Football to Patriot League. Should basketball and rest of sports be concerned?

[spiderstudent17]

The amount of alumni is important for donations and fan support, but there needs to be more of a revenue and fan support beyond that for UR.

1. Less than 25% alumni give to UR.
https://giving.richmond.edu/types-of-gifts/annual/index.html#:~:text=Your Participation Matters&text=While many alumni generously support,so in any given year.

Also, the majority of alumni donations typically come from older generations. Couple that with generation Z and probably subsequent generations being less into sports than older generations, we are going to face a big time problem in the next 20-30 years. Another challenge for UR is we don’t bring in students from Virginia as much as out of state and how many of those students will end up staying in the Richmond area?

All of this is to say it’s critical to get fan support from other Richmonders. We are lucky that we are in a growing mid-size city with over a million people in the greater Richmond area. We would need 0.6% of the greater Richmond population to be into Spider sports to sell out our arena every game.

This is why I mentioned in another thread it is important for UR to spend more in athletics as an investment to itself: a way to attract more fan interest, revenue, and national branding. It’s wonderful that we tout being one of the most eco-friendly campuses or if our debate team won a competition (I’m genuinely proud of that too) but that’s not what’s going to bring us greater national outreach or more money from alumni, fans, or millions in free publicity from the media. We can have our cake and eat it too with these things.

I’m sure that I am preaching to the choir here. I just wish and will hope that our administration does see the value of that instead of solely wanting to play teams like Bucknell in a mostly empty stadium for football just because we are academic peers. I get that our football situation is more complex and nuanced in our case and moving to the Patriot may have made more sense for a variety of reasons, but I want to make the point that we shouldn’t limit our competition only because we want to be with academic peers. This will hurt our University in the long run. Just to be clear, I don’t see evidence of that being the case right now and hope it remains that way.

 

[PASpider]

The amount of alumni is important for donations and fan support, but there needs to be more of a revenue and fan support beyond that for UR.

1. Less than 25% alumni give to UR.
https://giving.richmond.edu/types-of-gifts/annual/index.html#:~:text=Your Participation Matters&text=While many alumni generously support,so in any given year.

Also, the majority of alumni donations typically come from older generations. Couple that with generation Z and probably subsequent generations being less into sports than older generations, we are going to face a big time problem in the next 20-30 years. Another challenge for UR is we don’t bring in students from Virginia as much as out of state and how many of those students will end up staying in the Richmond area?

All of this is to say it’s critical to get fan support from other Richmonders. We are lucky that we are in a growing mid-size city with over a million people in the greater Richmond area. We would need 0.6% of the greater Richmond population to be into Spider sports to sell out our arena every game.

This is why I mentioned in another thread it is important for UR to spend more in athletics as an investment to itself: a way to attract more fan interest, revenue, and national branding. It’s wonderful that we tout being one of the most eco-friendly campuses or if our debate team won a competition (I’m genuinely proud of that too) but that’s not what’s going to bring us greater national outreach or more money from alumni, fans, or millions in free publicity from the media. We can have our cake and eat it too with these things.

I’m sure that I am preaching to the choir here. I just wish and will hope that our administration does see the value of that instead of solely wanting to play teams like Bucknell in a mostly empty stadium for football just because we are academic peers. I get that our football situation is more complex and nuanced in our case and moving to the Patriot may have made more sense for a variety of reasons, but I want to make the point that we shouldn’t limit our competition only because we want to be with academic peers. This will hurt our University in the long run. Just to be clear, I don’t see evidence of that being the case right now and hope it remains that way.

So the stadium would be empty for Bucknell but full for Monmouth l, NC A&T, and Campbell? Like I said before, I guarantee Nova will not be in the league in five years as they see who’s left. The departure of UMass and Delaware was the beginning of the end for this league.

 

[spiderstudent17]

So the stadium would be empty for Bucknell but full for Monmouth l, NC A&T, and Campbell? Like I said before, I guarantee Nova will not be in the league in five years as they see who’s left. The departure of UMass and Delaware was the beginning of the end for this league.

