Exactly. Think about the climate advantage we will have at the end of October when our weather is perfect and the other teams have been playing in cold weather for weeks.
Do you approve of the move to the Patriot League?
- Thread starter Ferrum Spider
- Start date
Will take time to tell if this is a wise move. If Nova comes over, would feel a lot better about it. At least, Spiders are leaving a league with a downward trajectory for one on the rise, particularly with our addition. Let's make it work.
Below is a post from a UNH fan from Any Given Saturday that might explain what was going on. I am guessing this is the big stink of the whole situation, but of course I am not in the know, so just take it as information.
The two threads on that site UR move are both getting a lot of post. If nothing else the biggest FCS junkies in the world know we are moving.
CAA-F was created to look like a stand alone entity like the MVFC. However, there were two important differences: Unlike the MVFC, CAA and CAA-F shared the same Commissioner AND while charter CAA-F members, full sport and Football only, got a vote on admitting new CAA-F members, the Charter allowed for existing full sport CAA members the right to opt into CAA-F with no voting from CAA-F. So in the case of Monmouth, NC A&T, Hampton and Campbell they were all first voted into the CAA by the full sport members (many of which had no football), and immediately opted into CAA-F with no voting required. So Richmond, Villanova, UNH, Maine, URI and Albany had absolutely no say in the matter. I believe when Monmouth was essentially selected to replace JMU as the the 12th CAA-F member there is a very good chance the football only CAA-F members would have OKed it, had they been able to vote. After that, I doubt they were happy about 3 more teams from VA and NC joining in quick succession.
So that leaves me with the same question you may have - why didn't Delaware and W&M, the two most prominent full sport members, stop this from happening. Apparently Delaware didn't care as they had one foot out the door or maybe their AD was too distracted by campaigning for FCS AD of the year. Perhaps W&M was greatly outnumbered by other CAA members focused on Basketball who didn't have a football team.
PL is currently the best option, so I approve. Other than VMI, possibly Citadel & Furman (old history) not sure we have a great mix of schools to create fan interest/rivalries. Most of SoCon won’t move UR’s needle. Samford somewhere in Alabama ? WCU - Cullawhee, NC ? Our attendance can’t suffer much more than it has, the past 6-8 years. Just keep W&M on schedule & Nova come on down !
There actually can be a small advantage in those early September games. I remember years ago opening conference play at home against UMASS on a typical humid early September Richmond afternoon. Minutemen were hurting by the 3rd quarter.
I wonder if:
Top half of SoCon will become a revolving door? While Wofford, Furman, The Citadel, WCU might stay.
Will UTC, Sanford, Mercer move up if continued success?
The PL has 7 of 8, or 8 of 9 schools use all 63 scholarships, redshirts become permanent, and Nova joins soon, will it continue to improve?
Will W&M be one the new CAA Flagship in all sports?
Top half of SoCon will become a revolving door? While Wofford, Furman, The Citadel, WCU might stay.
Will UTC, Sanford, Mercer move up if continued success?
The PL has 7 of 8, or 8 of 9 schools use all 63 scholarships, redshirts become permanent, and Nova joins soon, will it continue to improve?
Will W&M be one the new CAA Flagship in all sports?
Think about practice and the rest of the school year. You're trying to attract the best athletes to your campus. Game day is 5 or 6 days out of the year. You're selling the school and football when you recruit. Don't think so narrowly.
Richmond weather is superior to every Patriot League team's weather for 10 months of the year. I would take a Finger Lakes summer over a Richmond summer.
Southern school in a northern conference was supposed pay great dividends for our baseball team in the A-10, but once our CAA recruits cycled through in those first couple of years, it was a steep decline to a middle-of-the-pack program.
(Yes, I know there are other factors at play, but that's kinda the point...geography is only one tiny piece of the puzzle, if it has any measurable impact at all.)
(Yes, I know there are other factors at play, but that's kinda the point...geography is only one tiny piece of the puzzle, if it has any measurable impact at all.)
As you infer, I think coaching and the level of program support had more to do with it than changing leagues.
