know what, I looked them up. Here's your exact quotes.



So here's a few questions to get some specific answers from you in what those comments exactly mean W-L record wise. ACCOUNTABILITY from you, something foreign to CM as the coach.

1. What record with Buck playing in 2018-19 for argument sake was your REALLY GOOD going to produce? Also what record MUST CM achieve that in your mind you want him back for 2019-20?

2. What record without Buck was your I LIKE OUR CHANCES WITH JG, NICK, and GRANT going to produce? Also what record MUST CM achieve that in your mind you want him back for 2019-20?

I just want some numbers that add up to say 30 games. Short and sweet. Thank you in advance.

I still feel the same way. That is why I posted what I did. Hard to put a specific record on it, but I expect us to have a pretty good year with Jacob, Nick, and Grant. Things could change for the better or worse when November gets here. I would have to look up every team we play and get a good feel for them before I predict what we will do against them. Sorry, but this silly debate is not worth the time to do that in April. Do we even have an official OOC schedule? I will be glad to give my guess at a record and what would make me happy or unhappy with our possible record closer to the season.

 

[SouthJerseySpiderFan]

I still feel the same way. That is why I posted what I did. Hard to put a specific record on it, but I expect us to have a pretty good year with Jacob, Nick, and Grant. Things could change for the better or worse when November gets here. I would have to look up every team we play and get a good feel for them before I predict what we will do against them. Sorry, but this silly debate is not worth the time to do that in April. Do we even have an official OOC schedule? I will be glad to give my guess at a record and what would make me happy or unhappy with our possible record closer to the season.

LOL! Just like I suspected. How about the 18 A10 games? The A10 will be as weak if not weaker this year.

 

[VT4700]

LOL! Just like I suspected. How about the 18 A10 games? The A10 will be as weak if not weaker this year. Or else ban yourself from posting those pathetic over the top positive posts without some kind of backbone attached to it.

I am thinking above .500 in the A-10 and competing for a top-four seed.

 

[SouthJerseySpiderFan]

I am thinking above .500 in the A-10 and competing for a top-four seed.

TY! That wasn't that hard. Nobody can predict the future but just wanted to get a glimpse of those positive vibes. Even in a weak A10 that would be ambitious (IMO) but HONESTLY hope you are correct.

I only desire a NCAA bid and if a top 4 A10 finish comes about, than no doubt the team would be playing well and anything could happen in the A10 tourney. I might be mad at myself if I reread this post at a later date for being to positive. Go Spiders!

 

[MrTbone]

It’s not negative to question the quality of the recruits we seem to be in on. They have very similar profiles to guys who we signed and saw transfer out after one year here. It’s not a guarantee they’ll end up the same but we should all consider that as a very real possibility.

This is coming from a guy who has been critical of the toxic tone by the way. I don’t see a problem with these criticisms.

 

[Eight Legger]

No. Because one of our captains wants to be closer to home and the other got dismissed from the program. I see you're trying to start a revisionist history. You sound like CNN. I know you're knowledgeable, very knowledgeable. I also know you hate Mooney. There is plenty to criticize him for without having to revise what has happened to make it fit the fire mooney narrative.

Right, Fore just happened to get homesick at the age of 22 after four years of college. He probably also missed his teddy bear and wanted his mommy to sing lullabies to him at night. I mean come on. He wants to win games and will go somewhere with better odds of doing so. Buck wanted out and then was kicked out. He wasn't going to be here either way next year. That's not revisionist history.

 

[VT4700]

Right, Fore just happened to get homesick at the age of 22 after four years of college. He probably also missed his teddy bear and wanted his mommy to sing lullabies to him at night. I mean come on. He wants to win games and will go somewhere with better odds of doing so. Buck wanted out and then was kicked out. He wasn't going to be here either way next year. That's not revisionist history.

I will take Khwan's word over yours. Just a coincidence if he ends up a lot closer to home? And, Buck could have transferred with a good rep had he wanted out. No one made him get kicked off, but keep stiicking with your story. No big deal. Any idea which sure thing tourney team Buck will play for?

 

[SpiderRick]

I'm just trying to figure out how we are going to be better without Fore and Buckingham, than we were WITH them.

