Coaching incompetence

[spider23]

Last year was 1 OUT OF 4 season. 1) OOC - Awful. Every inflection point, when we had a chance to make a name, fell on our face. 2) Conference Regular Season - Very Good. Only caveat was last game, some on this board saw the let down coming a mile away. other wise great team effort, and Moon did a good job. 3) A10 tourney - this is wher the JB's and Tarrant's and good to great coaches make their chops. Pull something out to get the team to play above their level. Moon went the other way. 4) NIT - Let down just continued. human nature, but moon again could not re-direct.

Trying to see how this was some awesome season ?????? And yes, I give coaches passes for down years. But in moon's case he used that crap up years ago b/c no he can't get to ncaa's enough. See how that works in real life sman??? You get their often, and you get a pass for bad season(s). Mooniocrity does not, so no pass given. Not really a hard concept , except the leafy campus crowd is OK with our rate.

 

[spiderman]

Trying to see how this was some awesome season ??????

don't think I said it was an awesome season. but clearly I enjoyed last season more than you.

I'm not focused on Mooney all day every day like some here are. I'm more about the team than the coach. Mooney just happens to coach the team now. last year's team busted their asses to a 15-3 confernce record. I appreciate that. that was successful.

if I only found enjoyment in 3 of 19 seasons, I don't think I could do it.

 

[spider23]

Oh boy, that is some high level mental gymnastics you play there sman. Moon has been the coach for 20 years and driven the program to mediocrity. But if the freshman are all great players, and the redshirts, and we can somehow get Dlo and King, and Bigs in the portal next year, I will be right there with you. I was happy most of the conference regular season last year, but the OOC left a terrible tast - especially the UNI turd, and I like many on here had no confidence moon could scheme up an a10 tourney run, so yes, I was happy for about 60% of season last year. It's all we have b/c moon is CFL.

 

[GKiller]

I obviously wasn't clear.
GK, you seem like you're black or white on good/bad year. have to make the dance for a good year. 3 for 19.

I'm in line with 97. there's much more to a good year. no, I don't think a run this season would make it a good season after the crap we've watched for 4 months. sweet 16 might sway me I guess, but even then it's just a great run in an awful season.

21-22 was sometimes frustrating but still won 24 games and a tournament game. that's a good year.
19-20 was a good year.
23-24 ... to me that was a good year. we were the #1 seed in the A10 tournament. we didn't dance. still a good year to me. I want a realistic chance in March. as a #1 seed we had that.
we don't have that this year.

No. I acknowledge I'm probably more black & white than some. Btw great song by Michael Jackson. He killed at the Super Bowl in 1993.

But no...19-20' was a very good year. Have always said that. Have also always said we deserved to be in. Tho we don't know and can't claim it. 1 reason I find Lunardi to be a douche, and us for hiring him just the same.

Those good seasons r way to few and far between. What I said was...when u r 3 for 19 it does become MORE black & white. a lot closer to it for sure.

Also the realistic stuff is not involved. I already knew we would win 5 in a row minimum and likely beat at 15 seed or better. You told me as much. So I knew the result. It was based off YOUR premise. Of course the odds are better as a 1 seed. But that had nothing to do with it. A great run can negate a lot. If we knew what would happen and u gave me the choice of last year's result and this year of winning a10 tourney and NCAA game, I'm taking the latter.

 

[8legs1dream]

Mooney just happens to coach the team now.

You could have said the same thing on May 6, 2005 and it would still be accurate 😂

 

[SpiderGuy]

You could have said the same thing on May 6, 2005 and it would still be accurate 😂

Success begets success. Those 3 NCAA appearances in 20 years and being dominated by VCU are trophies of ongoing achievement and rationalization. Stay onboard - more of the same to come.

 

[spiderstudent17]

who is making that argument? I think it was spiderman.

Moon gets more nuance than any coach in the country! so last year 100% gets more downgraded. When u r 3 for 19 NCAA u shouldn't get the benefit of the doubt. when u r 3 for 19 it does become more yes or no. stack some ncaas and get a pass. Mooney doesn't. Literally 90% of his metrics r underperforming for what our standards should be.

Also I just posted above that going by spiderman's premise, it would be a good year. 5 straight w NCAA win. Maybe even over 1 seed idk, tho I tend to think they would value us higher coming from A10 and being on a roll & we'd def avoid that 16 seed. But anyway, no we don't all agree. Hand raised.

so where's the line....if went to final 4 this season...it's still not successful? lol. your problem imo is u r making every game and every part of season equal. They r not. The OOC with big games, if we valued that higher, r much more important. Fact. The A10 tourney is obviously much more important. Fact. Last year we had no real chance at bid because we flubbed the OOC. Then we choked the end of year badly. The A10 reg season was very good. Unfortunately the two bigger parts of season were quite bad. I don't see equating to very good overall. In little ol' Richmond extension world it's great because we have such a narrow low bar view of things.

Likewise if we crushed & went to NCAA and won a game, it won't be a good year? I say it will, u don't. That's strange to me.

Look I want a consistent winning succesful program....that qualifies for more NCAAs...we are clearly far from it. That's why we need a coaching change. But given we are a lightning in a bottle program, if you offer me lightning in a bottle I'll jump on it. Because the good alternatives are few & far between. So have your choke in A10 to St Joes and get blown out in NIT that so many don't care about, and I guess you'll be happier. I'll take my A10 tourney title & NCAA win and all the fun and spoils that come w it....hypothetically of course.

