Established goals for hoops vs. football program

[97spiderfan]

Despite all of the hindrances that our football program faces playing FCS, our program has an expectation of being a perennial player in FCS football.

Is there a similar expectation for our hoops program currently?

 

[fan2011]

Despite all of the hindrances that our football program faces playing FCS, our program has an expectation of being a perennial player in FCS football.

Is there a similar expectation for our hoops program currently?

I know this is going to be a terribly unpopular opinion, but I believe our basketball team is relatively stronger than our football team in the grand scheme of things. Our football team is generally relegated to playing against teams outside the top 128 schools. If our basketball team was forced to do the same (which may eventually happen in the FBS schools finally decide to leave the NCAA) we would be competing for the national championship every year in basketball as well.

Take a look at the Sagarin ratings for football (which include FBS and FCS teams) and basketball. Over the past 5 years we been the 133rd best football team on average, but the 90th best basketball team on average. Add in the fact that there are a lot more basketball teams than football teams and the difference becomes larger (basketball team is better than 74% of teams on average, football team is better than 47% of teams on average).

I know it is not an apples to apples comparison, the differences between the football system and basketball system make them difficult to compare, but thinking its just as difficult to be similarly competitive in D1 basketball as we are in FCS football is pretty absurd. The talent levels, coaching and team strength required are drastically different. For example, our basketball team routinely beats top 25 teams, even in our down years. I don't think there is anyone who would argue our football team has ever been good enough to beat a top 25 FBS team, yet people generally consider our football team to be stronger than our basketball team.

I do not mean to belittle the success of our football program, it is a really good program with some really good players and coaches. However, if we had similar talent, coaching, etc. on our basketball team I do not think we would perform better than we have under Mooney.

 

[Ulla1]

I know this is going to be a terribly unpopular opinion, but our basketball team is actually relatively stronger than our football team in the grand scheme of things. Our football team is generally relegated to playing against teams outside the top 128 schools. If our basketball team was forced to do the same (which may eventually happen in the FBS schools finally decide to leave the NCAA) we would be competing for the national championship every year in basketball as well.

Take a look at the Sagarin ratings for football (which include FBS and FCS teams) and basketball. Over the past 5 years we been the 133rd best football team on average, but the 90th best basketball team on average. Add in the fact that there are a lot more basketball teams than football teams and the difference becomes larger.

I know it is not an apples to apples comparison, the differences between the football system and basketball system make them difficult to compare, but thinking that us being very competitive at the FCS level in football means we should also be similarly competitive in D1 basketball is pretty absurd. The talent levels, coaching and team strength required to compete similarly in D1 basketball as we do in FCS football are drastically different. For example, our basketball team routinely beats top 25 teams, even in our down years. I don't think there is anyone who would argue our football team has ever been good enough a top 25 FBS team.

I do not mean to belittle the success of our football program, it is a really good program with some really good players and coaches. However, if we had similar talent, coaching, etc. on our basketball team I do not think we would perform better than we have under Mooney.

Fan2011, a unique take on the comparison of football and basketball, nevertheless, well reasoned. Thanks for this insight. OSC

 

[AnnapSpider]

IMHO for a small university we are very good in sports. There are a lot of FBS programs that
we outclass, year in and year out in a lot of different team sports. We'll never be a Michigan,
but who is?

 

[iSpider]

Despite all of the hindrances that our football program faces playing FCS, our program has an expectation of being a perennial player in FCS football.
Is there a similar expectation for our hoops program currently?

Our expectations in both should be to be national championships. At least that is what we have been fed to believe by the university's Master Plan. We have already done so in football. Never even close in basketball (Sweet 16 twice, I know...so what? BFD, still a galaxy away from a national championship....or even a final four). VMI made the Elite Eight. VCU and Mason made the final four. With all our resources, we have never sniffed such success.

From what I have observed of basketball in the past 20 years, the best we can do in the division within which we compete is to be relevant (make the post-season playoffs and see how far we can go).
Yet, in football, we have realistic expectations of national championships. Comparing the teams against which we compete, I point you to the recent revelation of this year's basketball schedule, pretty much all bottom feeders and certainly not any more prominent than those teams we face in football given the success of the schools in overall athletics.

