To put it kindly, UR does not want to be associated with Hampton or NC A&T in the CAA. UR has no right to look down its nose at any other football school, unless it can beat them on the field.
The move to the PL will kill UR football.
Do you approve of the move to the Patriot League?
- Thread starter Ferrum Spider
- Start date
The move to the PL will kill UR football.
The CAA was a great football conference. It has been run worse than any other conference and now is middling at best. It’s oversized and has way too many weak teams. I’m not saying the Patriot is great but there’s not a huge delta amongst any of the FCS east coast conferences currently.
Agree with everything here. It's twice the size of the PL so all being equal it should get twice the participants in the playoffs. If the CAA gets 4 the PL should get two. I think the PL is trending up and the CAA down. CAA hope that Nova doesn't follow Richmond.
Money must be behind the decision to join the Patriot League. The NIL costs to field even a good CAA team have got to be substantial. .
I know the FBS scholarship limit is increasing for football - I assume the same for 1AA, which has always been slightly less - so yes, I think money is a major factor. Again - UR prides itself as this wealthy school with multi-billion dollar endowment. Which I know you can't use the endowment, but it is a sign of the strong financial backing the school has. But when it comes to spend money on sports or there is a concern of money in sports - we then act like this small school, private, not a lot of students or alumni - so we act like we can't afford anything.
While the FBS is having the number of scholarships increased, they are also being required to reduce
the size of their rosters. Leaving more players available for FCS football.
But, call me naive, but I agree with Gallipolli and think the Patriot League move is based on the
conference’s teams. I believe that W & M and Nova will be showing up as Patriot League teams.
the size of their rosters. Leaving more players available for FCS football.
But, call me naive, but I agree with Gallipolli and think the Patriot League move is based on the
conference’s teams. I believe that W & M and Nova will be showing up as Patriot League teams.
If they do the PL will be the Premier East Coast FCS league.
Are you saying a PL with UR, W&M, Nova and Elon might be bette than a CAA whose strongest teams are Bryant, Campbell and Monmouth?
I feel they had been mentioned with the PL before joining the SoCon.
That is a big IF - lets not forget, we are talking about the Patriot league. This is one step below the IVY league, and they are more concerned about academics and reputation than they are being the best FCS football conference. We fit the profile because we are a small liberal arts college, with a strong endowment, and high academic standards. And while some other schools may fit the profile somewhat - I just don't know if the Patriot league is looking to become a premier league for FCS football. They are very similar to the UR mantra - they like to compete. So maybe they have some good teams here and there that can "compete" in the playoffs. But not sure they are looking to become a destination for schools or large amount of transfers coming to FCS.
Former season ticket holder for 22 years here. This included a time when I was in college (not a student at U of R)
Id rather of us move up with JMU and become a doormat in FBS over the move we made to the Patriot League. Sure, its a delusional thought, but IMO not much more delusional to think a move to the PL is going to elevate our program, especially if Nova/WM stay parked in the CAA.
The CAA isn't what it was, I get wanting to leave....that doesn't mean the Patriot League will turn out like we hope.
Sometimes I don't get our fans. I have regularly seen fans blast terrible administrative decisions and swear off supporting the program because of their small potatoes mindset. Then turn around and are completely supportive of this move, to a league we regularly shit on our athletic department for trying to emulate their ethos, then act like their visionaries all of a sudden.
When schools leave a conference willingly, its almost always for better competition and more money, that was not the case here.
Imagine JMU deciding they had enough of the CAA and went to the Patriot instead of the Sun Belt. And I don't want to hear the comparisons about demographics, the fact is we competed with and regularly beat this school who is played their cards perfectly while we have gone backwards the past 8 years.
I don't know what's more concerning for the future of the football program. That half the fan base applauds this move, or that we only had 50 fans vote on this poll.
If you thought we had trouble selling tickets before playing schools like Hampton, WM, Towson coming to town, just wait until Holy Cross invades The Rob.
Call me negative all you want, but its embarrassing to see how little the admin cares about football and until they're called out on it, will continue.
Id rather of us move up with JMU and become a doormat in FBS over the move we made to the Patriot League. Sure, its a delusional thought, but IMO not much more delusional to think a move to the PL is going to elevate our program, especially if Nova/WM stay parked in the CAA.
The CAA isn't what it was, I get wanting to leave....that doesn't mean the Patriot League will turn out like we hope.
Sometimes I don't get our fans. I have regularly seen fans blast terrible administrative decisions and swear off supporting the program because of their small potatoes mindset. Then turn around and are completely supportive of this move, to a league we regularly shit on our athletic department for trying to emulate their ethos, then act like their visionaries all of a sudden.