4700, please explain. Please don't talk about Sal. You stated that negative posters can't criticize 18 year old kids who haven't even played yet, so that works both ways. Using your logic, you're not allowed to state that Sal will lead us to the promised land.

 

[ur2K]

I’m still trying to get an answer on why some of these folks think Mooney is the guy that should have the keys to the program - beyond he has a huge contract that the school won’t buy out.

 

[urmite]

I will take Khwan's word over yours. Just a coincidence that he ended up a lot closer to home? And, Buck could have transferred with a good rep had he wanted out. No one made him get kicked off, but keep stiicking with your story. No big deal. Any idea which sure thing tourney team Buck will play for?

Ended up? Do we know where that is? If so I missed it...

 

[nathanw19]

Right, Fore just happened to get homesick at the age of 22 after four years of college. He probably also missed his teddy bear and wanted his mommy to sing lullabies to him at night. I mean come on. He wants to win games and will go somewhere with better odds of doing so. Buck wanted out and then was kicked out. He wasn't going to be here either way next year. That's not revisionist history.

Agree on Fore. If “being closer to home” was a reason, the evidence so far points to it not being his top reason. However, his final destination will give us a clearer view of his reasoning.

Disagree on Buck. It hasn’t been established that he actually asked out before whatever caused him to be dismissed came to fruition. There have been rumblings and theories on both sides (that he asked out first and that he asked out after he did whatever got him dismissed). To state it as fact either way is at best misleading.

As for the Michigan kid going to Dayton, I’ll take a proven scorer like Francis over a bench player at Michigan, who averaged just over 5 minutes a game as a sophomore.

As for questioning/commenting on recruits, why else are we here? We only have limited data (usually offer list and some mixtapes with sweet music), and therefore I think we all understand that our assessments are not as complete as our coaches. But that doesn’t mean we can’t give our assessments, and with people having legitimate doubt in our coaches’ recruiting record, it’s fair to not give them the benefit of the doubt. Also, it seems unrealistic to think that a Richmond Basketball Meesage Board won’t have comments (both positive and negative) on recruits and/or current players. Maybe we can do it with a little more decorum, but asking for it to stop is a bridge too far.

 

[Eight Legger]

I will take Khwan's word over yours. Just a coincidence that he ended up a lot closer to home?

He did? And where did he end up?

 

[VT4700]

@VT4700 -- I've been paying pretty close attention to all of this, and certainly adding to it at times. But when has anyone been criticizing our Sweet 16 team? Or its players? I must have missed something. The complaint can be summarized as such: WE HAVE NOT MADE THE NCAA TOURNAMENT SINCE 2011. THE ONE CONSTANT SINCE 2011 IS CHRIS MOONEY. FIX IT!

Someone posted that Mooney even screwed up the sweet 16 team.

 

[VT4700]

I'm just trying to figure out how we are going to be better without Fore and Buckingham, than we were WITH them.

4700, please explain. Please don't talk about Sal. You stated that negative posters can't criticize 18 year old kids who haven't even played yet, so that works both ways. Using your logic, you're not allowed to state that Sal will lead us to the promised land.

Well, the easy answer is we were 12-20 with them, so, yes, I think we will be better than that next year.

So, I canmot say I think Sal will help us next year? Really? Same for the redshirts? I never said Sal will "lead us to the promised land". I said I expect him to be a good piece to help out Jacob, Nick, and Grant. Also, I did not say anything about commenting on recruits that have not played. My point was they probably have never heard of them and have never seen them play. So, just because I said we shouldn't criticize 18 year olds who we have not seen play means we also should not be excited about recruits like Sal, who we know a lot about and have seen a lot of promising footage on? Okay. Whatever, man. Geez, tough "rules" here. Now I know why the self ban is so popular.

 

[nathanw19]

Someone posted that Mooney even screwed up the sweet 16 team.

If I remember their argument correctly, it was more that the team achieved success inspite of Mooney because of their talent. It was more of a “Mooney was never a good coach” argument than a “he screwed up the sweet 16 team.” At least that’s how I took it.

 

[VT4700]

Ended up? Do we know where that is? If so I missed it...

Sorry about that. I fixed it. "If" not "that". My mistake.