True - time will tell what the trajectory is for PL and CAA. Am not a fan of the teams CAA has brought in vs who we have lost. The league is weaker than say 3 or 4 years ago. The teams added vs teams lost (JMU and Del) don’t balance. On the other hand this past season and most seasons the CAA is a multi bid league, and the PL is a one bid league. Time will tell if the move hurts us as say…conf runner up. Until the possibility of Nova coming on board upgrading the PL beyond just us and / or the PL regularly obtaining more than one bid, I’m not sold. Granted, we don’t know how the CAA fares in the future, but that is in rear view mirror. Several years from now we will be able to determine if this was a good or bad move. Right now, I’ll continue to go to all home games but am suspect of the PL and admin decision making for this move.
My initial reaction to the move was very underwhelming but with some reflection I'm in the "time will tell" group. If Villanova joins us in the PL then this will have been a good move, if the Tribe join then it's probably a great move. I think those of us who were around when President Cooper tried to downgrade the football program years ago have some PTSD associated with the words Patriot League but the CAA is a much weaker conference today than 20 years ago. IF Nova and W&M join the PL then we may have left a soon to be 1 bid league for a potential 2-3 bid league. And honestly there aren't many multiple bid leagues left in FCS. These are times of survival. Hopefully we look back on this as a good move.
Fire strengthens steel. The better competition you play, the stronger you will be. Richmond will loose talent and will rarely see the playoffs.
I was thinking it is the powerful Maine, NC A&T and Stony Brook programs. They did go a combined 3-29 last year so the fire can't possibly be hotter than those juggernauts.
Hot Mic Interview: John O'Connor discusses Richmond's move from the CAA to the Patriot League
John O'Connor joins Hot Mic with Dom Izzo on May 16th, 2024 to talk about Richmond's move
www.inforum.com
A few rambling thoughts not meant to inflame the fan base but I am sure some will perceive it as such.
I am genuinely shocked at the level apathy, acceptance and even enthusiasm by some of the fans (many of whom I respect) moving to the PL, who have lost their lunch over a hastily thought out administrative decisions in the past (Rocco, Dropping Soccer, PL move 1.0) cheer this move. I feel like were looking at this move through rose colored glasses only, desperate to do anything at the changing landscape of college athletics. Most non UR people I know that spoke to me about it think we're insane.
I get we all hate the CAA and not suggesting it wasn't time to leave but there were and are other options that would of benefitted this program. The fact that we only had only 35 fans even vote on this website shows the sad state of the support of this program that within the past 15 years would draw 20k crowds and now cant even put 2k fans in the stands for a game is depressing.
Joining this league is not going to grow the fan base nor attract top notch FCS football talent, it just gives us a convenient landing spot to play on average historically worse programs that we have a ton in common academically with which is something we wailed against for basketball but all of a sudden are fine with in football? A rising tide lifts all boats, and we decided to float in low tide with a nice yacht hoping itll be able to sail smoothly. Just look at some of the players response on social media and tell me you think were going to attract the same level of talent with a straight face.
If you thought crowds were bad before, just wait. Its laughable to think that the students of today, who cant even be bothered to walk across campus when we had JMU, Delaware, WM come to campus to all of a sudden think as alums they're going to go to a Holy Cross-UR game in Worchester.
When we almost left back in 2005, there was enough support to prevent what would of been a catastrophic move for our football program. Less than 3 years later we were a national champion. Show of hands who thinks that we have taken a step towards being that relevant with the same move 20 years later?
Im not going to be all doom and gloom. I do admit something needed to be done, and over time there is potential for this not to be as bad as a move on paper as it seems. There are a couple of nice perks like no longer dealing with Flo and a consistent schedule each year. But it seems that were selling a lot of hope that Villanova (Where there is no smoke currently that they're joining) and that WM will continue the series (Quick search already shows in 25/27 they already have a full non conference slate and WM was quite petty over our departure in 2000 from the CAA refusing to schedule us in hoops (Not nearly as big a deal since we don't need that game). It seems to me that we are trying to force their hand and hope for the best while thinking in the mean time we found ourselves a landing spot. If that's the case I have 0 faith in our administration in reading the room there.
The move makes sense in some areas one could argue, but its quite a ways away from being a slam dunk, and certainly not something that will provide a boost in incoming talent.
I am genuinely shocked at the level apathy, acceptance and even enthusiasm by some of the fans (many of whom I respect) moving to the PL, who have lost their lunch over a hastily thought out administrative decisions in the past (Rocco, Dropping Soccer, PL move 1.0) cheer this move. I feel like were looking at this move through rose colored glasses only, desperate to do anything at the changing landscape of college athletics. Most non UR people I know that spoke to me about it think we're insane.