When schools leave a conference willingly, its almost always for better competition and more money, that was not the case here.
Imagine JMU deciding they had enough of the CAA and went to the Patriot instead of the Sun Belt. And I don't want to hear the comparisons about demographics, the fact is we competed with and regularly beat this school who is played their cards perfectly while we have gone backwards the past 8 years.
I don't know what's more concerning for the future of the football program. That half the fan base applauds this move, or that we only had 50 fans vote on this poll.
If you thought we had trouble selling tickets before playing schools like Hampton, WM, Towson coming to town, just wait until Holy Cross invades The Rob.
Call me negative all you want, but its embarrassing to see how little the admin cares about football and until they're called out on it, will continue.
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I hear your concerns Ferrum and feel the same sentiment in some ways. There's no question that without W&M and Villanova joining that the Patriot League is a step down from the CAA, even with a CAA that has teams like Hampton and Campbell and will no longer have Delaware and JMU. I think there are a lot of considerations our athletic department had when making this decision and I think the move to PL now for football given the current landscape of CAA and college athletics is different than when Cooper wanted to do it close to 20 years ago.
At best, UR's intentions are genuine in wanting to position UR to be successful long-term in football and felt with the current state of the CAA that this was the best approach. Us going FBS is unrealistic and will necessitate a lot more resources than we have/are willing to give. Also, many would rather be successful and do well at the 1-AA level than be a doormat in a terrible FBS conference. Football is not a money maker for us and I don't think there will be much of a difference in ticket sales whether we play Hampton or Holy Cross. Our home opener for Wofford was half empty and tickets were going for $8.04 so demand is already pretty low.
At worst, UR really doesn't give a crap about our football program and hopes to continue de-emphasizing it in a stepwise way and this is the first step. Right now a lot of the older generation remains involved with football and they don't want to deal with upset donors by completely de-emphasizing it. In the next 30-40 years, where will UR football be, I have no idea.
I tend to be more optimistic and think that UR's intentions are more genuine in balancing UR's best football success with the realities of resources/investments in a program. I am 100% with you in hoping that UR has the mentality of wanting to be the best in athletics and that athletics and our overall reputation can be synergistic with one another. I will say, I am okay with the crowd not getting the proverbial pitchforks about this move simply because of how the CAA is now. I am also okay with not going to FBS because the investments/resources for that is too much for very little benefit. I think our focus should be on working to be among the best FCS teams. Whether Patriot League is ultimately the best move for that, time will tell. I do disagree with the timing of us going to PL and also did not like the reason for being more geographic and alumni aligned as a reason. We should be in the best conference to help us be the best football team. If it happens to be with other like minded institutions then great. This idea that we have more alumni in the northeast and that will some how make any more difference in attendance/interest in our football program is not a good one in my opinion.
Elephant in the room. With the expense of 63 full rides, how long does the Brass accept abysmal attendance? Love Spider football, even more than basketball, but the program as virtually all FCS programs is bleeding money.
The zenith of our football program nationally was a few decades ago when we routinely competed with the "Big Boys." Now, the Big Boys are in the process of stiff arming mid level basketball programs too.
Sad state of affairs.
The zenith of our football program nationally was a few decades ago when we routinely competed with the "Big Boys." Now, the Big Boys are in the process of stiff arming mid level basketball programs too.
Sad state of affairs.
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The athletic department and the school in general do nothing to promote athletics locally. It's their own making.
What happened to the local high school bands that would at least provide a modicum
of gametime noise and halftime entertainment?
These are very good points. The rule is play in the best conference that provides a school with national exposure, in which we can compete for a national championship and which is affordable. The Patriot League does none of that.
Our recruiting will fall off and interest in the program will decline. We will no longer be playing W&M in the last regular season of the year, with playoff implications on the line.
The admin is cutting off the football program at its knees. I suspect the Athletic Department and coaches only rubber stamped the decision by the new president, who wanted to leave his mark on the school. He did it, that's for sure.
Rule #1, just because they are in charge, doesn't mean they are smart.
Yes! Our move to the Patriot League has been a complete failure!
Oh, we haven't even played one game in the PL yet, much less gone through an entire recruiting cycle or a full season of competition to judge the results? People who jump to conclusions without any supporting evidence are proven wrong more often than not.
Oh, we haven't even played one game in the PL yet, much less gone through an entire recruiting cycle or a full season of competition to judge the results? People who jump to conclusions without any supporting evidence are proven wrong more often than not.
I would have preferred we not move, at least this soon. Taking a wait and see approach.
