College of Charleston Game Thread 11/14/2022
- Thread starter CH_Spider
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Did not see the play, but they changed the rules- There are no longer any warnings for flops. They either call the flop or not. If they call it, it is a technical and one shot is awarded. My guess is that since there is no longer a warning, thus no gray area, they have tightened up the call. Seen a bunch in games so far this year with flop type situations, that would have rated a warning last year, but they were no calls. Players are going to have to adapt, especially the ones who seem to love the old "head-bob".
From the NCAA press release when the change was approved:
"When evaluating potential flopping situations, officials will be asked to judge whether the player's physical reaction to the contact with another player is consistent with what would have been expected, given the force of the contact. When the reaction is not consistent, the player is most likely exaggerating the nature of the contact in an attempt to gain an advantage, and flopping has occurred."
Quick observations.
1) Refs - yes, they were terrible. I didn't like the 3 point foul at the end, but you can't put yourself in the position to even remotely give the ref a chance to make that call. So part of that is on Goose, but also part of that is on UR falling behind 20 also puts us in that position as well.
2) Comeback - glad to see the guys didn't quit and were able to comeback. That is encouraging to see and should provide them confidence in the future when they get down. They should remember this and remember - they have the ability to come back on big leads.
3) Bigelow - might be time to move him into starting lineup and move Quinn to the bench. This was my starting line prediction at the beginning of the season. And so far through 3 games - Quinn is not giving us much and I think Bigelow is bringing toughness, rebounds, and scoring at times. I could see a switch coming soon if he keeps playing like that.
4) Nelson - played better in the 2nd half, but I think this is likely the expectation for him. Yes - he practiced last year with Gilyard. But game experience, and playing 41 minutes in a close road game is a lot different than practice in the Robins Center. He is going to have very good games like UNI, then down games or halves like Charleston. I think he will be up and down most of the year, and the hope should be by A10 play or middle of A10 play - we get him playing more up than down.
5) Roche - He is a catch and shoot guy, nothing else. He will likely shoot a good percentage by year end - probably around 35-38%. But he will have games where he goes 4-6, then games where he goes 0-4 or 1-4. Play him - let him get 2-3 shots off, if not falling - get him out. If he is making them - ride the hot hand.
6) Depth - Tonight was a good example. We think we have depth, but really - we don't. Tight game, on the road - need the win. We played 7 guys. I thought we could have used Bailey more, and I like Randolph coming in when the team is playing bad - he brings some energy to the court as well. But at the end of the day - yes, Smith killed us from deep. But really - we got 18 points from our bench (15 from Bigelow) - they got 36. And we can't expect Burton to score 35+ each night.
Good game. Good experience on the road with bad refs and tough crowd. Need to bounce back and win next one vs. Wichita St. before big game with Syracuse. We will need to shoot well vs. Syracuse - so we will need all shooters - Roche, Bigelow, Grace hitting shots to backup Burton.
1) Refs - yes, they were terrible. I didn't like the 3 point foul at the end, but you can't put yourself in the position to even remotely give the ref a chance to make that call. So part of that is on Goose, but also part of that is on UR falling behind 20 also puts us in that position as well.
2) Comeback - glad to see the guys didn't quit and were able to comeback. That is encouraging to see and should provide them confidence in the future when they get down. They should remember this and remember - they have the ability to come back on big leads.
3) Bigelow - might be time to move him into starting lineup and move Quinn to the bench. This was my starting line prediction at the beginning of the season. And so far through 3 games - Quinn is not giving us much and I think Bigelow is bringing toughness, rebounds, and scoring at times. I could see a switch coming soon if he keeps playing like that.
4) Nelson - played better in the 2nd half, but I think this is likely the expectation for him. Yes - he practiced last year with Gilyard. But game experience, and playing 41 minutes in a close road game is a lot different than practice in the Robins Center. He is going to have very good games like UNI, then down games or halves like Charleston. I think he will be up and down most of the year, and the hope should be by A10 play or middle of A10 play - we get him playing more up than down.
5) Roche - He is a catch and shoot guy, nothing else. He will likely shoot a good percentage by year end - probably around 35-38%. But he will have games where he goes 4-6, then games where he goes 0-4 or 1-4. Play him - let him get 2-3 shots off, if not falling - get him out. If he is making them - ride the hot hand.
6) Depth - Tonight was a good example. We think we have depth, but really - we don't. Tight game, on the road - need the win. We played 7 guys. I thought we could have used Bailey more, and I like Randolph coming in when the team is playing bad - he brings some energy to the court as well. But at the end of the day - yes, Smith killed us from deep. But really - we got 18 points from our bench (15 from Bigelow) - they got 36. And we can't expect Burton to score 35+ each night.