We recently beat UVa and have beaten Duke three straight times in football.
What would be the result for our basketball teams against them?

IMO, I think that we lack the commitment from the university to be competitive at the level of competing for a national championship in basketball. Not so in football.

So aren't you really comparing apples to oranges when you suggest that expectations be the same?

 

[MolivaManiac]

Why do we need to use the football win as a reason to express basketball frustration, whether justified or not? We have all winter to express basketball frustration, if we need to.

I just think the comparison is unfair. Rocco is one of the highest paid coaches in FCS football at about $450k per year. John Calipari, at roughly $8m per year, is the highest paid basketball coach. What conclusions can be drawn from this?

 

[spider fan]

Dynamic is that the football system for college football morphed into FBS and FCS because fewer schools play Division 1 football than basketball. Thus it was easier for the "larger" schools to literally "boot out" the smaller schools from football while to date they have not had the leverage to do the same in basketball. The UVA AD at the time, Gene Corrigan, was one of the primary players in kicking Spiders along with the Tribe and other schools out of the top rung of college football. Therefore our football win over Virginia is that much sweeter because their fans have chafed under the loss to an unrealistic extent because the mindset is we couldn't possibly be any good. Uncertain about some of your logic 2011 because the playing field for the two sports is so different............
Edit - you can only compete where you are "allowed" to compete and the difference in college football between top 25 teams and the rest of the field is vastly different from the difference in college basketball top 25 and the rest of the field.

 

[PawleysSpider]

fan2011 - Shouldn't the difference in scholarship limits between FCS & FBS be factored into your rankings analysis?

 

[spiderman]

I think some of you would prefer winning D2 basketball championships as opposed to competing in the same pool as the best in the country like we do.

 

[ur2K]

Looking at football and basketball, I'd like one coach who can't seem to have a stable roster of 13 players to ask the other one how he gets 90+ on the roster and take some notes.

 

[WebSpinner]

yep, this is kind of like comparing the dress worn by poppy montgomery to the slacks worn by rosie o'donnell

 

[97spiderfan]

Looking at football and basketball, I'd like one coach who can't seem to have a stable roster of 13 players to ask the other one how he gets 90+ on the roster and take some notes.

And this is exactly what I am referring to. We seem to make a lot of excuses as to why our hoops program can't fully recruit its roster, can't recruit at the level that we need them to consistently, and how academics hinders our recruiting.

But yet, we don't make those same excuses for football and football is finding kids (and by nature of roster size a lot more of them) who can play at a very high level and still meet our stringent academic requirements. Our football program consistently beats its peer institutions in recruiting battles.

The answer to me is pretty simple, Rocco is an inherently better coach (recruiting, maintaining a highly qualified and diverse staff, adopting strategy to current crop of player personnel) than is Mooney.

The proof is in the pudding. Football went to the Final Four last year is currently ranked number 2 in the country.

And no Fan 11, comparing Sagarin ranking is not apples to apples at all. We are FCS and that means we are always going to be behind pretty much every FBS program. I don't see how salary comparisons matter either. Mooney is paid over 2 times what Rocco is making and his salary compares very well with our peer institutions in the A-10.

 

[Spiderbymarriage]

I just think the comparison is unfair. Rocco is one of the highest paid coaches in FCS football at about $450k per year. John Calipari, at roughly $8m per year, is the highest paid basketball coach. What conclusions can be drawn from this?

Yikes. My conclusion: we are going to lose Rocco at some point. One of the RTD writers this week declared him to be the best college football coach in the state.

If 2016 plays out the way we hope it will, there will be schools coming for him. (And according to UVA press, Mendenhall makes $3.25 million per year, and Fuentes makes $3.2 million.)

 

[spiderman]

"We are FCS and that means we are always going to be behind pretty much every FBS program". with that reasoning, "we are A10 and that means we are always going to be behind pretty much every P5 program". what's the difference?