 

[VT4700]

If I remember their argument correctly, it was more that the team achieved success inspite of Mooney because of their talent. It was more of a “Mooney was never a good coach” argument than a “he screwed up the sweet 16 team.” At least that’s how I took it.

That was the argument at first, but then something like "Mooney even screwed that team up" was added, which makes it really hard to have a reasonable debate.

 

[97spiderfan]

You should assume that our coaches are working their tails off trying to land a couple more guys after we unexpectedly lost a couple players a few weeks ago, and maybe realize that we recruit lots and lots of players and most of them have multiple offers. But, you don't talk about them. It is only when we show interest in a guy that does not have many offers that we hear the sarcastic, negative talk. Awfully predictable.

It is late April. Most guys know where they are going by now. There are not a lot of uncommitted stars out there right now. Buck messed up in April, not October. Not only did he let his teammates and coaches down, but he picked the worst time to do it. Do you really expect us to be able to just go out and find his unsigned, uncommitted replacement this late?

I am not a final four or bust guy like you, so I actually think the guys we are looking at can compete in the A-10 and help us. I also think Sal and the redshirts can help us, and am excited to have Blake for next year. If you don't, that is fine, but why assume if a kid does not have multiple offers from above average programs that means he cannot play at this level when many A-10 rosters have guys that help them who were not heavily recruited?

And, maybe you are not being critical of an 18 year old as a person, but you sure are quick to say he can't play when you have most likely never even seen him play.

As for your final four comment, well, good luck rooting for any A-10 program if that is the standard.

What I don't get is the poor planning by our coaching staff. We literally had one offer out at the end of the season, Sy Chatman and at the time we had 1 open slot. I guess we were really hoping we would land Sy. If you went on verbalcommits you would see most other A-10 schools had anywhere from 5 to more than 10 offers out to other players at the end of the year.

Its like our coaches didn't even consider that after a 12 win year, that some of our players might want to go elsewhere or even consider the current transferring trend in college basketball. It is also speaks to how far their finger is from the pulse of the team that the defection of Khwan caught them by complete surprise.

So, yes they are working their a**es off now, because it seems like they took a big ole recruiting nap for much of the season, not expecting any roster defections and now are in stuck trying to fill 3 open slots and not having any relationships with 2018 players.

Our coaching staff has an exceedingly difficult time landing kids with whom they have established good relationships with, so know the task is that much more difficult trying to come in last minute and say come here. This is why we are looking are bringing in big men with 1 low mid major offer and just signed a kid with literally not other D-1 offers.

 

[97spiderfan]

Within the last 48 hours Dayton picked up a transfer from U. Michigan and a class of ‘18 Frank Policelli who has 3 stars on both ESPN and 247 and offers from Illinois, Cincinnati, and Maryland among many others. Dayton also had 5 players this spring leave their program

https://247sports.com/Recruitment/Frankie-Policelli-98746/RecruitInterests

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There are still talented players out there but we either don’t find them or don’t offer them. Mooney likely never offers these transfers because they “don’t fit his system” but truth is it’s probably because he doesn’t think he can land them Maybe that’s true, but I would like to see us offering more players like the ones above and failing. Yes we’ve offered a few top players, but there’s no reason why we don’t make more of an effort to try and land a transfer from a power 5 school or another transfer like Blake Francis (to Mooney’s credit). Instead, we settle for players who have no other D1 offer and hope they become a diamond in the rough type player.

Mooney is like that guy in High School who was too afraid to ask the prettiest girl in school to prom in fear of getting rejected. But as the old adage goes...

“You miss 100% of the shots you don’t take” - Wayne Gretzky - Michael Scott

Rhody just added a guard, Omar Silverio, with 15 offers, including multiple A-10 offers, VCU, Dayton, SLU, UMass.

 

[keefusb]

Really, hasn't the issue all along been Mooney's inability to consistently recruit and retain A10 caliber players? The number of recruiting misses since 2011 is very telling. He caught lightning in a bottle with Kevin Anderson, who was overlooked by many because of lack of size. In the same mold CM subsequently brought in CL, K0, SDJ, and JG, who were good players, but none of them the impact player that KA was. W/o KA, there would not have been any NCAA appearances in 2010 and 2011.