I get we all hate the CAA and not suggesting it wasn't time to leave but there were and are other options that would of benefitted this program. The fact that we only had only 35 fans even vote on this website shows the sad state of the support of this program that within the past 15 years would draw 20k crowds and now cant even put 2k fans in the stands for a game is depressing.
Joining this league is not going to grow the fan base nor attract top notch FCS football talent, it just gives us a convenient landing spot to play on average historically worse programs that we have a ton in common academically with which is something we wailed against for basketball but all of a sudden are fine with in football? A rising tide lifts all boats, and we decided to float in low tide with a nice yacht hoping itll be able to sail smoothly. Just look at some of the players response on social media and tell me you think were going to attract the same level of talent with a straight face.
If you thought crowds were bad before, just wait. Its laughable to think that the students of today, who cant even be bothered to walk across campus when we had JMU, Delaware, WM come to campus to all of a sudden think as alums they're going to go to a Holy Cross-UR game in Worchester.
When we almost left back in 2005, there was enough support to prevent what would of been a catastrophic move for our football program. Less than 3 years later we were a national champion. Show of hands who thinks that we have taken a step towards being that relevant with the same move 20 years later?
Im not going to be all doom and gloom. I do admit something needed to be done, and over time there is potential for this not to be as bad as a move on paper as it seems. There are a couple of nice perks like no longer dealing with Flo and a consistent schedule each year. But it seems that were selling a lot of hope that Villanova (Where there is no smoke currently that they're joining) and that WM will continue the series (Quick search already shows in 25/27 they already have a full non conference slate and WM was quite petty over our departure in 2000 from the CAA refusing to schedule us in hoops (Not nearly as big a deal since we don't need that game). It seems to me that we are trying to force their hand and hope for the best while thinking in the mean time we found ourselves a landing spot. If that's the case I have 0 faith in our administration in reading the room there.
The move makes sense in some areas one could argue, but its quite a ways away from being a slam dunk, and certainly not something that will provide a boost in incoming talent.
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From the 716, suburban Buffalo.
Ferrum: You post is well thought-out and articulated. But this is not 2005, and the CAA we are leaving in no way, shape or form resembles the CAA of 2005.
I believe (given the current upheaval in college football) this move was the best for our program in the long run, providing long-term league stability from a competitive, membership and financial standpoint. I guess we'll see.
PS: We have been committed to playing basketball at the highest level for as long as we've had athletics. By moving to FCS in the 1980s (another smart move, IMHO) were openly acknowledged we would not be competing on the highest level. So comparing the two sports is apples to oranges, IMHO.
I realize other's mileage will vary.
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What would this board be saying if Villanova and W&M had announced that they were leaving for the PL or one of them? It's an honest question.
My question is, Do you think it is as big a step down as it would have been 20 years ago?
I think that is the reason for mixed reactions. I have always wanted this move to work, but have also always been very skeptical of it.
Id of accepted it much more easily and I hope they do now that we made it. What's done is done. I want what's best for this program even if it proves others I don't agree with correct. Were in a tough spot being a non voting member of this conference as we watched it drop in quality. I understand the desire to leave it and have some say over the makeup of your opponents. It would of essentially killed off the CAA and make it easier for PL to recruit.
I'm not against leaving the CAA as I said. I just think we jumped the gun and the admin took advantage of the regular fans disgust with the state of the CAA and used it as an excuse to go the PL rather than have a public discourse over it since our administration has the social skills of a wasp.
I don't trust this was the wisest move, certainly in the short term, and likely the long term if the Patriot League as a whole doesn't elevate its game as a league and no one else joins. Outside the platitude of hope, it sounds like we made our move and hope we can shoehorn two other programs to capitulate to this brand of football when all of us have had much success previously against every type of school out there at the FCS level. You don't think Mike London and Novas coach are already recruiting against us right now talking about the quality of the two conferences? Its an honest question.
No, but its a step down without bringing the others along. Will gladly breathe a sigh of relief but not overly thrilled. Its not so much the big step down so much as an acknowledgement that we are no aiming to compete at the highest level respective to the classification we play in. No one is going to mistake the PL for a top tier league any season.
