Realistic post season expectations this year

[SpiderRick]

NCAA or bust

^^This is accurate but put me down for the NCAA as genuine. Also Philly I think at least half of the outsized expectations & rose colored glasses came from Ulla over the years. Maybe there was more of it, don't think too much last couple years.

I'll fly solo on this. But believe me I certainly get why others are not there. Think this is best team we've had in quite a while. One main weakness which is why I really wanted Mooney to fill that last ship with a grad transfer. Could bite us. Also why I wanted tougher schedule.

But mainly it has sucked going into a year with low expectations and feeling there is no real shot at an at large. That's no fun. In last 8 years I'd say I felt that once, maybe borderline another year at best. So heading into year 9 I'm excited that I think we have a team that can do it, been way too few and far in between.

Also Mooney feels NCAAA is reasonable. That's telling for a number of reasons. And program just doubled down on #bestclassever. There is no chance of bestclassever unless NCAA this year. So also excited that if we don't reach NCAA you can't bring a 0 for last 9 coach back after those gauntlets were put down...unless you have a bumbling goof of an AD.

So put me down for NCAA, and also put me down for zero circumstances in which Mooney should return if we don't get there. First team out? Sorry goodbye.

Go Spiders, get it done.

You're missing the point my friend. It's not the team, it's the coach. And it's not the recruiting so much as it is his in-game management. He's a bad sideline coach, period. You can change out the players and assistant coaches but as long as we have the same head coach we can forget NCAA.

He wasn't always like this. I really believe the Charlotte game changed him.

 

[spiderman]

you can say it wasn't the recruiting, but we have better top end talent and a much better looking bench this year than we've had in a while.

this whole "we lose because he's the worst in game coach" stuff is so overblown. we haven't been winning because CM didn't put together a good enough team. I believe he has now.

 

[SouthJerseySpiderFan]

this whole "we lose because he's the worst in game coach" stuff is so overblown. we haven't been winning because CM didn't put together a good enough team. I believe he has now.

I hope Sman you're right about the team being good enough now. And say the anti-Mooney crowd disregards any "worst game coach" talk. So still the easy response is how many years has it taken? I believe most coaches wouldn't have been given that much time to reach the NCAA tourney again.

 

[VT4700]

I hope Sman you're right about the team being good enough now. And say the anti-Mooney crowd disregards any "worst game coach" talk. So still the easy response is how many years has it taken? I believe most coaches wouldn't have been given that much time to reach the NCAA tourney again.

I agree with this. I think that fact that we recently had 12-6 and 13-5 A-10 seasons, with another good year headed that way before Ced's injury, combined with our refusing to let some guys in who would have helped dramatically, makes Mooney's case a little different. I do think it is fair to ask why a coach gets this many consecutive years without dancing, but I also think it's fair to look at our good seasons and close calls, our talent level now, and give him another year or two.

 

[Not-A-Homer]

I agree with this. I think that fact that we recently had 12-6 and 13-5 A-10 seasons, with another good year headed that way before Ced's injury, combined with our refusing to let some guys in who would have helped dramatically, makes Mooney's case a little different. I do think it is fair to ask why a coach gets this many consecutive years without dancing, but I also think it's fair to look at our good seasons and close calls, our talent level now, and give him another year or two.

The "close calls" are failures because of coaching. The in-game management problem was evident in year 1. Trust me, I and others were discussing the same coaching issues then.

There has been "sufficient" talent to make the NCAA tournament multiple years. No-one said that there has been too much talent, but a listing of players (Cline, Anthony, Allen, and many more) during Mooney's tenure makes it clear that he has had enough player talent.

The failure is coaching. Is this year's talent enough to overcome Mooney's weaknesses (as Anderson & company did) time will tell. I suspect not, as it would be quite the turnaround to lose 20-games two-years in a row, and then make the NCAA. The odds go up the year after this season.

 

[spiderman]

So still the easy response is how many years has it taken? I believe most coaches wouldn't have been given that much time to reach the NCAA tourney again.

whether the school wants to admit it or not, I believe the large financial commitment is the main reason he was given this much time to fix things.
now that the numbers are more manageable, it'll be interesting to see how his contract is handled going forward if the team shows major improvement.

 

[VT4700]

The "close calls" are failures because of coaching. The in-game management problem was evident in year 1. Trust me, I and others were discussing the same coaching issues then.

