Epic Collapse
- Thread starter UR Fan 2
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I feel like if we won last night, won the next round at the Garden, and then lost by 2 in the final ... I'd be reading the same complaints the next day. heck, we could have won the NIT and we'd still be reading the same compaints. I swear I think some of you feel OWED a sweet 16 season.
Adding to my last post. If the team roster is made up of the same size players, then the current system is fine. I like our team and our coach. I would however like to see some diversity in the offense that would allow the program to be more attractive to the big men we need for things like rebounding.
Can only speak for myself, but getting to MSG would have been a real feather in our cap. Whatever happened there would have been gravy. But an 18 point meltdown is pretty hard to stomach. It's difficult to take away many positives from that and a game that should have truly been ours. I guess it depends upon what one's standards and definitions of expectations, accomplishment, and success are.
I think we have plenty of big man talent between TA/TJ/ANO. I do think it's absurd that someone like ANO is often outside the arc where his talent is little used.
I think the ability to recruit big time big man talent isn't symptomatic of our offense, it's just that there aren't that many really talented big guys to go around, and where there are, they tend to get snatched up by power 5 schools.
I have seen tremendous improvement in our inside game this year in particular, we have two back to basket guys averaging double figures. When is the last time that happened? Feels like a long time ago, perhaps even never...
I think the ability to recruit big time big man talent isn't symptomatic of our offense, it's just that there aren't that many really talented big guys to go around, and where there are, they tend to get snatched up by power 5 schools.
I have seen tremendous improvement in our inside game this year in particular, we have two back to basket guys averaging double figures. When is the last time that happened? Feels like a long time ago, perhaps even never...
K, I agree they're not the best rebounding group of bigs we've ever had. I do think overall they're the best overall group, though.
T, ANO's post game is starting to look really good. Terry's is phenominal, and TJ's is pretty close to that. these three have developed impressively on the offensive block. and while our offense flows from the perimeter, it does eventually look to the post. you don't want all 3 on the block, so each of the 3 will be outside often but one ends up inside. they work well there, TJ being the best at passing out with enough pace to give a shooter time to get off open shots.
as a group, they need to rebound better. blocking your own man's shot is great. leaving your man/area to try to block someone elses guy ... that leads to an easy putback. seen too much of that this year. ANO in particular, Deion some times.
Terry had one 10+ rebound game in the 1st 25 games, and 6 in the last 10. plus his improved offense. he's really becoming a force.
T, ANO's post game is starting to look really good. Terry's is phenominal, and TJ's is pretty close to that. these three have developed impressively on the offensive block. and while our offense flows from the perimeter, it does eventually look to the post. you don't want all 3 on the block, so each of the 3 will be outside often but one ends up inside. they work well there, TJ being the best at passing out with enough pace to give a shooter time to get off open shots.
as a group, they need to rebound better. blocking your own man's shot is great. leaving your man/area to try to block someone elses guy ... that leads to an easy putback. seen too much of that this year. ANO in particular, Deion some times.
Terry had one 10+ rebound game in the 1st 25 games, and 6 in the last 10. plus his improved offense. he's really becoming a force.
Hey there, not going to pile on, but it was a truly exciting second half from a Miami fan's perspective. I don't claim to know all your team's strengths or weaknesses, so hopefully you can tolerate a polite point of view from the other side.
When it comes to the first half rebounds, I can honestly say that Miami was doing nothing to capitalize on the height advantage. Many of your defensive rebounds came on long shots with no real presence by a Miami player down low. We ONLY got ahead on rebounds in the second half by going inside with some consistency, even if it was mostly drives and slashes inside.
It's so strange, a Richmond poster had gone over to the Miami board and made a comment about our size advantage. At first I thought it was strange, as Tonye Jekiri is really our only big who actually plays big. Our second biggest player, Ivan Cruz Uceda, is one of those big Europeans who shoots 3s. Our third biggest player is also a 3-point shooter. And our big who actually DID play well and surprise everyone is a kid who was a 5th year transfer who had barely gotten any minutes all year (and who was mercifully given his most playing time all season on Senior Day - he's the ONLY player we are losing to graduation).
