you're remembering senior year Harper. Justin underachieved until senior year. Grant hasn't even played his junior year yet. apples and oranges.
Quality and Depth of players
- Thread starter UR80sfan
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Justin was a stud senior year and so consistent too but agree with spiderman here. And who cares if he played under 25 minutes more times. Overall that year he actually averaged more time per game than Golden.
I stand by the comparison because we are comparing a previous NCAA team (Harper and Company) with a team we think should compete for an NCAA bid. And school year/age has nothing to do it - Grant is the starting and best big man on the team, just like Harper was our best big man on that NCAA team. I don't care what year they are - the NCAA selection committee will not give us extra points because we have a young team. All I am saying is that - especially when it comes to Grant because his name gets thrown out a lot because I believe he has scored more points in his first 2 years than anyone in UR history. But - we have also only won 25 games the past 2 seasons (That NCAA team with Harper won 29 in one year).
Simple point - which I can't imagine any reasonable fan or person of the game would argue, its easier to average 17 points and 7 rebounds on a team that wins 12 games, than it is on a team that wins 29 games.
You are all over the place here. At the beginning, you compared Harper's senior year to our team this year that should compete for the NCAA. If that is indeed the case, why wouldn't you wait at least until the season is over to compare stats? Then, at the end, you are comparing Harper's senior year to our 12 win team, which I agree with sman makes no sense at all. So, either way, your comparisons make no sense.
if we have NCAA team do you still think Golden will average 17 & 7? I do.
I dunno, if you are on a bad team with minimal offensive talent and the other team can basically double team you all the time, I think I can be a reasonable fan and say that it's harder to average 17 and 7 in that scenario.
I can't wrap my head around this logic. you made a blanket statement that everyone would agree that Harper was a better all around player than Golden. I'm not giving you that. who said anything about a Selection Committee?
Harp ended up great. better than Grant's been so far. if you're saying Harper had a better senior year than Golden had as a freshman or sophomore ... ok. but we have no idea how good Golden will be as a junior and senior and you can't definitively compare them until we have that information. Harp won more, but it's a team game. those teams were better.
Harper also sent himself to big man camp the summer before his senior season, and it seemed to make all the difference in his game.
The big difference between the current team and 2010-2011 teams is simple. It's defense.
#NoMoreMooneyTruthing
The big difference between the current team and 2010-2011 teams is simple. It's defense.
#NoMoreMooneyTruthing
I am going to update this post verses posting comments on the subject after a post about a game game.
Overall, I think he have a very high quality team with a lot of depth and potentially the best top 5 in the league.
1.Gilly, is one of the best point guard in the history of the school and potential future A10 player of the year. He should play 36 minutes a game and his shooting effort should not be diluted by other people on the team. This dude knows how to win.
2. Grant is also potential future A10 player of the year and the most important guy on the team. If he gets hurt the season is over. He needs to be playing 30 to 32 minutes a game.
3. Nick , is one of the best shooters in the A10. During the second half of the A10 season of his sophomore year he was one of the highest scores in the league and he seems to be better now. He had a great game against Va tech, currently ranked 48 in Kenpom, and shot 50% from 3 point range in the last game. He needs to play 28 to 34 minutes a game. If we have a good season he might make 3rd team A10.
4. Cayo, is a very solid forward who has not hit his stride yet. He will have some great games for us this season. Last year he shot almost 60% from the field. With Burton backing him up, he can be much more aggressive on defense. I would play him 25 minutes
5. Frances: great athlete, but should be the 5th option for scoring until he proves himself and not the 1st. Shot well from 3, but not well from 2 point range in our 1st game. I would play him 25 to 30 minutes
6. Burton is very impressive for a freshman. He could play forward or guard and should probably back up both positions. I would play him 20 minutes a game and more as the season goes on. I think he is a future A10 1st team player before he graduates.
7./8.Jake/Andre: They are both good players just not as good as the starters. I see them both getting limited minutes behind Gilly and Francis, unless we start doing more full court press, which would reduce all the starter's minutes. 5 to 10 minutes each.
9. Grace played very well as a backup center last year. He is obviously not as good as Grant, but he is one of the top backup centers we have had the past decade. 8 to 10 minutes.
10. Sal: has huge potential, but I am not sure he is there yet. 5 to 10 minutes
Overall, I think he have a very high quality team with a lot of depth and potentially the best top 5 in the league.
1.Gilly, is one of the best point guard in the history of the school and potential future A10 player of the year. He should play 36 minutes a game and his shooting effort should not be diluted by other people on the team. This dude knows how to win.
2. Grant is also potential future A10 player of the year and the most important guy on the team. If he gets hurt the season is over. He needs to be playing 30 to 32 minutes a game.
3. Nick , is one of the best shooters in the A10. During the second half of the A10 season of his sophomore year he was one of the highest scores in the league and he seems to be better now. He had a great game against Va tech, currently ranked 48 in Kenpom, and shot 50% from 3 point range in the last game. He needs to play 28 to 34 minutes a game. If we have a good season he might make 3rd team A10.
4. Cayo, is a very solid forward who has not hit his stride yet. He will have some great games for us this season. Last year he shot almost 60% from the field. With Burton backing him up, he can be much more aggressive on defense. I would play him 25 minutes
5. Frances: great athlete, but should be the 5th option for scoring until he proves himself and not the 1st. Shot well from 3, but not well from 2 point range in our 1st game. I would play him 25 to 30 minutes
6. Burton is very impressive for a freshman. He could play forward or guard and should probably back up both positions. I would play him 20 minutes a game and more as the season goes on. I think he is a future A10 1st team player before he graduates.