There has been "sufficient" talent to make the NCAA tournament multiple years. No-one said that there has been too much talent, but a listing of players (Cline, Anthony, Allen, and many more) during Mooney's tenure makes it clear that he has had enough player talent.

The failure is coaching. Is this year's talent enough to overcome Mooney's weaknesses (as Anderson & company did) time will tell. I suspect not, as it would be quite the turnaround to lose 20-games two-years in a row, and then make the NCAA. The odds go up the year after this season.

You talk about KA, Harp, and others that year like they were highly recruited future NBA stars. Couldn't it be argued that coaching had a lot to with their improvement? You don't win 29 games and go to the sweet 16 without NBA players on your roster because your players bailed out bad coaching. You just don't. I loved both of those tourney teams, and no question the players were talented, but I think it is pretty weak to get on here and say they overcame our coach's weaknesses.

 

[spider23]

You talk about KA, Harp, and others that year like they were highly recruited future NBA stars. Couldn't it be argued that coaching had a lot to with their improvement? You don't win 29 games and go to the sweet 16 without NBA players on your roster because your players bailed out bad coaching. You just don't. I loved both of those tourney teams, and no question the players were talented, but I think it is pretty weak to get on here and say they overcame our coach's weaknesses.

Harp had a Providence and multiple A10 offers. He had his most development after working with a big man coach in Boston offseason prior to his senior year.

 

[Spider2020]

You don't win 29 games and go to the sweet 16 without NBA players on your roster because your players bailed out bad coaching.

I wasn’t around back then, but didn’t Harper get drafted?

 

[VT4700]

I wasn’t around back then, but didn’t Harper get drafted?

Yes. But, he has scored 45 points in his NBA career. I loved Harp. He was awesome for us, but just not an NBA player.

 

[GaySpider]

The "close calls" are failures because of coaching. The in-game management problem was evident in year 1. Trust me, I and others were discussing the same coaching issues then.

There has been "sufficient" talent to make the NCAA tournament multiple years. No-one said that there has been too much talent, but a listing of players (Cline, Anthony, Allen, and many more) during Mooney's tenure makes it clear that he has had enough player talent.

The failure is coaching. Is this year's talent enough to overcome Mooney's weaknesses (as Anderson & company did) time will tell. I suspect not, as it would be quite the turnaround to lose 20-games two-years in a row, and then make the NCAA. The odds go up the year after this season.

Mooney is able to get one or two "stars" per year, on what are generally weak teams.
Mooney has no choice but to run everything though the stars, and those stars get stats, making people who don't look past the surface think those players are world beaters.
But in fact, those are just "sugar high" results of an over all poor team with no options.
And I'd point to the repeated failure to get to the NCAA as support for my theory.
I've been trying to find the plus/minus rankings of A10 players to better prove my point, but I'll just have to say this is my opinion currently.

 

[GaySpider]

Doing more sit-ups won’t improve his cardiovascular fitness. And cutting carbs would just sap his energy, giving him less energy to expend on defense.

In all seriousness, Grant is listed at a lighter weight than last year, and I think he’s probably at a good weight now.

So he's been on paleo since he got here?

 

[spiderman]

"In all, I believe about 10 schools offered Justin," he added. "The main thing for him was that Chris Mooney is going to be around for a long time. Justin and Coach Mooney have a close relationship, so that played a role in his decision to attend Richmond."
Harper's decision to remain close to home was much more difficult that it might appear. While the 6-foot-8, 195-pound combo guard was interested in a number of Division I programs, Richmond and Providence were the teams to beat in his recruitment.
It was an extremely difficult decision for Harper, but one that had to be made.
"This was a very, very difficult decision for Justin," said Gordon. "Richmond and Providence were his top choices, but Justin just felt real good about Richmond and Coach Mooney. He feels that he can come in and be an immediate impact player for Richmond.
"Richmond is just 20 or 25 minutes away from Meadowbrook High School, so Justin's family can watch him play," he added. "I don't think that was a major factor in his decision. His relationship with Coach Mooney and the opportunity to step-in and play right away were two pretty big factors."
--------------------------
"combo guard? lol

 

[Captain Anderson]

You can't take any of the successes of the 2010 and 2011 teams away from Mooney. Those were his guys that he recruited, developed, and coached to two NCAA bids, great runs through the A-10 tournament and a Sweet Sixteen. The problem is how many great/good coaches go 8 years without getting back to the tournament only to recapture that mojo almost a decade later? We really don't have many recent examples because non-performing coaches are fired well before they make it that long (Tell's you something). 8 years is a pretty large sample size just to have bad luck. Bottomline: the coaching and recruiting hasn't been good enough post 2011. I think our fans would be amazed at how quickly a really good coach could turn us into a consistent winner in the A-10 and have us back in the NCAA's. Of course the administration has to be on board with us hiring a coach who can improve our recruiting (ie admissions) but I think a lot of folks have been numbed by the Mooney tenure at this point.