Anyhow, once I checked your roster and saw what our size differential was, I was actually shocked that we did NOTHING to capitalize in the first half. Jekiri was constantly coming to the top of the key to set screens, but then he never rolled down low to take passes or even get rebounds. The kid has had an amazing runs of double-doubles this year, but I'd be shocked if he got more than a couple of rebounds in the first half, he was just never in position. Even the commentators picked up on how Miami was not utilizing this advantage throughout the first half. And the commentators kept saying "one and done" when talking about Miami possessions and shots in the first half.
Look at what we did - EIGHTEEN points in the first half. I have been a huge fan of Miami since the second season we restarted our basketball program (1986, my freshman year), and I can only recall a couple of games when we first joined the Big East (and went winless in the BE) where we were so terrible on offense for the first half.
And I absolutely give credit to your defense, it was excellent. But that doesn't explain ALL of the missed layups and dunks, and it certainly doesn't address the "4 perimeter guys taking 3s, while never posting up our 7 foot center" offense that we were running.
I do empathize with you on how your second half went. I'm sure it was heartbreaking to watch the lead slip away, and it certainly sounded like it from how your fans quieted down. Miami fans have been experiencing a lot of this in football, as the team tries to play not to lose. And I can't speak to everything your coach did, I'm just talking about a couple of possessions where your guy had the ball near the paint, and then dribbled back out past the 3-point line. It certainly seemed more like "prevent defense" than continuing to do what had made you successful in the first 30 minutes.
Honestly, I was shocked and relieved by how the game played out, even when we seemed to do everything wrong in the last 30 seconds. I would not say that Larranaga "outcoached" your coach, but he did a couple of things right FOR US. He kept his cool, found a hot player (Joe Thomas), benched a guy making bad decisions for a while (Manu Lecomte), and then let all of our first-half disasters shoot their way out of their slumps in the second half. That might have been our best free-throw shooting run of the season (up until our last 2 attempts). For a nice string there, we simply did not miss.
Again, I tip my hat to you guys, that was possibly one of the lowest lows I've ever experienced (first half) followed by one of the strangest highs. What did we end up leading for, only the final minute? I almost lost my sanity last night. You guys played hard and with great integrity, even when there were a few bumps and bad calls. And, honestly, I was not impressed by the refs at all, there were long stretches where both of us got NO CALLS AT ALL. Just ridiculous.
Sorry that y'all had to go through such a heartbreaker, but it was a helluva game from a drama standpoint. Most of you are spot on in pointing out that if you hit a few more FTs or a couple more shots, Miami never completes the comeback.
Have a great off-season, gentlemen!
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One of the reasons we were 341st in total rebounds is because we play at a slow pace, so there are less rebounds to pull down to begin with. We were actually top 300 in defensive rebounding percentage (number of defensive rebounds pulled down out of total defensive rebounding opportunities.) We were 281st, which is still bad though.
Dayton's guards were ~6 inches taller than ours. We the 2 shortest players in the conference play 30+ minutes for us most nights. I agree that height isn't everything and I am not trying to make excuses, I am just trying to give some perspective on how short our team is.
You only adressed the size of guards. You might want to comment on & take into account the size of Dayton's forwards and center. Conclusion - based upon where Dayton ended up end of the year in the conference and were rewarded with a trip to the NCAA's, I don't think the average height hurt them with no player taller than 6'6". My perspective is that Dayton with an undersized team & especially for "bigs" did just fine.
Regarding our "taking the air out of the ball," as best as I can surmise, the evidence for this is a bunch of old guys texted SpiderK from Florida, and some dude who never watches Richmond made this observation at a bar to somebody else. And of course, the "blame Mooney" crew says it because it is another thing to pile on top.
Facts:
we scored 30 points in the 1st half, 31 in the secondwe had 35 possessions in the 1st half, 42 in the second. we took 16.54 seconds per possession in the 1st half, 14.19 in the second.Even if you omit the last 4 possessions where we were just running downcourt for the first shot, we averaged 15.13 seconds per possession in the second half.If you adjust further for a couple possessions where they fouled us a couple times in a row, and count those as one long possession, we averaged 15.97 seconds per possession.there were 12 possessions in the first half that lasted longer than 20 seconds, 13 in the second half
All of this is available in the play by play.
Also, there is this fact: we gave up 18 points in the first half, and 45 in the second. Just a thought, but maybe it wasn't the offense that was the issue.