My point bringing that up wasn’t to compare the emptiness of the stadium against Bucknell as opposed to Monmouth. Rather my point was the main reason for UR to align its athletics with a conference should NOT be primarily for academic alignment with peer institutions. That will do little to nothing in terms of increasing our brand, national recognition, or alumni/fan involvement at the university. Do you think Vanderbilt is bothered with the fact they are in the SEC with schools like Alabama and Arkansas? Do you think that this impacts Vanderbilt’s academic reputation? Of course not. I can guarantee that Vanderbilt would rather be in a conference with Alabama, Kentucky, and Auburn than one with Wake Forest, Syracuse, and Northwestern.

I have been on record here saying this move to the Patriot League for football may have been a good move for other reasons with the added bonus that we are with academic peer institutions. Time will tell and we have to see what Villanova and W&M do. We are in a good spot with the A10 because it is the best of both worlds for us in terms of competitiveness and being with other similar academic institutions. With the Big East being the only one that’s better.

 

[KE Spider]

The departure of UMass and Delaware was the beginning of the end for this league.

Can you explain this view a little more?

UMass left CAA for FBS in 2011, 13 years ago. Last league championship was shared with the Spiders 17 years ago in 2007.

UD last won the league championship in the Covid shortened 2020 season with a 4-0 record. Most recent championship before that was 2010 when they shared it with the Tribe. Generally a solid program year and year out though.

Don't believe the survival of the CAA ever depended on either of these schools, particularly UMass.

 

[PASpider]

Can you explain this view a little more?

UMass left CAA for FBS in 2011, 13 years ago. Last league championship was shared with the Spiders 17 years ago in 2007.

UD last won the league championship in the Covid shortened 2020 season with a 4-0 record. Most recent championship before that was 2010 when they shared it with the Tribe. Generally a solid program year and year out though.

Don't believe the survival of the CAA ever depended on either of these schools, particularly UMass.

Yes, by this I mean the CAA started looking for red headed stepchildren to join the CAA to replace teams that were leaving and diluted the overall quality of the league from both a competitive and academic standpoint. I should have included JMU as well. It hasn’t been an overnight collapse but we are seeing the gradual weakening of the CAA and I’ll be shocked if Villanova doesn’t join the Patriot League in the next five years.

 

[AnnapSpider]

More students = more fans, more tickets sold, more merch sold, more money being donated to the basketball program and NIL, etc. In the end, we would become more competitive with schools that have bigger budgets. So yes, having a bigger enrollment would give us a better chance of reaching the Sweet 16. How many schools with 3,000 students reach the Sweet 16 on a regular basis?

Gonzaga only has 5000 students. Your numbers just don’t hold up.
What’s Davidson’s enrollment- 2,000. St. Joe is only 4,600.
School attendance doesn’t matter.

 

[spiderman]

School attendance doesn’t matter.

of course school size and conference affiliation matter. I don't know how Gonzaga became what they are, but they're the only small power from outside the P6. and while small, they're still almost twice our size.

 

[VT4700]

of course school size and conference affiliation matter. I don't know how Gonzaga became what they are, but they're the only small power from outside the P6. and while small, they're still almost twice our size.

Perfect storm for Gonzaga. First of all, you need a great coach, and Few is as good as anyone. Next, they are in a conference you can dominate. Sure, they have to be really good to dominate, but under Few, they are 347-46 in the WCC and 45-5 in the WCC tourney. The WCC is a 10 team conference and most of the teams are average or below average, making it much easier to dominate. That domination gets attention. Recruits want to win and they have done a ton of winning. Also, they are in the right location. The only major conference out west was the Pac. The last team out west to win a title was Arizona in 1997. So, if you want to play ball out west, why not Gonzaga?

But, you still need to win, beat power teams, and make noise in the dance and they have consistently done all of that, so Few and Gonzaga deserve a ton of credit here. It is pretty remarkable what they have done.

 

[ManiBenton]

So you’re fine with lower quality athletes, lower level competition, lower level public interest, and an eventual disintegration of Spider football?