I think were looking at it as we had to either stay in the CAA or go to the Patriot League, but I would of like to have seen more options explored before going this alone.
I get that's not easy to do, but this move alone tells me that we are not at all on the same page with Villanova and WM with regards to what we want to do with our football program/conference affiliation.
The reality is that the only thing that would have made me genuinely excited was if we announced we were ripping out the track, expanding to 30k seats and joining AAC, CUSA or even the Sun Belt. I would have never thought that 20 years ago but things change. The CAA is a disaster. There is not a single FCS conference I’d be excited about.
How about Spiders to MVFC?
Nightmare travel, but excellent football!
Nightmare travel, but excellent football!
Ferrum, I certainly share a lot of the sentiment you expressed. However, I am not in the camp of getting out the pitchforks in this situation and I'll explain my rational below:
First, I want to say that I too have the mentality that we should aspire to compete in the best conference for our sports and not care about the image of the school's we play, as long as its the best competition. Athletics can absolutely bolster a school's academic profile and if Richmond wants to improve its national brand recognition, there is no single-faster way to do it than through sports. Seems to work for Duke, Wake Forest, Stanford, Northwestern, Notre Dame, Vanderbilt, Villanova, Georgetown, Davidson, and even Ivy League schools in some of their sports (tennis, lacrosse, etc). Believe it or not, I actually think Richmond recognizes it, but are not as vocal about it or even show it in the most direct ways. The reality is we are not Alabama. We do not have infinite money to throw at athletics. That means we have to be judicious in the way we spend and be mindful of where to devote our energy and resources when it comes to athletics at UR. It is evidently clear that the flagship sport at our university is basketball and membership at the Atlantic 10 conference. Being consistently in the top 25 in basketball or a final four run will do 100x more for our recognition than a football FCS championship. Alumni, fans, and the university all know this. That's why we've built a $15 million basketball practice facility, fly chartered flights to our games, and have the one of the best attendance in the country for a school our size. If there is only so much money we realistically can work with, I think most of us would support in making our basketball the best it can be. We're seeing results of that. 2021 A10 tourney champs, 2024 A10 regular season champs, and a very competitive NIL (JOC said in an interview we have about $500K/year). To the best of my knowledge, this is the first year we have ever gotten a consensus top 100 recruit in the country for men's basketball.
We have seen so many schools in the country chase their pipe dream of football at the detriment of all their other sports. I am sure we would all be getting out the pitch forks if we left the A10 conference for basketball to go be in the MAC for football. And you might point out that we aren't talking about being the best in all of football (FBS) but being the best in the FCS. Yes, which is why this move won't have as much of an impact as some may think. The way I see it, here's the best football conferences in the country.
Tiers:
1a. SEC, Big 10
1b. ACC, Big 12
2. G5 conferences
3. MVFC, Big Sky
4a. CAA w/o UR
4b. SoCon
4c. Patriot League w/ UR in it
Richmond's decision to leave the CAA, didn't come out of the blue. They left after the CAA diluted the conference with teams that add nothing for football and was being poorly managed by the commissioner. While I have no idea what the administration's true intentions are with the move to the Patriot League, I don't personally think it was entirely to de-emphasize football and be with peer institutions. If that was the case, we would've done so 10 years ago when the CAA was at its peak. Instead, they probably felt that the CAA now is not what they signed up for when we first joined. Of course, the other academic institutions of the Patriot League was seen as a plus by the administration. Additionally, UR probably thought to themselves that people aren't really going to the football games when we play Monmouth and Campbell at the CAA, it likely won't be any worse when we play Colgate or Holy Cross. They also thought and said that the difference in quality between being in the 4a tier conference vs. the 4b or 4c is not enough where the cost that goes into football is worth it at the expense of all our other sports. So if we can save money, likely garner the same fan interest, play more academically similar institutions, and be in a less diluted/more stable conference that is slightly less in competitiveness (for now), it was likely thought of as a good decision.