 

[MrTbone]

I agree with this. I think that fact that we recently had 12-6 and 13-5 A-10 seasons, with another good year headed that way before Ced's injury, combined with our refusing to let some guys in who would have helped dramatically, makes Mooney's case a little different. I do think it is fair to ask why a coach gets this many consecutive years without dancing, but I also think it's fair to look at our good seasons and close calls, our talent level now, and give him another year or two.

I was always pretty willing to give CM some slack. He has had some decent "close" years, some not so close years, and then recently some really bad years. The primary counterpoint to not giving him another year is that we now have a pretty long history of not getting it done, so it's hard to feel better about the chances of something changing.

Would he eventually get there again? Of course, but for me personally, I'd feel better about changing the leadership and associated strategy.

 

[ChoppinBroccoli]

how many great/good coaches go 8 years without getting back to the tournament only to recapture that mojo almost a decade later? We really don't have many recent examples

Do we have any?

 

[Spider2020]

So he's been on paleo since he got here?

I don’t know what you’re suggesting here. If you’re suggesting he go keto and cut out carbs (your initial suggestion), then he would start to oxidize fatty acids as his only source of energy. That leads to fat loss, but also lower energy levels, as all stores of glycogen get depleted. I don’t see how being paleo has anything to do with that. I think Grant is in fine shape for his style of play, and going on some type of fad diet would be more harmful than beneficial to his play.

I also think it’s funny that this is something we’re discussing here. We need the season to start already

 

[Not-A-Homer]

You talk about KA, Harp, and others that year like they were highly recruited future NBA stars. Couldn't it be argued that coaching had a lot to with their improvement? You don't win 29 games and go to the sweet 16 without NBA players on your roster because your players bailed out bad coaching. You just don't. I loved both of those tourney teams, and no question the players were talented, but I think it is pretty weak to get on here and say they overcame our coach's weaknesses.

No-one but you said that the sweet 16 team was loaded with highly recruited future NBA stars.

That team became what they were for 4 significant reasons.
1) They were fortunate to "play a lot" as young players. They were able to grow and develop primarily because of significant time on the floor in their early careers
2) Many of them had the opportunity to play multiple years "together" as a team. More than most Mooney squads
3) They had an EXCEPTIONAL guard who was able to dominate a game. He was also the most "clutch" Spider player that I can recall in the Mooney era. He made big plays, and big shots over and over when the team needed them
4) That team had more depth than any in the Mooney era

** Note that the current group is similar to the sweet 16 team in many ways.

The current players certainly have played early in their careers, and a large number of them have or will play together for extended years. This year's team does have more depth than most Mooney teams (though it is still unproven). This year's team also has quality guards, though it is unproven whether they will be as good as Anderson.

This is why I say that the current bunch is likely to make the NCAA tournament next year. Two 20 loss seasons in a row make it much more unlikely for this year.

Mooney is a mediocre to average coach. His in-game management is well below average.

Is it possible for a mediocre coach to take a mature team, loaded with veteran players, into the NCAA tournament, sure it is, happens every year. That is why I predict it will happen next season.

It won't be because Mooney suddenly made great improvement, nor will it be because he suddenly coached his ass off for 1-year.

 

[SouthJerseySpiderFan]

. Is it possible for a mediocre coach to take a mature team, loaded with veteran players, into the NCAA tournament, sure it is. That is why I predict it will happen next season.

I agree with above could happen ..... and thoughts of beyond. Mooney probably gets an extension and has Crabtree, Burton, Sal, Gust, Woj, Grace as his new core. Needs to improve recruiting/transfers or worst case scenario is long time till next NCAA tourney appearance. I know, glass half-empty thinking but Mooney's teams results too long now unfortunately have earned it. Go Spiders!