I’d take our hoops program to the patriot in a heartbeat

 

[GKiller]

of course school size and conference affiliation matter. I don't know how Gonzaga became what they are, but they're the only small power from outside the P6. and while small, they're still almost twice our size.

school size absolutely matters

 

[urfan1]

I’d take our hoops program to the patriot in a heartbeat

NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[spiderstudent17]

In what way are people saying school size matters? I guess it matters that there could be more alumni to go to the games or donations, but it’s certainly not essential to top level basketball success and we see plenty of evidence of that.

Like mentioned before: Xavier, Providence, Butler, Creighton, Gonzaga all have about 5K students or less. Heck, even Davidson has had pretty solid success under Bob Mckillop in the A10 when they’re even smaller than us. Conference affiliation, coaching, and basketball reputation matters a ton more.

If it was all school size, why isn’t a school like Florida international University with 45K undergrads (C-USA) any good? Or UC-Irvine out in the Big West with ~30K? Or even in the A10, why aren’t Fordham, URI, UMass at the top of the conference every year? instead schools like us, Davidson, and the Bonnie’s have won regular seasons or A10 tournaments in this decade. Conversely, how has Wake Forest in a power conference managed to win 10 national championships across all sports or gone to the final four with basketball when they only have 5K undergrad? It’s because conference affiliation matters a ton.

Football may be the only sport I can see the argument that school size matters, but playing top level football is not in the cards for us. Basketball is a great equalizer for schools across the country because it doesn’t take the same resources as football to be competitive. The roster sizes are also 10x smaller. We’ve beaten schools like Iowa and Wisconsin recently in basketball. We played Florida tough last year too. We wouldn’t stand a chance in football. This is while we are in the A10 too. Imagine with the Big East brand? It’s considered an upset when we beat those teams. When Creighton, Providence, or Xavier play them, they’re often considered the favorites to win the game! So conference affiliation is way more important for basketball success than school size in my opinion

 

[spiderman]

ok, Davidson and SBU have had some success but are no where near powers. the other schools you list are relatively small but all bigger than us.

conference affilation is the biggest factor but school size is a huge factor in getting into those conferences. if we had 8,000 students we'd already be in a major conference.

if school size wasn't a factor you'd see a lot more 2,000-3,000 student schools having consistant basketball tournament success.

 

[spiderstudent17]

ok, Davidson and SBU have had some success but are no where near powers. the other schools you list are relatively small but all bigger than us.

conference affilation is the biggest factor but school size is a huge factor in getting into those conferences. if we had 8,000 students we'd already be in a major conference.

if school size wasn't a factor you'd see a lot more 2,000-3,000 student schools having consistant basketball tournament success.

I think we may have to agree to disagree here. I don’t see the difference between 3K and 4-5K for a school size and we see plenty of the latter in the Big East conference. And yes, Davidson is not a power by any means, but look at their success going up to the A10, a top 8 or 9 conference in the country, since leaving the SoCon. They had no problem adjusting to the A10 level with only 2K undergrads. I would bet you if Davidson joined the Big East, they will adjust there as well, albeit maybe not as quickly. Also, I bring up the Bonnie’s (yes they are not a power by any means either) to mention that they have had pretty solid success being a school with less than 2K undergrads AND being in the middle of nowhere New York with not nearly the same resources as other A10 programs. Hence Rothstein’s “Mark Schmidt. More with less” tweet. Why have they been a good program in the A10? Because they have a great coach and the A10 affiliation along with a good basketball reputation of success to help land recruits. It only takes having 2-3 great players a year to change the success of a basketball program. That’s obviously much different than in football.

 

[spiderman]

I would bet you if Davidson joined the Big East, they will adjust there as well, albeit maybe not as quickly.

maybe with McKillop Sr. but they'll never be asked to join the big east. because they're too small.

I think you can overcome size today if you raise enough NIL money, though. NIL fundraising should be priority #1 at every school.

 

[spiderstudent17]

maybe with McKillop Sr. but they'll never be asked to join the big east. because they're too small.

