I think ...
2011: Kendall Anthony, Trey Davis, Alonzo Nelson-Ododa, Luke Piotrowski
2012: Terry Allen, Deion Taylor
2013: Shawndre Jones, Josh Jones, Tim Singleton, Paul Friendshuh
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- Thread starter SFspidur
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2011: Kendall Anthony, Trey Davis, Alonzo Nelson-Ododa, Luke Piotrowski
2012: Terry Allen, Deion Taylor
2013: Shawndre Jones, Josh Jones, Tim Singleton, Paul Friendshuh
Thanks!
Doesn't seem like too much of a stretch on many of those. But some didn't turn out as expected.
And it was easy to see when someone played their first season, but would have needed to look up who redshirted or who left.
Friendshuh was a 2014 who redshirted, and he came in with Fore (he also redshirted), Diekvoss, and Smithen. And then 2015 had Johnson, Pistokache, and Dominaus.
Those three 2013-2015 classes were killers...to really only get SDJ and Fore (and maybe Johnson) as solid players out of them was a disaster.
Those three 2013-2015 classes were killers...to really only get SDJ and Fore (and maybe Johnson) as solid players out of them was a disaster.
I agree. But with a very high batting average on really good players, we're 62-56 with only one appearance in the A10 quarterfinals! What does this tell us?
Wow, that's a weak group. Only TJ was impact and him and SDJ couldn't win. Lame argument here. Mooney is still very behind on the transfer game.
Mooney has a terrible history of having players regress as their career goes on; sparrow, davis, Deion Taylor, ANO, and probably some others that I’m missing. That’s simply isn’t supposed to happen and doesn’t happen often anywhere else.
Look, I’m not a big CM proponent at this point but that’s some bad cherry-picking of data there.
Sparrow was never great to begin with. Deion had a back injury that never got right. Davis was about what we expected but got slotted at 2G quite a bit when he had neither a great handle or outside shot, that was partly situational and partly bad coaching. I would agree that ANO was not developed properly and got in the CM doghouse.
Lots of other guys have developed well at UR. I don’t think CM is poor at player development so much as he swings and misses on a lot of low level prospects that never have much chance of developing to begin with.
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Exactly. Every team and coach that has players that don't develop. I actually think he develops players pretty well, but it just his recruiting has been so sub-par that we bring in guys who are not actually A-10 level players and he has to try to make them into them.
And this is still an issue. Look at the level of recruit that the good programs in our league bring in (SLU, Dayton, VCU) and they are always much more highly recruited than the guys Mooney brings here. It's why those programs are perennially competing for the league championship and NCAA bids and why we only can strive for that once or twice every 4 year cycle.
I think you are onto something. There's definitely no other program where players don't work out. This sounds scientific.
I think its the opposite. I think Mooney has a terrible track record of developing players that DON'T play significant minutes their Frosh/Soph year. I am not saying these guys need to be all A10 players or studs, but when we have kids graduate, this is the reason we are rebuilding and not "re-loading". The kid who has not played much do to players in front of them, when given the chance is just not ready to either make an impact or just be an A10 caliber player when called upon. All of Mooney's best teams, including the current one - have the luxury of having 4-5 guys all playing together for 2-3 years and playing lots of minutes early in the career (albeit on bad teams).
I think Skrocki was a good example of that. only 3 PPG freshman year. It was a good team so he had relatively minor role, but the Beilein staff developed and they said at end of frosh year don't worry he'll be very ready to take on big role next & were right.
Cayo had a major bump from freshman to sophomore year.
Burton obviously did too, winning A10 most improved.
TJ had the redshirt year but his sophomore year was substantially better than his Niagra year, and then he made a drastic jump as a junior.
Greg Robbins hardly saw any time as a freshman or sophomore but played a role as a junior and a big role as a senior.
Burton obviously did too, winning A10 most improved.
TJ had the redshirt year but his sophomore year was substantially better than his Niagra year, and then he made a drastic jump as a junior.
Greg Robbins hardly saw any time as a freshman or sophomore but played a role as a junior and a big role as a senior.
All of these are valid but that’s a remarkably small sample size for 16 years here. I expect we could dig up a few more but it seems reasonably fair to say that CM is not particularly wide at player development. I think a lot of that is due to not having adequate bench talent to spend time developing. Getting better recently, we’ll see how he does.
Not sure what to make of this, but here are the total number of players from each team named to an all A10 team since Davidson joined the A10 for the 14/15 season:
Players are counted multiple times if they were named to an All-A10 team in multiple seasons. Richmond has had the 2nd most players named to an all conference team in the past 7 seasons. I am sure everyone will find a way to make this data fit their narrative, haha.
Code:
DAY 16
UR 14
DAV 13
SBU 13
URI 10
VCU 10
SLU 7
SJU 7
GW 6
GMU 5
UMASS 4
DUQ 3
LAS 2
FOR 1Players are counted multiple times if they were named to an All-A10 team in multiple seasons. Richmond has had the 2nd most players named to an all conference team in the past 7 seasons. I am sure everyone will find a way to make this data fit their narrative, haha.