7./8.Jake/Andre: They are both good players just not as good as the starters. I see them both getting limited minutes behind Gilly and Francis, unless we start doing more full court press, which would reduce all the starter's minutes. 5 to 10 minutes each.
9. Grace played very well as a backup center last year. He is obviously not as good as Grant, but he is one of the top backup centers we have had the past decade. 8 to 10 minutes.
10. Sal: has huge potential, but I am not sure he is there yet. 5 to 10 minutes
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Gilyard is great but anointing him the best point guard in the history of the school? There are two guys with initials KA who not only knew how to win, they did win. A lot.
Huh? Atkinson won 2 CAA championships right? Anderson won 1 A10 Championship. It’s not some kind of wide disparity. EIther way, Gilyard will rate up there but too early to say best ever, so I suspect we’re in agreement.
Yes, you can definitely include him. I know him personally. I love Gilyard, I just wanted to include others.
What? I'm confused. What championships did Atkinson not win? Anderson didn't win a regular season championship, but he is in our hall of fame. We won 84 games with KA10, and 91 with KA14. They each made a sweet 16. Beckwith was fantastic, too - before my time which is why I didn't mention him at first.
Point being, why are we elevating Gilyard above these historic Spiders? Because he "knows how to win?" He is great, no doubt, but there is a very real possibility he graduates with a losing record and no championships.
I wanted this post to be about the whole team and how minutes should be allocated more to our top players. I also wanted to point out that I thought Nick looked like he has improved over his great sophomore year and that Cayo has proven he is a good player and it is only a matter of time until he steps up his game. However, you raise a valid point about Gilly. It is very subjective on who is the top point guard in the history of U of R.
Gilly still has 2 years to go, but at his current pace he will:
1. Break UR's all time steals record later this year
2. Break the all time assist record during his senior year
3. Rank in the top 10 all time points and possibly top 5
4. Finish with one of the top shooting percentages as a guard (adjusted for 3 point shooting)
5. Hopefully help us have 2 straight successful seasons
Those stats if achieved will make a strong case for him.
I liked your post; that was my only quibble. I see that you have since edited to say "one of" the best PGs in history.
Gilyard will no doubt be on several of our statistical leader lists, and potentially #1 on a couple.
But we're going to need to average 33 wins over the next two years just for him to tie Kevin Anderson in that category.
Obviously multiple categories should be used to evaluate a player, however if you just used wins I wonder which player would rank 1st? It potentially could be a walk on or someone who didn't get a lot of minutes like Tarrant's son.
UR80 said best, not most wins. Best is all opinion, and if he feels that way, it is not a crazy thought. He is talking position, not team. There are plenty of best ever QB debates out there even though Brady has won more than all of them. And, I think it is fair to say there are a lot of basketball players better than Robert Horry. You can go by wins to decide best if you want, but you shouldn't get on others if they just go by their thoughts on the actual player and not the team.
I wouldn't say that. Jacob started from day 1 and has played a ton of minutes already at PG. If someone thinks his play means he is our best PG ever, why is it too early to say that?
it’s just not worth even arguing about this.
I agree. It's all opinion, and you could ask a hundred people, and several could name four or five different point guards we have had as the best. So, why are some of you arguing with UR80 about his opinion?
How's that any different than you arguing with others about theirs?
It was a minor quibble on an overall good post. There are at least 3 point guards who have had more success at Richmond.
UR80sfan changed his post after the fact. Why do you think he did?
UR80sfan changed his post after the fact. Why do you think he did?
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I changed it because you made a good point. I don't have all the answers and will modify what I say if someone convinces me I was wrong.
BTW, I still think he is the best, but realize other people have different views.
To make you happy? He would know better, but I guess probably because it is a lot easier to not get crapped on on here if you say one of and not the.
If you think it's "thread-crapping" to question whether Gilyard is already the best point guard in UR history, I don't know how to help you.
UR80sfan knows I wasn't crapping on him. His was a solid post.
Some folks are just looking to be triggered.
put me in the camp that believes Jacob is the best PG ever here. and that's saying a lot because KA2 (Kevin Anderson) is a legend. it's close.
Anderson won a lot of games so I get that argument. Jacob's a little bit better a shooter, though Kevin shot very well from 3 as a senior. Jacob's a higher assist guy. and a higher steals guy. both made big plays. both are great Spiders.
I just hope Jacob gets to enjoy a little of the success Kevin had as an upperclassman.
Anderson won a lot of games so I get that argument. Jacob's a little bit better a shooter, though Kevin shot very well from 3 as a senior. Jacob's a higher assist guy. and a higher steals guy. both made big plays. both are great Spiders.
I just hope Jacob gets to enjoy a little of the success Kevin had as an upperclassman.
loved that guy. an all-time great Spider. I don't think he's in the discussion for all time PG though. other than his size, he wasn't a PG.
Love him, too, but what spiderman said.
Also, he would be below the other two KAs and Beckwith on my list if he qualified. If I had a list.
There's only one PG with his Spider jersey retired. That's kinda where I'm at.
Ced (speaking of great point guards, he was awesome) was the main point guard for most of Kendall's career. But, Kendall did play a lot more point guard after Ced got hurt, and then played a lot of point guard his senior year as well. But, he was never a true point guard like the others.