I think you can overcome size today if you raise enough NIL money, though. NIL fundraising should be priority #1 at every school.

May I ask why you think small school size is such a deal breaker for basketball? And secondly, what the difference is between 2-3K and 4-5K since we see plenty of the latter competing at a high level? Us and Davidson have the added benefit of being in growing metropolitan cities (Charlotte even more so). You don’t think if us or Davidson were routinely top 25 teams that the casual Richmond or Charlotte citizen who likes sports, but aren’t alumni of the school, wouldn’t tune in to watch on TV or even go to the games?

I agree with you that Mckillop Sr. played a big part of the success. Same with Few and Gonzaga. Conference affiliation isn’t the only reason why a school would be good. If that was the case, DePaul would be a lot better than they are. Conference affiliation, coaching, and a reputation of strong basketball is important. By strong, I don’t mean winning national championships. By strong I mean like what we, Bonnie’s, and Davidson have been able to achieve. Enough where we can point to recruits and say “look, we are able to win conference championships here and make deep runs in the NCAA tournament. Come to our school and win these things and make us an even better program”. We can even point out how Gilly was able to get NBA looks while playing at Richmond. We aren’t going to convince the top 25, 5 star recruits to come here. But we can certainly be an attractive option high 3 star/4 star recruits in the top 150.

I also agree with you regarding NIL. NIL has actually helped us out a lot in my opinion and we see that in the quality of recruits we are getting from the transfer portal. Hence, why I think we can do quite well in the A10 and be competitive in the Big East.

 

[GKiller]

U can have bball success as a small school but it’s still an obstacle to overcome

 

[VT4700]

In what way are people saying school size matters? I guess it matters that there could be more alumni to go to the games or donations, but it’s certainly not essential to top level basketball success and we see plenty of evidence of that.
A
Like mentioned before: Xavier, Providence, Butler, Creighton, Gonzaga all have about 5K students or less. Heck, even Davidson has had pretty solid success under Bob Mckillop in the A10 when they’re even smaller than us. Conference affiliation, coaching, and basketball reputation matters a ton more.

If it was all school size, why isn’t a school like Florida international University with 45K undergrads (C-USA) any good? Or UC-Irvine out in the Big West with ~30K? Or even in the A10, why aren’t Fordham, URI, UMass at the top of the conference every year? instead schools like us, Davidson, and the Bonnie’s have won regular seasons or A10 tournaments in this decade. Conversely, how has Wake Forest in a power conference managed to win 10 national championships across all sports or gone to the final four with basketball when they only have 5K undergrad? It’s because conference affiliation matters a ton.

Football may be the only sport I can see the argument that school size matters, but playing top level football is not in the cards for us. Basketball is a great equalizer for schools across the country because it doesn’t take the same resources as football to be competitive. The roster sizes are also 10x smaller. We’ve beaten schools like Iowa and Wisconsin recently in basketball. We played Florida tough last year too. We wouldn’t stand a chance in football. This is while we are in the A10 too. Imagine with the Big East brand? It’s considered an upset when we beat those teams. When Creighton, Providence, or Xavier play them, they’re often considered the favorites to win the game! So conference affiliation is way more important for basketball success than school size in my opinion

Agree. Basketball has 13 man rosters, and you usually play 8 or 9 guys. Find the right mix of those guys and you have a chance, regardless of school size. We have already proven you can win a lot of dance games and reach sweet 16s with a school our size, so I am not sure why this is even a discussion. And, in addition to conference affiliation, NIL is very important and I would much rather have a small school with solid NIL support like we have than the other way around.

 

[spiderman]

By strong I mean like what we, Bonnie’s, and Davidson have been able to achieve.

if that's what you mean by strong then yes, clearly small schools with good coaches, a good conference, and NIL money can accomplish that.

as for "what the difference is between 2-3K and 4-5K" ... literally 60% to 100% of the school size is the difference!

you list a handful of 5,000 student schools and say size doesn't matter, while I can name 50 bigger schools with strong programs. yes, because of conference affilliation. but they're in those conferences because they're bigger.