Yes, the CAA is still objectively better than the Patriot League in football right now, but for how long can we say that? Whether we will look back at this as a good move or not, time will tell. However, if Villanova joins and William & Mary join (or at least we still play every year) then there are teams like UR, Villanova, W&M, Lafayette, Holy Cross, & Colgate who can all be in the top 25 at any given time. Again, I have no idea whether this will be the case, but if I'm Villanova or Willam & Mary the prospect of this should garner a lot more interest than playing in a 15 team CAA conference with teams like Bryant or Maine. I did not like the timing of us leaving either and would have rather left after the CAA implodes because the Patriot League would have taken us at any time for football and it gives us a few more years competing in a better conference. I would have also liked to have gone with other schools simultaneously. However, UR may have been more proactive in this manner and other teams will follow suit.
At the end, it is a bummer. I want UR to be the best at everything. But I also have expectations recognizing that UR is not going to change its identity and be something it's not. This isn't 1970 anymore. UR is not playing the likes of Virginia Tech or WVU on a consistent basis. However, we can still compete and do well in FCS. Holy Cross was an 8 seed in the 2022 bracket. If we dedicate the same resources as we do now, and schedule well OOC, we can poise ourselves to be getting seeds in NCAA tournament and making deep runs. Winning conference championships and hosting NCAA tournament games will also do well with our recruiting pitch. We may fall flat with this move or it may turn out to be an excellent move, but I remain hopeful either way.
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Or even 1982…
1982 Richmond Spiders Schedule and Results | College Football at Sports-Reference.com
1982 Richmond Spiders Schedule and Results
www.sports-reference.com
1983 Richmond Spiders Schedule and Results | College Football at Sports-Reference.com
1983 Richmond Spiders Schedule and Results
www.sports-reference.com
Being realistic, neither Villanova nor W&M will jump to the Patriot. Why should they, the Patriot is a terrible football conference. Both have better chances for a national championship in the CAA. In 5 years, each of you will bemoan the fact that we are sitting at home, while the Patriot league winner has exited the first round of the playoffs. We will never sniff a top 15 ranking again.
The competition isn't the issue, the CAA got 4 teams in the FCS last year. The CAA is the second or 3rd best league in the country. From here on, Russ Huesman will be our best coach in the Patriot league era.
The UR administration views the CAA expansion schools as inferior schools. President Hallock sees UR as upper crust and superior. This has nothing to do with competition on the field. It is institutional snobbery, born of a latent racism directed at these lower tiered schools. My attitude is that if we can't beat them consistently on the field, then we have no reason to be snobs towards them off the field.
2 of those 4 teams (us and Delaware) won't be there in 2025.
You might be right on whether Villanova or W&M decide not to go the Patriot League. However, I doubt they stay at the CAA much longer. If/when they leave the CAA, then the CAA will become a 1-2 bid conference. I am sure that the Patriot League is under some consideration for them, whether they choose to go that route or not. W&M has more to think about as it would be an all sports move rather than just football like Villanova and us. Lets say we were all in the Patriot League right now. There would be 4 Patriot League teams in the top 25 in the FCS preseason rankings (Villanova #6, Richmond #13, W&M #17, Lafayette #20). Not to mention teams like Fordham, Holy Cross, and Colgate who have been ranked in recent years. The prospect of that is pretty enticing, especially considering the Patriot League is removing a lot of its self-imposed restrictions and is a more stable league.
Latent racism? From a school that worships at the alter of DEI?
Correct me if I’m wrong, but hasn’t the Patriot League slowly allowed
it’s members to grow their programs to scholarship levels of all
FCS conferences? Haven’t some of their teams played a lot of CAA
teams and won?
Maybe we’re looking at this all wrong. Maybe the Patriot League wants to move up, and they consider adding us as a step in the right direction.
Could they have offered us a concession to join their conference.?
I haven’t seen anyone put this thought out there. Is it a possibility?
Just a random thought.
it’s members to grow their programs to scholarship levels of all
FCS conferences? Haven’t some of their teams played a lot of CAA
teams and won?
Maybe we’re looking at this all wrong. Maybe the Patriot League wants to move up, and they consider adding us as a step in the right direction.
Could they have offered us a concession to join their conference.?
I haven’t seen anyone put this thought out there. Is it a possibility?
Just a random thought.
It's also about the money. The NIL requirements for competitive football teams will be astronomical. Not so much for the Patriot League. But if we get any good football player expect them to be poached by a better FCS program, like one in the CAA.
Hallock is a snob. He thinks we are better than the CAA, but I don't see why. We can't win consistently against CAA competition.
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