Mooney ought to be writing KA a check every month...

 

[ur2K]

We have a few good players - just not a roster with enough good players to be consistently good in a good league. Mooney is a terrible GM

 

[97spiderfan]

We have a few good players - just not a roster with enough good players to be consistently good in a good league. Mooney is a terrible GM

2K, to your GM comment. Was just on verbal commits and we had a total of 8 players on scholarship who would be seniors this year. Only 1,of them, JJ is still on the team.

The other 7 players in case you forgot:

Friendshuh
Stansbury
Fore
Smithen
Diekvoss
Josh Jones
Piskatache

That is a 12.5 retention rate.

 

[VT4700]

Really, hasn't the issue all along been Mooney's inability to consistently recruit and retain A10 caliber players? The number of recruiting misses since 2011 is very telling. He caught lightning in a bottle with Kevin Anderson, who was overlooked by many because of lack of size. In the same mold CM subsequently brought in CL, K0, SDJ, and JG, who were good players, but none of them the impact player that KA was. W/o KA, there would not have been any NCAA appearances in 2010 and 2011.

Mooney ought to be writing KA a check every month...

The KA argument is a bad one. Take away the best player on other A-10 teams that have made the tourney, and nearly all of them would not have made the tourney.

 

[gospidersgo]

2K, to your GM comment. Was just on verbal commits and we had a total of 8 players on scholarship who would be seniors this year. Only 1,of them, JJ is still on the team.

The other 7 players in case you forgot:

Friendshuh
Stansbury
Fore
Smithen
Diekvoss
Josh Jones
Piskatache

That is a 12.5 retention rate.

Sobering

 

[keefusb]

The KA argument is a bad one. Take away the best player on other A-10 teams that have made the tourney, and nearly all of them would not have made the tourney.

The KA argument is a great one if you consider the timing, the long-term positive impact on CM's contract and compensation, and the long-term negative impact on program success. Not saying you take KA away, but if you replace him with any of our other PG's since he graduated, we would not have been to the NCAA's in 2010 or 2011, nor would CM have the contract he currently has.

No single player since Newman has had the impact on Spider MBB that KA had.

 

[VT4700]

Not saying you take KA away, but if you replace him with any of our other PG's since he graduated, we would not have been to the NCAA's in 2010 or 2011, nor would CM have the contract he currently has.

We can never find out and know for sure, so no one is right or wrong, but I think Ced Lindsay and Kendall Anthony might beg to differ.

 

[VT4700]

No single player since Newman has had the impact on Spider MBB that KA had.

I am having a hard time understanding how this makes our situation that different from several other programs, especially mid majors. If a coach had some success and got a nice contract out of it, chances are the reason would be because he had a star player. Take that star player away from numerous other programs, and you could say the same about them and their coach.

The same is true in other sports as well. Take a star QB and pitcher away from teams and ask yourself if they would be as good. The KA argument seems awfully weak.

 

[keefusb]

My chief point was to underline the lack of impact players that CM has recruited during his tenure. No doubt he has landed some very good players (TJC, CL, K0, TA, etc.), but not enough good players to get it done consistently, and an inordinate number of huge misses and players who transferred out. KA was the only HOF-caliber player that CM has brought on board, and KA had a major influence on CM's contract and pay.

 

[keefusb]

If a coach had some success and got a nice contract out of it, chances are the reason would be because he had a star player. Take that star player away from numerous other programs, and you could say the same about them and their coach.

Difference is, most of those other coaches have been back to the NCAA's in the last 7-8 years. Mostly because they were able to recruit at a consistently high level. CM has not.

 

[VT4700]

Ced was averaging 18.3 ppg and 4.0 apg before his season ending injury.

KA averaged 17.8 ppg and 2.7 apg the year he won player of the year.

 

[VT4700]

No single player since Newman has had the impact on Spider MBB that KA had.

Kenny Atkinson made a heck of an impact. 2 tourneys including a sweet 16 and an 18.9 ppg average his senior year. What a player!

 

[keefusb]

Whose jersey is hanging in the RC?

The Kenny Atkinson reference is immaterial he didn't play during the CM era. Ced was a very good player, but he was no Kevin Anderson.