 

[spiderstudent17]

Agree. Basketball has 13 man rosters, and you usually play 8 or 9 guys. Find the right mix of those guys and you have a chance, regardless of school size. We have already proven you can win a lot of dance games and reach sweet 16s with a school our size, so I am not sure why this is even a discussion. And, in addition to conference affiliation, NIL is very important and I would much rather have a small school with solid NIL support like we have than the other way around.

Especially in our case where basketball is the main NIL priority and we don’t have to worry about football overshadowing it.

 

[spiderstudent17]

if that's what you mean by strong then yes, clearly small schools with good coaches, a good conference, and NIL money can accomplish that.

as for "what the difference is between 2-3K and 4-5K" ... literally 60% to 100% of the school size is the difference!

you list a handful of 5,000 student schools and say size doesn't matter, while I can name 50 bigger schools with strong programs. yes, because of conference affilliation. but they're in those conferences because they're bigger.

The percentage is greater because we’re dealing with smaller numbers. Wouldn’t be much of a % difference between 18K and 20K in school size. Also, in terms of living alumni we may have what 50K to Creighton’s 60K? Maybe I’m failing to see what you’re saying, I just don’t think that is that much a difference in the big scheme of things. If we had VCU’s level of success we would be in the Big East right now. The Big East and Fox wants to have as many eye balls as possible watching our games. I also maintain that they would like to have a school that matches the conference’s overall institutional profile, but would be willing to bend that if made them a lot more money. The vast majority of viewership would come from non-alumni both in the city and across the country. I tune in and watch Creighton and Xavier in games and I have no affiliation to those schools whatsoever. We were considered for the Big East back in 2013. I don’t see why we don’t have a chance in the future if we can elevate our basketball further.

I am not disputing that there are stronger programs than we are from schools that also have way more of an enrollment. Alabama or Ohio State has a lot more resources, money, viewership, etc than we do. Those schools are affiliated with one another though because of football. We will never be in the Big 10, ACC, or SEC. I’m not talking about being in those conferences. I just believe that basketball and being in the Big East, is a different thing all together and there is ample evidence to show smaller schools like ourselves can have great basketball success despite having smaller size and conference affiliation plays a really big role in that. In my opinion, there’s also evidence to suggest that the Big East conference has taken plenty of schools that are small in size. I simply don’t see that much of a difference with our size and the above mentioned Big East schools. I guess you do. I respect your opinion, but respectfully disagree.

 

[urfan1]

In what way are people saying school size matters? I guess it matters that there could be more alumni to go to the games or donations, but it’s certainly not essential to top level basketball success and we see plenty of evidence of that.

Like mentioned before: Xavier, Providence, Butler, Creighton, Gonzaga all have about 5K students or less. Heck, even Davidson has had pretty solid success under Bob Mckillop in the A10 when they’re even smaller than us. Conference affiliation, coaching, and basketball reputation matters a ton more.

If it was all school size, why isn’t a school like Florida international University with 45K undergrads (C-USA) any good? Or UC-Irvine out in the Big West with ~30K? Or even in the A10, why aren’t Fordham, URI, UMass at the top of the conference every year? instead schools like us, Davidson, and the Bonnie’s have won regular seasons or A10 tournaments in this decade. Conversely, how has Wake Forest in a power conference managed to win 10 national championships across all sports or gone to the final four with basketball when they only have 5K undergrad? It’s because conference affiliation matters a ton.

Football may be the only sport I can see the argument that school size matters, but playing top level football is not in the cards for us. Basketball is a great equalizer for schools across the country because it doesn’t take the same resources as football to be competitive. The roster sizes are also 10x smaller. We’ve beaten schools like Iowa and Wisconsin recently in basketball. We played Florida tough last year too. We wouldn’t stand a chance in football. This is while we are in the A10 too. Imagine with the Big East brand? It’s considered an upset when we beat those teams. When Creighton, Providence, or Xavier play them, they’re often considered the favorites to win the game! So conference affiliation is way more important for basketball success than school size in my opinion

I do think you are combining issues. The size matters to the conference because they want $ impact. More interest in the school more TV viewers more dollars. If we were the only school in this area you might say we controlled the market (thus size of market would control) but of course that is not the situation.