 

[CAAguy]

This year is the moment of truth for UR and Mooney. If you don’t dance March 2020 and Golden/Sherod/Francis get their UR diplomas May 2020, the vultures will probably be lining up for their services as grad transfers (a la Fore, Nelson-Ododa). I’m sure Butler will reach out to Grant Golden (Bryce Golden) and so forth.

 

[spiderman]

That team became what they were for 4 significant reasons.

to me, that team became what they were for 1 significant reason.
Justin Harper became the player he was capable of becoming.
we had enough pieces to be a good team if Harp was still the guy he was before that season. but not a great team.
I don't know what clicked for him. Mooney ... outside training ... maybe just senior year confidence and recognizing it was now or never. but he became special and was the difference.

 

[97spiderfan]

to me, that team became what they were for 1 significant reason.
Justin Harper became the player he was capable of becoming.
we had enough pieces to be a good team if Harp was still the guy he was before that season. but not a great team.
I don't know what clicked for him. Mooney ... outside training ... maybe just senior year confidence and recognizing it was now or never. but he became special and was the difference.

Agreed, Harp was huge his senior year. Kevin Anderson was the unquestioned best player on the team those two years. Why he is our second leading scorer all time and name is in the rafters.

Neither of those years happen without KA. Mooney has been trying to find his KA since that time but despite a bevy of really good guards, none have quite measured up to what KA could do on both sides of the court. KA made play after play and was able to cover up a lot of Mooney's coaching deficiencies.

I do give all of the credit to Mooney though, he recruited those teams, coached those teams, and developed all of those guys. That was 8 years ago, which is an eternity in college athletics.

 

[ur2K]

That team also could defend. We had very good defensive players outside of the guys that carried the load on offense mentioned above. Smitty, Martel, Garrett.

 

[Captain Anderson]

Agreed, Harp was huge his senior year. Kevin Anderson was the unquestioned best player on the team those two years. Why he is our second leading scorer all time and name is in the rafters.

Neither of those years happen without KA. Mooney has been trying to find his KA since that time but despite a bevy of really good guards, none have quite measured up to what KA could do on both sides of the court. KA made play after play and was able to cover up a lot of Mooney's coaching deficiencies.

I do give all of the credit to Mooney though, he recruited those teams, coached those teams, and developed all of those guys. That was 8 years ago, which is an eternity in college athletics.

It seemed like before KA Mooney recruited taller, combo guards. I know some of that was out of necessity from what he inherited when he first got to UR but he seems to keep chasing that formula with diminutive PG's/backcourts. Now I understand that we can recruit many of those guys because they kind of fall thru the cracks of the power 5 schools due of their size but I'd love to have a Gonzalvez sized guy in the backcourt for defensive length.

 

[Captain Anderson]

That team also could defend. We had very good defensive players outside of the guys that carried the load on offense mentioned above. Smitty, Martel, Garrett.

Yes, and all 3 of those guys had some height and wingspan to defend multiple positions. That's why we had real depth on those 2010-11 teams. That team was much more athletic than our current group and you saw that on the defensive end with the ability to guard and rim protect (Garrett and to some extent Harper). Doesn't mean our current group isn't athletic but they don't have the size or athleticism of that famed team nor have they showed the ability to lock down an opponent on defense.

 

[97spiderfan]

It seemed like before KA Mooney recruited taller, combo guards. I know some of that was out of necessity from what he inherited when he first got to UR but he seems to keep chasing that formula with diminutive PG's/backcourts. Now I understand that we can recruit many of those guys because they kind of fall thru the cracks of the power 5 schools due of their size but I'd love to have a Gonzalvez sized guy in the backcourt for defensive length.

Those teams were strong across the board. They had great guards, but also excellent wing players and big men. All of this team since them have been missing one of those ingredients. It has mainly been in my opinion, really good wing players.

Kevin Smith, Martel, and Butler none of them were all league players, but all were great defenders, glue guys, and hit shots when you needed them to. I honestly think with Burton, Cayo, Sal actually might be more talented than those 3. None of them are Harper though either. I also need to see on court leadership. Butler was crafty as get out and got under the other teams skins. Kevin Smith was the heart beat of those teams.