 

[spider fan]

The difference is we have the same number of scholarships as P5 in basketball but we do not have the same number of scholarships in FCS football as the FBS teams have. So Pawley totally agree with you.

 

[spiderman]

so in your opinion it's the non scholarship athletes on the football roster that make up the difference between FCS and FBS?

 

[spider fan]

Not necessarily non scholarship because I think but don't know all the details that some scholarships are partial which enables us to give an incentive for an expanded roster. Am certain some posters are more knowledgeable on those particular details.

 

[97spiderfan]

"We are FCS and that means we are always going to be behind pretty much every FBS program". with that reasoning, "we are A10 and that means we are always going to be behind pretty much every P5 program". what's the difference?

Really, you are trying to compare the FCS/ FBS relationship to the A-10/ P5 conferences. Come on. They operate on completely different playing fields and you know that. The difference is # of scholarships, massive facilities difference, massive money difference. The fact that FCS schools have their own playoff system is pretty darn big difference.

This is why an FCS school rarely beats an FBS school in football, whereas good quality A-10 schools routinely beat P5 schools and advance to play in the same National Championship tournament as P5 schools play in (see Dayton and VCU).

 

[97spiderfan]

Yikes. My conclusion: we are going to lose Rocco at some point. One of the RTD writers this week declared him to be the best college football coach in the state.

If 2016 plays out the way we hope it will, there will be schools coming for him. (And according to UVA press, Mendenhall makes $3.25 million per year, and Fuentes makes $3.2 million.)

I think losing Rocco is a foregone conclusion no matter what we pay him. If we have a really good year this year, FBS programs are going to come knocking. Now, I don't know if Rocco has the allure to coach at the highest level or not, but if he does, it doesn't matter what we pay him because a high quality FBS program can blow that out of the water.

 

[MolivaManiac]

If we lose Rocco to a Sun Belt, MAC or CUSA school, i am going to lose my damn mind.

If we lose Rocco to a P5 school - i get it. That said, he's not exactly a spring chicken at 55. Consider the jobs that might provide a regional/academic appeal...

Wake Forest - if Clawson gets canned maybe we can get Dave back.
Duke - Cut is 61. if he retires in 3-4 years, DR is already close to 60.
Vandy- Mason is in his second year there. It appears that he may suck as a coach but, again, he's got a couple more years before he gets blown out of there.

What other jobs should we be looking at? BC, Ga Tech?

 

[spider fan]

Hey Rocco loved living in Charlottesville and who knows he may want to again - I mean after all if the Hoos current coach doesn't work out it wouldn't be the first time Virginia has hired the Richmond head coach. But wait that didn't work out well and besides Mendenhall probably will last at least as long on London, if not longer, and by then how old will Rocco be? Let's just hope it plays out that Rocco likes being the head coach of the Spiders so much that he stays - only time will tell. In the world of college coaching as Dr. Jung taught us in Econ the only thing that is certain is uncertainty...................

 

[WebSpinner]

my fear is not losing DR to wake should DC be canned and according to some, he is on the hot seat, it would be laycock retiring at w&m and DC going there. that would frost my behind big time. hope DR would not take on a vandy, wake, duke type of deal where you are on a moving sidewalk attempting to even come close to the big state schools year after year. every now and then you are competitive but most years you are having your butt handed to you. the prob is, one of those types of schools might take a chance on him but the big schools most likely would not. or what if odu comes after him, think they are pretty disappointed down there

 

[MrTbone]

So the title of this thread is "established goals" but as far as I'm aware, we don't have published goals for either. I suspect that both have internal goals.

Is the real discussion about expectations? They're different things...

 

[MolivaManiac]

my fear is not losing DR to wake should DC be canned and according to some, he is on the hot seat, it would be laycock retiring at w&m and DC going there. that would frost my behind big time. hope DR would not take on a vandy, wake, duke type of deal where you are on a moving sidewalk attempting to even come close to the big state schools year after year. every now and then you are competitive but most years you are having your butt handed to you. the prob is, one of those types of schools might take a chance on him but the big schools most likely would not. or what if odu comes after him, think they are pretty disappointed down there

Interesting points. Hadn't even thought about that DC to Williamsburg scenario.