Good game. Good experience on the road with bad refs and tough crowd. Need to bounce back and win next one vs. Wichita St. before big game with Syracuse. We will need to shoot well vs. Syracuse - so we will need all shooters - Roche, Bigelow, Grace hitting shots to backup Burton.
Know the rule has changed. That said the new rule should be applied consistently to both teams. The Charleston color commentator said he understood why the Richmond bench was upset after the no call when the Charleston player flopped after minimal contact with Burton.
I didn't get to see the game so really can't make any specific observations. What I will say is that we have a new team that hasn't played together. Coming down from 20 on the road says a lot to me. I think this team showed some heart. Also, the end of game and OT when we got up were also predictable Mooney coached teams choke jobs. Fouling a 3 point shoot when up 3, turnovers in OT and unable to get the stop when they needed it.
And the thing with these "rule changes" or really just emphasizing the rule in place - in the past years refs have done this for a few weeks, and then slowly revert. Expect to stop seeing this in four weeks, but sounds like we got burned by it being applied situationally and not at end of game.
Well, my point is, I think with the change the ref has less gray area to play with. With the old warning, they could call a close play and just give the warning. Now, if you call it, you have to be sure.
You are correct, you weren’t there. It wasn’t as cut and dry as that. We expended so much energy in the comeback that we just didn’t have it in the end . Still should have won!
Only another year or so until he's old enough to get his driver's license and they won't have to drive him everywhere anymore.
Agree - we need to beat Wichita first though. Need to go up there at 3-1 and if we can go 1-1 up there and come back to a tough road game with Toledo at 4-2 - we are in good shape.
Grace will be key - we need him healthy and hope his injury is not serious.
What does everyone think about our transition D?...I thought it was bad in the 1st half after going back and watching the replay. Haven't watched 2nd yet
So, we both agree that we shouldn't be fouling 3 point shooters in end of game situations. I'm not sure what that has to do with energy, that is just playing smart or in this case not smart basketball. Also, it was a 5th year senior making that foul.
I saw the foul - it was not a foul. But give credit to the shooter, flopping like that draws the attention of the ref and forced a call or no call to be made.
Bad call ? Yes - terrible call.
Bad defense - Yes.
Bad situation - we were down 20 and fighting back - yes.
Bad call ? Yes - terrible call.
Bad defense - Yes.
Bad situation - we were down 20 and fighting back - yes.
8legs1dream
Team Manager
just a warning, I'm going to be watching real closely to make sure nobody likes this post!
? I can't read sarcasm. So, did you legit not like the post? Again, I didn't see the game, so that should be a huge caveat, so perhaps it was a really bad call, certainly our radio broadcast didn't indicate that it was though.
One can "imagine" the "theory" was with a 3 point lead and time winding down to foul a shooter who had already made 8 three pointers BEFORE he had the opportunity to shoot and send him to the line for 2 shots. Did not play out that way as the contact in the eyes of the ref was made while in the act of shooting; looked like Goose's hand(s) hit Reyne's hands as or slightly after the ball was released...............which usually results in a foul being called........................
Quinn = wayyyy soft. This was a bad matchup, but nevertheless...
Burton played a great game. 2 or 3 airballs but still 4 of 8 from 3 so on the plus side there for sure.
Goose is playing himself out of a starting job. This was a MAJOR opportunity for Dji to provide just a little offense and - only listening to the game - a complete failure. Look for Dji in the doghouse! and maybe more Randolph and Roche.
Roche, bad matchup here too but our options are limited.
We're not going to have but a few more of these awesome performances from Burton... we need others to find a way to score the ball. More pressing obviously but that won't have the same effect on very many other teams we play like it did on Charleston.
On a very positive game note free throw shooting of 93% is great. Burton, Bigelow, and Grace were a combined 20-20 (8-8,6-6,4-4)...............Bring that every game!
Agree - Goose did not have a great game. But once again, where is our depth? Roche didn't show anything behind him, DJI didn't play well or get an opportunity and same with Randolph. Maybe when Crabtree comes back? But again - I think Goose continues to play because Mooney knows what he can do, and so far - no one behind him has been able to take his minutes.
We actually shot 85% FT...still solid. Goose 1-for-2 that would have put us up 6 in OT hurt though.
Didn’t watch the game and was only able to catch the last few minutes and OT on the radio. The most surprising thing to me was Burton’s post game interview. He was much happier about the game than I thought a player who put so much into a game and still lost would be. Expected the Mooney canned response, but not Burton’s.
I am sure Burton is upset. But also remember too - Burton is playing for an NBA contract this year as well. So yeah - he is not going to be too upset with a 38 point performance. This game will be a main part of his highlight reel for pro scouts.