Facts:
we scored 30 points in the 1st half, 31 in the secondwe had 35 possessions in the 1st half, 42 in the second. we took 16.54 seconds per possession in the 1st half, 14.19 in the second.Even if you omit the last 4 possessions where we were just running downcourt for the first shot, we averaged 15.13 seconds per possession in the second half.If you adjust further for a couple possessions where they fouled us a couple times in a row, and count those as one long possession, we averaged 15.97 seconds per possession.there were 12 possessions in the first half that lasted longer than 20 seconds, 13 in the second half
All of this is available in the play by play.
Also, there is this fact: we gave up 18 points in the first half, and 45 in the second. Just a thought, but maybe it wasn't the offense that was the issue.
Out rebounded 27 to 12 in second half and gave up a 24 point swing in about 15 minutes. I agreed that it was an "Epic Collapse". There is no doubt about that, we saw several this year. If you can't rebound on either end it doesn't matter how good your defense is, and you better not miss a shot.
Good analysis Kneepad. The Mooney bashing on this board is really tiresome. Too many criticisms with no facts to back them up. I wouldn't deny anyone's right to state their opinion, but how about throwing out some facts to support it.
I replayed the game that i had recorded. Key turnover by SDJ with around minute to go in full court pressure and they converted. But while we gave up 45 points in second half, mostly in the paint, it was clearly our missed shots, many of which were open looks, that doomed us. That and some ill-timed missed ft's. I actually felt a little better about our performance after watching the replay than in real time. Not much, but a little better. In spite of Miami's scoring this was clearly a winnable game.
Despite the first half big lead, we missed what I thought were a ton of open looks. Not a big deal b/c we had a 12 point lead-but shooting got worse, Miami heated up.
The first half box score--KA and SDJ 2-10 combined.
the 2nd half box score--KA and SDJ 2-10 combined.
The first half box score--KA and SDJ 2-10 combined.
the 2nd half box score--KA and SDJ 2-10 combined.
I agree with Kneepad - I don't think we slowed the game down and took the air out of the ball.
I think we might have played not to lose, where Miami was playing to win. But the key was - we missed some really good open looks, especially towards the end when Miami had made their comeback. And we missed key free throws. On top of that - Miami just outplayed us, especially on the boards. They gave everything they had and looked like a team desperate to win. They simply just beat us up in the 2nd half, but at the same time - we had open shots - just didn't make any.
This was an up and down season, and this loss really was typical of some of our losses. Defense keeps us in the game. But scoring droughts and inability to keep the other team in check on the boards really killed us.
Who do you blame for that? Unfortunatley - it falls on the coach and staff, even though they did not miss any shots, grab any rebounds, etc. Just the way it is.
I think we might have played not to lose, where Miami was playing to win. But the key was - we missed some really good open looks, especially towards the end when Miami had made their comeback. And we missed key free throws. On top of that - Miami just outplayed us, especially on the boards. They gave everything they had and looked like a team desperate to win. They simply just beat us up in the 2nd half, but at the same time - we had open shots - just didn't make any.
This was an up and down season, and this loss really was typical of some of our losses. Defense keeps us in the game. But scoring droughts and inability to keep the other team in check on the boards really killed us.
Who do you blame for that? Unfortunatley - it falls on the coach and staff, even though they did not miss any shots, grab any rebounds, etc. Just the way it is.
I'm generally a supporter of CM, so I dont subscribe to the bashing and do prefer that substantive arguments be made with facts.
One thing that is undeniable is that we do have scoring droughts. We are not unique in this, but perhaps we feel it acutely as fans. I think that translates into people feeling like we have slowed things down, when it's really just that we have empty possessions.
That problem requires some fixing. Hopefully it's a function of having a 4th scorer out there.
FWIW, I remember a time where we hoped we'd have a third scorer, so we are making progress.
One thing that is undeniable is that we do have scoring droughts. We are not unique in this, but perhaps we feel it acutely as fans. I think that translates into people feeling like we have slowed things down, when it's really just that we have empty possessions.
That problem requires some fixing. Hopefully it's a function of having a 4th scorer out there.
FWIW, I remember a time where we hoped we'd have a third scorer, so we are making progress.
I think I would have felt differently about this game had I watched it on TV instead of from the 6th row. On TV, I imagine it would have seemed that we just completely handed the game away and lost in the worst way possible. In person, I didn't feel that we did anything horribly wrong to lose, though there were some things I wish we had done differently.