Cayo had a major bump from freshman to sophomore year.
But Robbins looked pretty awful for two and a half years, had a decent second half of his junior season and then senior year seemed to be a different player who could do a little bit of everything. Didn't he break Kobe's high school scoring record? I could never figure out how someone with that history wouldn't have been lighting it up from day one for us.
Robbins is definitely the exception to this rule during the Mooney era, at least from what I can remember. (It's getting to be a pretty long era, and my recollection of things that happened 16 years ago ain't what it used to be.)
But Robbins looked pretty awful for two and a half years, had a decent second half of his junior season and then senior year seemed to be a different player who could do a little bit of everything. Didn't he break Kobe's high school scoring record? I could never figure out how someone with that history wouldn't have been lighting it up from day one for us.
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And a whole lot more where that came from. This is beyond a silly debate here. We, like most mid majors, aren't landing too many 3, 4, and 5 stars here. We have to develop pretty much every guy we recruit, even the guys who played a lot and had great stats as a freshman. Kevin Anderson wasn't a can't miss All American as a freshman. He got better and better and became player of the year in the conference. Kendall clearly got better and better each year year. Same with all the guys now who played a lot as freshman. They have all gotten way better from their freshman years. Do you go from 13 to 24 wins in one season without developing?
But, if we want to mention guys who did not average a lot of points or minutes early in their careers, and go on to have great careers, Gonzalez, Harper, Garrett, Butler, Brothers, Ced, DWill, Terry Allen, ShawnDre, and Khwan all come to mind, and I am likely leaving more out.
VT I agree with most of what you said, but I just wanted to point out here that a 13 win season should not be acceptable here under ANY circumstance. Much less back-to-back seasons with 12 and 13 wins. Completely unacceptable for a coach who is over a decade in to have that happen and not face any consequences. It shows total recruiting failure.
For reference, VCU has not had a win total that low since 1997.
Strong disagree. Player development, or lack thereof, is what led us to those two atrocious seasons. A coach with Mooney’s tenure and salary should not be underachieving at developing for such a stretch that years 13 and 14 are back to the same as years 1 and 2 on the job.
You can’t praise him for developing a 13 win team into a 24 win team without also noting that he took a 22 win team to 12 and 13 win seasons first.
fair enough. and there was clearly a recruiting issue 6 or 7 years ago. too many misses set us way back. we've gone over that. any support I show for the current staff is based on where I feel we are now. the recruiting has been strong. we have the talent to challenge each year now.
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Ply, I hear you and agree with a lot of what you are saying here. 12 and 13 win seasons are never acceptable. Never. Down years should be .500, not 12 and 13 wins. Those were two terrible years, no other way to say it. I don't think it was player development as the reason though. I think the recruiting was down ( not every year will be a strong recruiting year), and the top new guys that we thought would really help like Solly and Jesse didn't do much at all. If Solly and Jesse went on and developed elsewhere, then maybe get on our player development, but it never happened. Add it all up, and the recipe was not there for winning right away after losing TJ and ShawnDre. But, I will say it again, even with recruiting misses, a couple guys not panning out as expected, and losing Nick like we did, we should never only win 12 or 13 games. Even if you disagree and want to say player development was the reason for the two down years, I think there are way too many examples the past 16 years of guys developing into really good if not great players to counter any kind of Mooney doesn't develop players talk.
I had a coach whom I fondly recall using the phrase “I can’t make chicken salad out of chicken shit.” You can’t develop guys with no discernible talent which was the case for several years. It’s a lazy argument to say CM doesn’t develop talent. It’s equally lazy to give him a pass for the horrible multiple years of bad recruiting.
Recruiting seems much improved so it’s up to coaching to now make use of the improved talent.
Recruiting seems much improved so it’s up to coaching to now make use of the improved talent.
Struggling mightily to pull the thread back to Rowan...got an offer from the Ducks.
Well, I wouldn't want to disappoint you, fan2011.
Every team on that list with 7 or more All-A10 players has won at least one conference championship (reg season or tourney) over that time frame.
Except one.
8legs1dream
Team Manager
Well, I wouldn't want to disappoint you, fan2011.
Every team on that list with 7 or more All-A10 players has won at least one conference championship (reg season or tourney) over that time frame.
Except one.
quite a few NCAA tournament appearances in that list during that time frame as well.
Mooney's Irish for God's sake. If he can't close the deal on this one, he oughta just give up!
8legs1dream
Team Manager
Get this young man in for a recruiting dinner at Siné Irish Pub, the corned beef and cabbage with MoonMan would surely seal the deal.
Nope, got be a burger and fries at the Tavern. That is Mooney's spot, must not deviate from the plan, ever.
Mooney: "Rowan, this is my favorite spot in Richmond -- Sin-EE. It's a Mexican place, I think!"