 

[spiderstudent17]

I do think you are combining issues. The size matters to the conference because they want $ impact. More interest in the school more TV viewers more dollars. If we were the only school in this area you might say we controlled the market (thus size of market would control) but of course that is not the situation.

You and spiderman certainly bring up very good points and I’m sure things the Big East analyzes a lot more closely than us here. I am not an expert in this area, if that wasn’t obvious lol, but I imagine that viewership and control of the market can change a lot and factors in a lot of things. Xavier shares a market with U. Cincinnati and does well in the Big East and viewership. Providence competes with a larger U. Rhode Island but I bet they have more viewership for basketball than URI does now. I get that having more alumni/school size can increase viewership because people like to watch the school they are affiliated with. I just don’t think that is as big of a factor for the Big East in basketball as others may think. I think what can matter more is the population of where we are located. We add the Virginia geographic footprint and a market in Richmond that continues to grow.

There are so many casual sports fans in Richmond that will be more interested in watching and going to our games simply because we would be in a better conference in the big east. It would be even more if we can take advantage of the big east brand and be in the top 25 more frequently. Look at the crowd we had and the nationally televised game when we played Dayton this year. Now imagine what it would be if we played UConn, Marquette, Xavier, Creighton, and Providence at the Robins Center each year. Viewership may overlap with those who also watch VCU. We aren’t directly competing with VCU in this sense because people can watch both. 0.6% of the greater Richmond population would need to come to our games for us to sell out. I am confident we could do that a lot more being in the big east, in addition to the greater Richmond audience we would reach on nationally broadcasted games

 

[urfan1]

I would jump at the chance to move to the Big East. I hope you are right.

 

[AnnapSpider]

I didn’t know which one of you to reply to.
You all complain about our program, but now
say our school size matters.
So, which one of you is going to start building new dormitories
and classroom buildings?
And, please be sure that your great great grandfather didn’t
own slaves.
A lot of times some of you don’t consider your statements

 

[Spiders4ever]

What are we doing here?????? We’d be competing with DePaul for last every season

DePaul is on the way up.

New coach, right?

 

[ManiBenton]

DePaul is on the way up.

New coach, right?

Yeah we’ll see if Holtmann works for them

 

[PASpider]

In what way are people saying school size matters? I guess it matters that there could be more alumni to go to the games or donations, but it’s certainly not essential to top level basketball success and we see plenty of evidence of that.

Like mentioned before: Xavier, Providence, Butler, Creighton, Gonzaga all have about 5K students or less. Heck, even Davidson has had pretty solid success under Bob Mckillop in the A10 when they’re even smaller than us. Conference affiliation, coaching, and basketball reputation matters a ton more.

If it was all school size, why isn’t a school like Florida international University with 45K undergrads (C-USA) any good? Or UC-Irvine out in the Big West with ~30K? Or even in the A10, why aren’t Fordham, URI, UMass at the top of the conference every year? instead schools like us, Davidson, and the Bonnie’s have won regular seasons or A10 tournaments in this decade. Conversely, how has Wake Forest in a power conference managed to win 10 national championships across all sports or gone to the final four with basketball when they only have 5K undergrad? It’s because conference affiliation matters a ton.

Football may be the only sport I can see the argument that school size matters, but playing top level football is not in the cards for us. Basketball is a great equalizer for schools across the country because it doesn’t take the same resources as football to be competitive. The roster sizes are also 10x smaller. We’ve beaten schools like Iowa and Wisconsin recently in basketball. We played Florida tough last year too. We wouldn’t stand a chance in football. This is while we are in the A10 too. Imagine with the Big East brand? It’s considered an upset when we beat those teams. When Creighton, Providence, or Xavier play them, they’re often considered the favorites to win the game! So conference affiliation is way more important for basketball success than school size in my opinion

The question was phrased something to the effect of “would larger school size give us a better chance at making the Sweet Sixteen?” I responded yes. It’s obviously not the sole factor, and doesn’t guarantee anything, but would it help? Of course. You cited a few schools that have had some success as smaller programs. Of which, Providence and Wake Forest don’t often make the Sweet Sixteen. Sports favors the big schools with the big athletic budgets. I don’t think that’s saying anything out of line.