Which is totally fine.
No problem with people opposed to the move. I just disagree with those who have already declared it a failure and the end of the program even though there is no absolutely evidence yet illustrating that.
As always, other's mileage may vary.
He who hesitates is lost. It's only one sport, Football. If it doesn't work out as expected move again. It's not like it isn't done these days. PL appears to be way more stable than most leagues and trending up. The CAA is living on past reputation and the PL is being held down by theirs. Time will tell.
UR has more players in the NFL this year than the entire PL since it's inception. One may conclude that UR will see a drop off in recruiting talent.
Or recruits will see us remaining a top 25 team with a near guarantee of the playoffs and our recruiting gets better.
All I know is that 10-15 years ago, we were right there with JMU and others as the cream of the crop of FCS football. Now look at JMU, they are playing big boy ball and succeeding at a level that must make every fan, alumni and supporter of those programs beam with pride. Every JMU fan I know is on cloud fricking nine. Games are sold out, they were ranked in FBS last year, just went to UNC and whipped their asses.
And here we are moving to the effing Patriot League to play games against Bucknell and Georgetown every year. Teams that were warm up games, that we would blow out by 50, 10 years ago, now we will be in dogfights with. Our nice stadium is practically empty on most games day, interest in our program continues to fall year after year.
And if NOVA and William & Mary come to the Patriot League than MAYBE things won't be a complete cluster*****, but that is big if. You would think if we were going to make that move, we would have made it together with the, but it is just us making the move. Right now, we are going right where Bill Cooper wanted us to take us before the alumni rose up and drove him out. And now, they've broken us down this program down to the point, where their is put no point to even fight this. Just resignation from alumni at this point. It's been a slow bleed to get us here, but here we are.
Anyone who has any confidence in what our athletic department is taking our program needs to have their heads examined. It sickens me to think we were peers with JMU as little as 10 years ago and seeing where are respective programs are now and the directions they are both trending couldn't be more opposite.
And here we are moving to the effing Patriot League to play games against Bucknell and Georgetown every year. Teams that were warm up games, that we would blow out by 50, 10 years ago, now we will be in dogfights with. Our nice stadium is practically empty on most games day, interest in our program continues to fall year after year.
And if NOVA and William & Mary come to the Patriot League than MAYBE things won't be a complete cluster*****, but that is big if. You would think if we were going to make that move, we would have made it together with the, but it is just us making the move. Right now, we are going right where Bill Cooper wanted us to take us before the alumni rose up and drove him out. And now, they've broken us down this program down to the point, where their is put no point to even fight this. Just resignation from alumni at this point. It's been a slow bleed to get us here, but here we are.
Anyone who has any confidence in what our athletic department is taking our program needs to have their heads examined. It sickens me to think we were peers with JMU as little as 10 years ago and seeing where are respective programs are now and the directions they are both trending couldn't be more opposite.
I agree with most of what you state here. The reality is Richmond just doesn't fit the profile of a FBS football school so your comparison to JMU is a bit unfair. I'm not so sure at the rate that the power schools are pulling away in this pay for play era that they will be able to keep up either. Richmond just isn't going to put athletics over academics. I wish that Richmond would learn that leveraging athletics success could build the overall Richmond brand. Athletics and academics can coexistence and complement each other.
I read somewhere the other day that VCU just passed JMU academically. Fricin VCU.
I completed understand the sentiment that you all are sharing. I remember being at college gameday in 2016 when we beat JMU and it was an awesome experience. I am in complete agreement that I want us to have the mentality of athletics and academics working synergistically with one another as evident by numerous other schools who use athletics to leverage and boost their school profile.
I will say though that in fairness to our athletic department, we aren't a JMU when it comes to school profile. We do not have the resources, infrastructure, money to be an FBS school. Even if we did join FBS, for every JMU success stories there are plenty more of the UMass's of the world that the football is on a sinking ship and its dragging down all of its athletics department. In today's day-and-age of college football, the divide is becoming even more apparent between the haves and have-nots. Not only would we need money for a lot more scholarships, coaching salaries, facilities, but even the higher NIL to keep up with the Jones's is too much. All for what? To be in Conference USA and hope we finish 6-6 and make it to the Cheez-itz bowl? I don't know how many others feel this way, but I do not want to hurt all of our other sports for the sake of chasing an FBS pipe dream.