 

[spiderman]

That team also could defend. We had very good defensive players outside of the guys that carried the load on offense mentioned above. Smitty, Martel, Garrett.

totally different team structure. we always say we want 5 good shooters/offensive players on the floor. yet our best team wasn't built that way. Martel, Lindsay, Smitty and Garrett hardly scored at all on the sweet 16 team but they had roles and they all defended while Harp and KA carried the offensive load.

we have way more offensive firepower today. maybe more than we need. and not enough defense-first guys.

 

[ur2K]

Completely agree. I feel (I hope I'm wrong) that we have a collection of good individual players (mostly that lean towards being good offensively) but not sure if we have a good team.

 

[MrTbone]

totally different team structure. we always say we want 5 good shooters/offensive players on the floor. yet our best team wasn't built that way. Martel, Lindsay, Smitty and Garrett hardly scored at all on the sweet 16 team but they had roles and they all defended while Harp and KA carried the offensive load.

we have way more offensive firepower today. maybe more than we need. and not enough defense-first guys.

I don't hear that many people saying we want 5 good shooters. There was a time when I would have been ecstatic with just 3 frankly.

I've been saying for years now, we need good defensive players. Do we need 5? Probably can get by with 4 or even 3, but it helps when those guys are more like Smitty (6-5), Butler/Martel (6-6), and Garrett (6-9?). We've been way too undersized as a starting 5 for the past 4 years.

 

[Gospiders06]

Keep talking about glory years of the past. Its been eight years which is plenty of time to develop players afterwards. What will the excuse be when we finish with 19 wins?

 

[kneepadmckinney]

I dunno, I can remember a lot of posts with people really, really agitated over starting Trey Davis and Deion Taylor, who were undoubtedly defense-first non-shooters. If I'm looking back at the KA/Harp years, it was critical to have Gonzalvez and Butler, plus Martel and -- in his senior year, Smitty -- all as perimeter players that were really good defensively, and also capable enough distance shooters that they had to be guarded out there. We don't need 5 gunners, but it sure seems necessary to have 4 perimeter guys that have to be guarded, even if one or two of them are really only getting 4-6 spot-up jumpers a game and are focusing more on shutting down the other team's scorers.

But if I'm being critical of the team, it's that the good distance shooting wings on our team (Sherod, Wojcik) are not our best perimeter defenders (Goose, Cayo, maybe Burton).

 

[spiderman]

agreed Gonzo and Butler were key in 2009-10, but in the sweet 16 year they were gone.
Martel was a junior scoring 4.6 ppg.
Smitty was a senior scoring 3.9 ppg.
Garrett, our rim protector, played only 12.8 mpg and scored 1.9 ppg.
Geroit (9.5) and Brothers (7.6) were the main scorers after Harp and KA.
that team was not an offensive powerhouse outside of Harp and KA.

 

[GaySpider]

Keep talking about glory years of the past. Its been eight years which is plenty of time to develop players afterwards. What will the excuse be when we finish with 19 wins?

1-Admissions
2-"We competed."
3-Poor Wi-fi in Robins Center
4- Billboard too small
5-#BlameQueally

 

[GaySpider]

1-Admissions
2-"We competed."
3-Poor Wi-fi in Robins Center
4- Billboard too small
5-#BlameQueally

Also, 19 wins AT BEST

 

[Gospiders06]

We need more beer in Robins center.

 

[GaySpider]

They let you get two at a time, hasn't been an issue to me

 

[urmite]

Are you guys forgetting Mooney's 225-175 record before these last 2 seasons?
Obviously, we are going to use this season to bring the 3 season total back to his historical average.

Therefore:
11-2 OOC
16-2 A-10
3-0 Brooklyn
2-1 NCAA
25-40 last 2 seasons

gives a 3 season total of 57-45 .559
That is what these last 2 season have been setting us up for...

 

[fatherspider]

The "close calls" are failures because of coaching. The in-game management problem was evident in year 1. Trust me, I and others were discussing the same coaching issues then.

There has been "sufficient" talent to make the NCAA tournament multiple years. No-one said that there has been too much talent, but a listing of players (Cline, Anthony, Allen, and many more) during Mooney's tenure makes it clear that he has had enough player talent.

The failure is coaching. Is this year's talent enough to overcome Mooney's weaknesses (as Anderson & company did) time will tell. I suspect not, as it would be quite the turnaround to lose 20-games two-years in a row, and then make the NCAA. The odds go up the year after this season.

The close calls are also bs because we should have won so ooo many games we lost