Prior to that, I stated that our size would not be attractive to a major conference due to the lack of viewers, as well as ticket sales and merch sales. Again, I don’t think that’s crazy to say either. The ACC may move on from Duke one day because they don’t draw enough football ratings as good as their basketball program is. It’s just reality.

 

[PASpider]

I didn’t know which one of you to reply to.
You all complain about our program, but now
say our school size matters.
So, which one of you is going to start building new dormitories
and classroom buildings?
And, please be sure that your great great grandfather didn’t
own slaves.
A lot of times some of you don’t consider your statements

Another nonsensical response. I don’t think anyone is advocating the doubling of our student population in order to win more basketball games. The question you asked was whether or not being a larger school would give us a better chance of getting to the Sweet Sixteen. The answer is yes, but of course it would come with a big cost. We could throw away our standards tomorrow and let in everyone like JMU did in order to increase our student population and improve our sports programs, but I certainly don’t advocate for that. I would much rather have Richmond be looked at as an elite school with an average basketball program than an average school with an elite basketball program like Gonzaga.

 

[AnnapSpider]

Another nonsensical response. I don’t think anyone is advocating the doubling of our student population in order to win more basketball games. The question you asked was whether or not being a larger school would give us a better chance of getting to the Sweet Sixteen. The answer is yes, but of course it would come with a big cost. We could throw away our standards tomorrow and let in everyone like JMU did in order to increase our student population and improve our sports programs, but I certainly don’t advocate for that. I would much rather have Richmond be looked at as an elite school with an average basketball program than an average school with an elite basketball program like Gonzaga.

I don’t care what you think. Read all the posts that say size matters.
I’m only pointing out that you can’t say that and then in the next post we should be in the Big East.
As far as your first comment, no one on this site is as nonsensical as you.

 

[PASpider]

I don’t care what you think. Read all the posts that say size matters.
I’m only pointing out that you can’t say that and then in the next post we should be in the Big East.
As far as your first comment, no one on this site is as nonsensical as you.

People are saying they want to be in the Big East but don’t think it’s going to happen for various reasons. Nobody was saying we should drastically change our campus. No idea what your slavery comment has to do with any of this.

 

[spiderstudent17]

Sports favors the big schools with the big athletic budgets. I don’t think that’s saying anything out of line.

When you word it like this, I certainly agree. I am not disputing that bigger schools with bigger athletic budgets have an easier ability to do well in sports. That's apparent. What I am contesting is the notion that our 3K size is a limiting reason why the Big East would not take us. I highlighted numerous schools in the Big East that I would argue have comparable school sizes to ours and also mentioned we were in consideration for the Big East in 2013.

The question was phrased something to the effect of “would larger school size give us a better chance at making the Sweet Sixteen?” I responded yes. It’s obviously not the sole factor, and doesn’t guarantee anything, but would it help? Of course.

Additionally, I do agree that school size plays a factor in helping a school with athletic success, but its a smaller factor in basketball than football. Like I mentioned in a prior post, basketball is an equalizer for a variety of reasons including fewer resources needed to be successful than football, smaller rosters, fewer players on a court so having 1-2 impact players can make a more noticeable difference. So when asking "would larger school size give us a better chance at making the Sweet Sixteen" my answer would be "ya, probably" because indirectly that would mean they have more of an athletic budget, resources, perhaps alumni donations to support the department and get better recruits and coaching. But I would say that is like 5th or 6th on the list of importance. Rather conference affiliation, coaching, a history of at minimum good basketball reputation, and culture of basketball at the school are more important factors. If school size was so important, we would see teams like UC-Irvine, Northeastern, or Florida International University be routinely much better than they are.