This leads me to the next point. Just because we aren't throwing everything we have at football, doesn't mean we aren't dedicated to the athletic success on this campus. I can't find the newsletter for it, but didn't we have 10 out of our 19 teams either finish 1st or 2nd this year in the A10 conference? We also had 5 championships this year (WBall regular season + tournament, MBall regular season, Football regular season, WLax tournament) which is the most since the mid 2000s. The reality is we don't have infinite amount of money/resources and we have to pick and choose our battles. I think many people would rather strive for national success in basketball first and foremost, and also have success with sports like lacrosse or baseball than put all our eggs in the football basket like UMass has.
I agree though that the timing of the move of Patriot League was not good, nor was the reason we gave to be near other teams geographically where our alumni reside. I do think CAA is unstable and will likely break apart at some point, and whether teams like W&M and Villanova come to the Patriot League, time will tell. Also, I wouldn't say it has hurt our recruiting so far. Look at the other offers of high school recruits who have committed here. They have been very solid and comparable to years past. We even have a verbal commitment from a recruit who had P5 offers from Tennessee at one point. The goal is to make deep runs in the NCAA tournament. The conference affiliation is a means to that end.
I will say though that in fairness to our athletic department, we aren't a JMU when it comes to school profile. We do not have the resources, infrastructure, money to be an FBS school. Even if we did join FBS, for every JMU success stories there are plenty more of the UMass's of the world that the football is on a sinking ship and its dragging down all of its athletics department. In today's day-and-age of college football, the divide is becoming even more apparent between the haves and have-nots. Not only would we need money for a lot more scholarships, coaching salaries, facilities, but even the higher NIL to keep up with the Jones's is too much. All for what? To be in Conference USA and hope we finish 6-6 and make it to the Cheez-itz bowl? I don't know how many others feel this way, but I do not want to hurt all of our other sports for the sake of chasing an FBS pipe dream.
This leads me to the next point. Just because we aren't throwing everything we have at football, doesn't mean we aren't dedicated to the athletic success on this campus. I can't find the newsletter for it, but didn't we have 10 out of our 19 teams either finish 1st or 2nd this year in the A10 conference? We also had 5 championships this year (WBall regular season + tournament, MBall regular season, Football regular season, WLax tournament) which is the most since the mid 2000s. The reality is we don't have infinite amount of money/resources and we have to pick and choose our battles. I think many people would rather strive for national success in basketball first and foremost, and also have success with sports like lacrosse or baseball than put all our eggs in the football basket like UMass has.
I agree though that the timing of the move of Patriot League was not good, nor was the reason we gave to be near other teams geographically where our alumni reside. I do think CAA is unstable and will likely break apart at some point, and whether teams like W&M and Villanova come to the Patriot League, time will tell. Also, I wouldn't say it has hurt our recruiting so far. Look at the other offers of high school recruits who have committed here. They have been very solid and comparable to years past. We even have a verbal commitment from a recruit who had P5 offers from Tennessee at one point. The goal is to make deep runs in the NCAA tournament. The conference affiliation is a means to that end.
I agree that we are not set up in any fashion to be an FBS program. I didn't mean to imply that we are. What I did imply is that we went from a Top FCS football program in the country, playing in the strongest FCS league in the country to now moving to the Patriot League, probably one of the weakest FCS league in the country and comprised of teams that a decade ago we all thought and were very much beneath our program.
Past athletic department leaders (Jim Miller, Chuck Boone) would not have allowed the CAA to spiral the way it did, because they had respect and a large amount of input over the direction of the conference. Current leadership does not have the same gravitas and vis a vis the University of Richmond does not the same clout it once had.
We used to wield an outsized influence for a school of our size, locally, within our conferences, and statewide. We don't anymore and we are trending downward with each passing year.
I get a feeling UR shows up to these CAA and A10 meetings with the AD's and we just sit there and say - we are just here to compete, not too worried about winning or how well the conference does, just as long as we can compete.
I think a lot of what you say is true in terms of how much weight we carry now vs. the past. I would add though, that I am not sure how much of our lack of voice in the current CAA is a product of us not carrying the same gravitas or how much of it is us only being football members and now only only 1 of 16 teams as opposed to 1 of 12. More teams in the conference means each one has a smaller piece of the pie, particularly us as football only members. I am sure one of the reasons we left the CAA was the lack of voice the commissioner Joe D'Antonio allowed us to have and our dissatisfaction in the way he is running this conference. I don't think UR was fully on board with wanting to accept several of the new CAA members and also our TV deal with FloSports.
Some thoughts on various posts on page 3 of this thread (don't want to use the quote function, my post would be way too long).
* "We don't want to associate with Hampton and NCA&T." Wait, I thought we were a "woke" school. Wouldn't a "woke" school be very happy with an association with an HBCU?