 

[9Legs]

I know this is going to be a terribly unpopular opinion, but I believe our basketball team is relatively stronger than our football team in the grand scheme of things. Our football team is generally relegated to playing against teams outside the top 128 schools. If our basketball team was forced to do the same (which may eventually happen in the FBS schools finally decide to leave the NCAA) we would be competing for the national championship every year in basketball as well.

Take a look at the Sagarin ratings for football (which include FBS and FCS teams) and basketball. Over the past 5 years we been the 133rd best football team on average, but the 90th best basketball team on average. Add in the fact that there are a lot more basketball teams than football teams and the difference becomes larger (basketball team is better than 74% of teams on average, football team is better than 47% of teams on average).

I know it is not an apples to apples comparison, the differences between the football system and basketball system make them difficult to compare, but thinking its just as difficult to be similarly competitive in D1 basketball as we are in FCS football is pretty absurd. The talent levels, coaching and team strength required are drastically different. For example, our basketball team routinely beats top 25 teams, even in our down years. I don't think there is anyone who would argue our football team has ever been good enough to beat a top 25 FBS team, yet people generally consider our football team to be stronger than our basketball team.

I do not mean to belittle the success of our football program, it is a really good program with some really good players and coaches. However, if we had similar talent, coaching, etc. on our basketball team I do not think we would perform better than we have under Mooney.

I take issue with your last paragraph Fan 2011

"However, if we had similar talent, coaching, etc. on our basketball team I do not think we would perform better than we have under Mooney.[/QUOTE]"

This is Mooney's 12th year and he has a win rate that is 54%.
THAT IS 54%!!!!!!!!!

During these 12 years the quality and experience of his coaching staff cannot even be mentioned in the same sentence with Coach Rocco's staff. The biggest contrast is that Coach Rocco is not so (insecure, stubborn, hard-headed, close-minded)-(you pick the term) that he will not adjust his coaching philosophy or bring in the best assistants available that will give his team the best chance to WIN!!!

 

[Ulla1]

Only place could see DR leaving for would be Penn State; they would be lucky to get him. OSC

 

[fan2011]

I take issue with your last paragraph Fan 2011

"However, if we had similar talent, coaching, etc. on our basketball team I do not think we would perform better than we have under Mooney."

This is Mooney's 12th year and he has a win rate that is 54%.
THAT IS 54%!!!!!!!!!

During these 12 years the quality and experience of his coaching staff cannot even be mentioned in the same sentence with Coach Rocco's staff. The biggest contrast is that Coach Rocco is not so (insecure, stubborn, hard-headed, close-minded)-(you pick the term) that he will not adjust his coaching philosophy or bring in the best assistants available that will give his team the best chance to WIN!!!

And Mooney has a 95% win rate against teams in the bottom half of the RPI. That is who we play against in football. It is much harder to compete with the big boys in basketball than it is to compete with FCS schools in football. If basketball was cut in half like football and we were stuck on the wrong side we would be a perennial 'powerhouse'. If our football team moved up to FBS we would consider .500 seasons a blessing.

 

[spiderman]

Really, you are trying to compare the FCS/ FBS relationship to the A-10/ P5 conferences. Come on. They operate on completely different playing fields and you know that. The difference is # of scholarships, massive facilities difference, massive money difference. The fact that FCS schools have their own playoff system is pretty darn big difference.

This is why an FCS school rarely beats an FBS school in football, whereas good quality A-10 schools routinely beat P5 schools and advance to play in the same National Championship tournament as P5 schools play in (see Dayton and VCU).

I'm just responding to comments above. our goals are not the same in both sports. anyone who thinks our goal in basketball is a national championship should have their head examined. it is in football since we're on the same playing field as other FCS schools. we're not on the same playing field as P5 basketball programs even if we can beat them sometimes. number of scholarships has nothing to do with it.