Basketball almost always has a way of evening out at the end. We were not 18 points better than Miami, even though we were ahead by 18 points. Their big guys also missed about 7 shots at the rim, and had he made even half of those it would have been a much closer game from the start.
I think mentally, we may struggle at times almost giving into the notion that when we get a big lead, it's fool's gold and we can't possibly keep it up. Then it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Basketball almost always has a way of evening out at the end. We were not 18 points better than Miami, even though we were ahead by 18 points. Their big guys also missed about 7 shots at the rim, and had he made even half of those it would have been a much closer game from the start.
I think mentally, we may struggle at times almost giving into the notion that when we get a big lead, it's fool's gold and we can't possibly keep it up. Then it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.
I think the reality is we are not good enough to blow out a team like Miami, but not many teams are. Miami made a run as all good teams do and we couldn't answer the bell.
Losing a game to a good ACC team like Miami is a bit different than coughing up end of game leads to the likes of Northeastern and Wake, like we did earlier in the season. Yes, same result at the end, but 2 completely different caliber of teams.
Losing a game to a good ACC team like Miami is a bit different than coughing up end of game leads to the likes of Northeastern and Wake, like we did earlier in the season. Yes, same result at the end, but 2 completely different caliber of teams.
We built a big lead by out-rebounding Miami in the first half 19-18. Then with 12 minutes left went to our regular shoot and run the other way offense and stand around after the shot because we have never heard of a box-out defense. We got out rebounded 27-12 in second half. I read on this board the reason is that Miami tried harder. Why didnt we try just as hard?? We gave up on the boards and put all the pressure on our mediocre (2 or 3) on 5 prevent us from winning offense. Sugar coat it all you want, we choked and lost. Every UR player and coach would agree with that.
This post was edited on 3/27 5:38 PM by SpiderK
This post was edited on 3/27 5:38 PM by SpiderK
for crying out loud, we didn't choke.
we outrebounded them early because they couldn't get inside against our defense and the settled for jumpers. we did a GREAT job rebounding in that 1st half. some of it is balls bouncing the right way. some was just hustle. but was had better position than Miami simply because they were shooting jumpers. like we do sometimes.
They attacked and got inside in the 2nd half. we couldn't keep them out. not sure why. either on ball has to be better, or our help has to be better. but Miami has some athletes so they got inside. and from there, they rebounded like crazy. partly because our interior guys left there man to help on the drive. Miami got the benefit of a ton of call ... some pretty phantom, too.
yet with all that. giving up 45 point. getting outrebounded. etc. we're still not talking about any of that if we just hit a coupld of really open shots in that 2nd half. heck, even in the 1st half when we should have buried them. we shoot poorly all game. and lost by 2 to a good team. yet we look for blame all over. we misses open shots. stuff happens.
we outrebounded them early because they couldn't get inside against our defense and the settled for jumpers. we did a GREAT job rebounding in that 1st half. some of it is balls bouncing the right way. some was just hustle. but was had better position than Miami simply because they were shooting jumpers. like we do sometimes.
They attacked and got inside in the 2nd half. we couldn't keep them out. not sure why. either on ball has to be better, or our help has to be better. but Miami has some athletes so they got inside. and from there, they rebounded like crazy. partly because our interior guys left there man to help on the drive. Miami got the benefit of a ton of call ... some pretty phantom, too.
yet with all that. giving up 45 point. getting outrebounded. etc. we're still not talking about any of that if we just hit a coupld of really open shots in that 2nd half. heck, even in the 1st half when we should have buried them. we shoot poorly all game. and lost by 2 to a good team. yet we look for blame all over. we misses open shots. stuff happens.
I think the game was called very differently starting about 5 minutes into the second half. On the broadcast the commentators made a mention of how Miami thought they were getting 'hammered' inside and getting no foul calls. After that Miami seemed to get a foul call every time they went inside. This made them stop settling for jumpers and just drive to the basket knowing they would at least get free throws.
2011 - you are on target - watched the game in person and then on TV replay. At the game saw Larranaga give an official an intense "taking to" a few minutes into the second half and then Miami started getting a lot more "calls" on contested shots than had previously been the case. Also think objectivity would be better served if ESPN announcers had been more even handed in that broadcast. Liked the ESPNU announcers for Arizona State game much better - of course winning helps that perspective!