* We were competitive with JMU on the field back in the day, yes. But college football has changed since 2015. JMU is a huge (compared to us) public school that has become an FBS school on the backs of its students, who pay an astronomical amount in student athletic fees, about half of their budget. It has lower academic standards. It can easily get walk-ons. It will eventually pay millions in NIL. Their administrators have a different idea of where they want their football team to be. They will never be an P4 program. The Sun Belt is as high as they will ever get.
* Jim Miller and Chuck Boone would not have been able to stop JMU, ODU and Delaware from transitioning to FBS. They had no power over those other team's administrators. The CAA was always an uneasy balance between huge public schools, with varying academic standards, and us and Villanova. It was a shotgun wedding from the start. The PL, OTOH, has no academic/enrollment outliers.
* "We don't want to associate with Hampton and NCA&T." Wait, I thought we were a "woke" school. Wouldn't a "woke" school be very happy with an association with an HBCU?
* We were competitive with JMU on the field back in the day, yes. But college football has changed since 2015. JMU is a huge (compared to us) public school that has become an FBS school on the backs of its students, who pay an astronomical amount in student athletic fees, about half of their budget. It has lower academic standards. It can easily get walk-ons. It will eventually pay millions in NIL. Their administrators have a different idea of where they want their football team to be. They will never be an P4 program. The Sun Belt is as high as they will ever get.
* Jim Miller and Chuck Boone would not have been able to stop JMU, ODU and Delaware from transitioning to FBS. They had no power over those other team's administrators. The CAA was always an uneasy balance between huge public schools, with varying academic standards, and us and Villanova. It was a shotgun wedding from the start. The PL, OTOH, has no academic/enrollment outliers.
I think you have to consider the school's view of its "territory". UR chooses to be a northeastern oriented school, inclusive of the pursuit of dollars. Basketball fits perfectly with that. Going to the Patriot League orients football that way albeit a questionable (maybe evolving) one in terms of athletic competition.
I went back and watched the May interview of John OConner by the NDSU play by play guy. He confirmed everything in this post. He also noted that the NIL pool of money for Richmond was finite and the school chose to emphasize basketball.
JOC also said that he thought the CAA will probably dissolve in the near future and that UR wanted to get ahead of that.
I still think there is a lot of institutional snobbery towards Hampton and NC A&T and Campbell. Some of that snobbery may be rooted in latent racism against HBCSUs. There is no room for snobbery unless you can beat these schools on the field.
From a fan's perspective, why now? Why make the sudden move out of the CAA now? It would have been better for the school to wait and see whether the other schools will be able to improve their football programs. But, the new president wanted to "change things".
Oh and by the way, the "watered down" CAA schedule helped UR make the playoffs last year and it may help us make the playoffs again this year.
I would agree with the idea that UR was trying to get ahead of this CAA issue (which may or may not exist) and therefore decided to move conferences ahead of everyone else IF, we moved to a comparable 1AA football conference, or moved with a group of other teams - say UR, Villanova, and W&M all decided to leave at same time.
But as it stands now - we are the only team leaving the CAA, to a massive drop off in conference with the Patriot league - assuming the Patriot league doesn't expand their football conference. I mean, the Patriot league only has 7 teams today, did we really think spots would be taken up if we waited 6 months or till the end of this season and see what everyone else does.
I mean - looking at the top 25 FCS rankings right now, you have about 7 CAA teams listed in rankings or receiving votes. So its hard for me to imagine the CAA just plummets to the bottom or even below the Patriot league in terms of league strength right away. Maybe its a slow fall, with a team or two leaving here and there. But given its 1AA football, and given the condition as it stands today is fine - I don't get the rush to make the move out of CAA at this time. Might have been better to wait and see at the end of this season or next?
The CAA is still stocked with very good teams- W&M, NOVA, Stony Brook, Elon, Towson, Albany, Maine, New Hampshire, and Rhode Island.
With Billy Cosh at the helm, Stony Brook is an up and coming team. Towson has played the toughest schedule in FCS.
W&M is poised for success this season.
With Billy Cosh at the helm, Stony Brook is an up and coming team. Towson has played the toughest schedule in FCS.
W&M is poised for success this season.
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Richmond acted like a petulant child, who didn't have things go its way. UR effectively decided to take its game and stomp off to another playground. Meanwhile, the other teams in the league have gotten down to work and are headed towards a deep FCS run.
The rest of the CAA had a collective shrug, when Richmond announced its meaningless protest vote.
Big whoop.
The rest of the CAA had a collective shrug, when Richmond announced its meaningless protest vote.
Big whoop.
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