 

[iSpider]

Interesting points. Hadn't even thought about that DC to Williamsburg scenario.

Why would DR even consider W&M? Is he looking for less pay and to coach at a state school?

 

[WebSpinner]

i, if you read again, the initials are DC, Dave Clawson, not DR. Dave's wife is a w&m grad and if canned at wake and laycock finally retires, a nice landing spot for him

 

[iSpider]

i, if you read again, the initials are DC, Dave Clawson, not DR. Dave's wife is a w&m grad and if canned at wake and laycock finally retires, a nice landing spot for him

Sorry. My bad. Thanks for pointing it out.

 

[73CPA]

DR will not be leaving is my prediction. No P5 team will hire an FCS head coach as their head coach, which means he would be some type of assistant - OC or DC. I think he likes his current situation. Despite our expectations now, he is under less pressure than if he took over a large FBS program.

 

[97spiderfan]

I can guarantee a school like Penn State is not hiring an FCS coach.

 

[Ulla1]

I can guarantee a school like Penn State is not hiring an FCS coach.

A school like Auburn hired a high school coach. OSC

 

[WebSpinner]

so did ole miss and houston, does happen. really like him, has done this at two stops now and has been an assistant head coach at a power 5 school. actually hope he gets an offer but turns it down and remains here but would be happy for him, he deserves a chance. from what i hear, both he and his wife like it here and are comfortable. depends on what job comes his way and what his goals are and time is getting short.

 

[I-M-UR]

"If our basketball team was forced to do the same (which may eventually happen in the FBS schools finally decide to leave the NCAA) we would be competing for the national championship every year in basketball as well."

Wow do I disagree, we can't win our conference in basketball.

 

[I-M-UR]

And Mooney has a 95% win rate against teams in the bottom half of the RPI. That is who we play against in football. It is much harder to compete with the big boys in basketball than it is to compete with FCS schools in football. If basketball was cut in half like football and we were stuck on the wrong side we would be a perennial 'powerhouse'. If our football team moved up to FBS we would consider .500 seasons a blessing.

our conference, the A10, is not a P5 or P6 in bball and we can't win it. If we're comparing coaches no competition Rocco is by far the better coach. If we talking goals 96 teams make the NCAA or NIT tournament we should be one of them more often than not.

 

[GKiller]

it's cyclical. 5 years ago hoops was in Sweet 16 and football didn't make the playoffs and followed that up by going winless in the conference the next season. Maybe there were similar threads on football board then saying why can't we be more like basketball, I can't remember but more than likely there were. I don't think anyone can dispute it is far from apples to apples, they are different levels, and different in other ways too. Each has some advantages and some disadvantages in relation to resources, competition, etc. Who cares really? I like both sports. I'm grateful football is running well right now. I get there are some football only fans and some hoops only fans. Most like both and just have a stronger preference for 1 or the other. What I don't get is why the need to adversarily compare & there seems to be a decent amount of that the last few years. Hopefully we get them both running strong at the same time.

 

[Spiders05]

Who cares really? I like both sports. I'm grateful football is running well right now. I get there are some football only fans and some hoops only fans. Most like both and just have a stronger preference for 1 or the other. What I don't get is why the need to adversarily compare & there seems to be a decent amount of that the last few years. Hopefully we get them both running strong at the same time.

+1

 

[97spiderfan]

our conference, the A10, is not a P5 or P6 in bball and we can't win it. If we're comparing coaches no competition Rocco is by far the better coach. If we talking goals 96 teams make the NCAA or NIT tournament we should be one of them more often than not.

+1. Comparing our football and hoops program is an inexact science at best, but again if you were to do a side by side comparison of how both programs are run and the leadership each has, it would be really tough to say the basketball program is in better shape at the present.

And while, I love our football program, the hoops program is where my passion lies, and the past 5 years have been largely disappointing and frankly am tired of hearing excuses and where we rank according to Sagarin, Kenpom, or any other artificial metric. The only metric that matters is making the postseason, something our football team seems to have figured out and our basketball team continues to not figure out.