Prior to that, I stated that our size would not be attractive to a major conference due to the lack of viewers, as well as ticket sales and merch sales. Again, I don’t think that’s crazy to say either.

This is another one of the "I agree statements" in the sense it certainly wouldn't be a detractor to have more size as a school body as that is more likely to attract viewer since people like to watch schools they attended. Similar to the school size, I just don't think it is as important for the Big East (again, my entire argument stems for the Big East - not Big 10, ACC, Big 12, or SEC). We see several schools in the Big East with smaller size sharing markets with other bigger size schools (Xavier with U. Cincinnati or Providence and URI as examples). I would argue that the population of the city/geographic area is more important than the population of the student body. If I am the Big East, I would see that UR is in a growing city mid-size city of 1 million+ in the greater Richmond area and the #56 TV media market in the country. Yes, a school like VCU may have some inherent advantage in garnering views given more alumni in the area, but I would feel confident that UR would attract a lot of casual sports fans to tune into the games because UR would be playing in a higher caliber conference among the best teams in the country. It's similar to why more people watch Villanova play in Philadelphia than Drexel who is also in Philadelphia with 25K enrollment. Also there will be more national interest in our games from around the country to watch for the same reason. How many of us have tuned in to watch Creighton, Butler, or Marquette play because we are fans of college basketball? I think of it as when a celebrity endorses a product and the sales of the product then spike because the celebrity helped enhance the recognition and brand awareness of the product. That's what being in the Big East would do for Richmond basketball even if we start "2 steps behind" because of our smaller size.

Right now the biggest thing we can do to improve our chances for the Big East is to have a higher level of sustained basketball success. That is the biggest thing we're missing, which is also the biggest piece of the puzzle that the Big East looks for. Fortunately that is something we have some modicum of control over as we can invest in NIL, facilities, coaching salaries, etc. to build a top A10 basketball program. The factors we can't control like school size or being in a market with VCU aren't deal breakers for us in my opinion. I might be completely off base with everything I said, but at least in my mind the rational makes sense lol.

 

[AnnapSpider]

People are saying they want to be in the Big East but don’t think it’s going to happen for various reasons. Nobody was saying we should drastically change our campus. No idea what your slavery comment has to do with any of this.

I don’t intend to stay on this thread, but I wanted to explain my “slavery”comment.
I facetiously suggested that those that wanted a larger school for athletics should build dormitories and classroom buildings.
But they couldn’t name them after their family because Hallock thinks
re-writing history is something that will resolve the schism in our nation.

 

[KE Spider]

Conversation is interesting, but not tethered to realty.

Spiders are a looong way from Big East consideration. Conference championships and NCAA appearances are mandatory on a consistent basis. Last in offensive rebounding isn't going to unlock the door to the Big East. Haven't consistently appeared in NCAA's since Tarrant.

OK to dream big, want the absolute best for our school, but realistically we have a ton of work to do before considering this a remote possibility.

 

[MrTbone]

I don’t intend to stay on this thread, but I wanted to explain my “slavery”comment.
I facetiously suggested that those that wanted a larger school for athletics should build dormitories and classroom buildings.
But they couldn’t name them after their family because Hallock thinks
re-writing history is something that will resolve the schism in our nation.

Not sure why you’re blaming this on Hallock. That movement started before his arrival and was an outgrowth of student concern. Your analogy is weird regardless.

Kevin is a pretty thoughtful guy based on my interactions with him.

 

[97spiderfan]

What are we doing here?????? We’d be competing with DePaul for last every season

We won the A-10 last year.

 

[ManiBenton]

We won the A-10 last year.

We lost all our p5 non con games last year…

 

[AnnapSpider]

Not sure why you’re blaming this on Hallock. That movement started before his arrival and was an outgrowth of student concern. Your analogy is weird regardless.

Kevin is a pretty thoughtful guy based on my interactions with him.

Who took the name off of the law school?

 

[Wood Hall]

Who took the name off of the law school?

The Board of Trustees.

 

[AnnapSpider]

The Board of Trustees.

And who convinced them to do it? Most of them have family legacies
that make them pretty hypocritical.