Oh man............I misread the box score.............picking second half free throw percentage instead of total game percentage ...can count on you SF for attention to detail ...glad we pull for the same team!
Both teams shot exactly 44.4% from the field. Odd. I'll take 23-27 from the FT for us every day of the week. FT shooting is not what lost us the game yesterday, that's for sure.
The team has depth, but Mooney doesn’t want to use it NOR develop it. Yes you need to pull a player when he makes a mistake, but players have to be put into games to make corrections and to get game experience. A game like this is exactly when you should be putting players into games with pressure situations to get them to grow. Instead, he coaches like this was an elimination game.
Also, in the record prediction thread, many people thought this would be a tough game for the Spiders. It was and the Spiders lost. No big surprise. Still have plenty of season left and hopefully room to grow. Go Spiders!
8legs1dream
Team Manager
apologies 97! I was calling out another user who acts as the "like police" around here if he doesn't approve of who like which posts!
Yes, hopefully the team is more locked in on Wichita than I am.
Yep, good points - Goose is generally solid, and no doubt huge impact in winning last year. I did not see last night, but prior games he has not looked super on O or D imo. But other guys have not stepped up consistently. Have seen some really good things from Randolph, from Dji and from Roche, but then slipping up. We have some good options, just going to need a couple of those guys to step it up and grab the minutes.
That is the million dollar question Native. Is it we don't have depth and therefore Mooney sticks with who he thinks is best at the moment? Or - do we have depth and Mooney is just not using it? Or not using it properly or developing it?
I think development has always been an issue. And when I see Bailey play only 6 minutes in a tight OT game, I get nervous because that to me means - he is likely not going to play much, and therefore will not develop much at all this year if he continues to play 6-8 minutes a night.
It has been and continues to be my opinion that Goose starting and playing major starter minutes is not a recipe for a team with legit NCAA aspirations. His offensive game is just too limited and while a really good defender, he isn't Tony Dobbins level, that to me he would need to be to justify him being our starter at the 2.
That said, I do agree with Trap, that until a players comes up and seizes the starting position from him, he will remain our starter. Mooney will need overwhelming evidence to make a switch. To date, neither Dji or Roche has provided him that.
That said, I do agree with Trap, that until a players comes up and seizes the starting position from him, he will remain our starter. Mooney will need overwhelming evidence to make a switch. To date, neither Dji or Roche has provided him that.
It's game 3 with a bunch of new guys out there this year. This game won't make or break our season. These guys need to stay positive and confident, and it starts with Tyler as the leader. I didn't hear the interview, but I am glad to hear he was positive. I doubt happy is the right word here. Tyler always wants to win, and was upset and bothered a ton in post game interviews by some losses last year, so I will never worry about him not being upset with a loss. But, he gets it. He knows this team is still coming together and knows they need to stay positive and confident. A long way to go this year.
Conference game later on in the year, I would expect a different reaction, but right now, while the guys are figuring everything out, stay positive. And, as bad as the start was last night, there were a lot of positives.
We were 23-27. Seems silly to pick and choose the worst FT totals and say that doesn't help. You could do that with every stat out there if you want.
We played 9 guys last night. That is plenty. The best guys play. Did you really want a bunch of different guys in there in the 2nd half when the guys in there were clicking and going on such a great run? It is unfair to everyone out there if you don't play the guys who give you the best chance to win. Mooney needs to coach to win. Period. Nelson had 0 game experience last year, and seems to be just fine out there. This need to play more guys and develop them talk is so overrated.
Dji has seen the floor in 28 games now, and has played 228 minutes. What more do you want as far as "developing" a guy is concerned? He had 3 turnovers in 6 minutes last night. We can't have that. Did you really want him out there the last 10 minutes of the game last night?
We have this "need more development" debate every year, and it gets destroyed with example after example of guys who went from not playing much one year to playing well and being key factors the next. Coaches coach to win. They aren't out there playing guys who don't give them the best chance to win so they can "develop" them. What coaches of winning programs do that? You guys really want Mooney to be the exception and play guys who don't give you the best chance to win the game you are playing?
Not saying that there weren’t any “positives” from the game and I suppose one could say it was “refreshing” to hear a player staying positive; however, it struck me differently. Suppose you would have to listen to it to judge….
My point is NOW is the time for TEAM development and Mooney is coaching like the Spiders are in a tournament. A player needs to be pulled, coached, and put back in the game in order to develop to me. Mooney doesn’t have a bunch of all-time great super seniors to rely on this year, but is still coaching with a “tight rotation”. Sure 9 players played, but one fouled out and the minute distribution was lots different than the other 2 games this season.
Are you talking Spiders here? Please elaborate.