I don't know if we ultimately agree on this or not, so let me know. But the way I see it, is that this season sucks. If we catch lightening in the bottle and win the A10 tournament and go make the NCAAs (which would be awesome) I would not say that this is a reason to ignore everything else that transpired. With that same line of thinking, I don't want to ignore that last year was a very good year for us, despite ending on a sour note.

I guess if we made it to the final four, I would feel different. This isn't an exact science and there is some element of subjectivity. That is exactly what I am saying is the case though. You keep mentioning the 3 out of 19 NCAA record and I am glad you acknowledge that you are more black and white in this regard than others. That's fair and you certainly can have that perspective, which I think many of us would agree with to a degree. However, other fans and notably UR administration probably operates more in the shades of gray and felt that many seasons we didn't make NCAAs were successful enough. I don't think this inherently means UR does not care about success of basketball. In fact, UR has through actions and words vocalized our commitment to high level basketball.

 

[spiderstudent17]

if I only found enjoyment in 3 of 19 seasons, I don't think I could do it

Agree and I think many people feel the same way as you and me. While throughout those 19 years we may not have performed as high as many of us hoped and aspire Richmond basketball to be, we’ve had a lot more than just those 3 seasons that brought us enjoyment.

 

[VegasSpider]

Agree and I think many people feel the same way as you and me. While throughout those 19 years we may not have performed as high as many of us hoped and aspire Richmond basketball to be, we’ve had a lot more than just those 3 seasons that brought us enjoyment.

I agree with all of this, yes.... but it's also hard for me to understand how we're not consistently better.

 

[MrTbone]

You can't on one hand make the argument that the only thing that matters for success is NCAA appearance and then on the other hand also say that if we were to make the NCAAs at a year like this, it still isn't successful. For me, that's why I have always claimed that there is more nuance to a successful season then having an NCAA appearance or not. I think we would all agree that even if by some miracle we won the A10 tournament this year, it won't be a good season overall. In my eyes, even with the disappointing end, last year was still a very good season for us.

The 21-22 is a tricky one. We certainly didn't perform up to expectations given who we had returning, but it wasn't abysmal similar to a year like this. So not only winning A10 tournament but also an NCAA game moved the needle in my eyes to an overall successful season. Certainly a subjective nature to it, but more realistic than a binary NCAA tournament: yes or no. In a world where teams from SEC will have 12-13 bids this year, it becomes even harder to do for non-P5s. So while NCAA appearances is obviously still a very important barometer of success, there are other factors as well.

If we went 12-21 every season but won the auto bid 50% of the time, I’d probably be happier than bugs bunny.

It would be perennially frustrating of course. But I’d take it. It’s of course statistically a near impossibility.

 

[GKiller]

Agree and I think many people feel the same way as you and me. While throughout those 19 years we may not have performed as high as many of us hoped and aspire Richmond basketball to be, we’ve had a lot more than just those 3 seasons that brought us enjoyment.

Straw man argument back

 

[GKiller]

I don't know if we ultimately agree on this or not, so let me know. But the way I see it, is that this season sucks. If we catch lightening in the bottle and win the A10 tournament and go make the NCAAs (which would be awesome) I would not say that this is a reason to ignore everything else that transpired. With that same line of thinking, I don't want to ignore that last year was a very good year for us, despite ending on a sour note.

I guess if we made it to the final four, I would feel different. This isn't an exact science and there is some element of subjectivity. That is exactly what I am saying is the case though. You keep mentioning the 3 out of 19 NCAA record and I am glad you acknowledge that you are more black and white in this regard than others. That's fair and you certainly can have that perspective, which I think many of us would agree with to a degree. However, other fans and notably UR administration probably operates more in the shades of gray and felt that many seasons we didn't make NCAAs were successful enough. I don't think this inherently means UR does not care about success of basketball. In fact, UR has through actions and words vocalized our commitment to high level basketball.

Oh I realize what the UR admin and some minority of fans think. It's why we're here in the first place. again Moon’s gotten all the nuance and shades of gray as humanly possible, or whatever term u want to use next. again what r his best metrics overall in 20 years?...I'm serious I'd love to know...guessing 1 is last year co-winning A10...of course surrounded by 2 losing seasons. but i dont call 1 season a metric anyway. for every good 1 u give me & there r not many...I can give u 4 bad ones at least. he's slid by on nuance & gray. enough nuance & gray…I’ve extended that to Moon in the past like most of us….we r tired of it that's the point. So I know what nuance is...& when we eval a prospective coach from a low level program u have to consider such nuance because there is less opportunity there.

I'm inclined to say we agree on a few things...but then u go and write..."I guess if we made it to the final four, I would feel different."....u guess? u r not sure it would even be a good season if we go to Final4....the Holy Grail of college hoops esp for a non major, a place we have never been close to. & that would be subjective? u have right to believe anything but just hard for me to take seriously when someone won't even concede that. News flash if we won 8 in a row to go to a final 4 it would be the best 3-4 week Spiders ride ever and the most successful season of Richmond all-time. so ultimately....we freaking disagree a lot.

 

[spider23]

I agree with all of this, yes.... but it's also hard for me to understand how we're not consistently better.

It's easy to understand. Mooney. He is not a top coach. Not terrible. Not great. Middling. If we just rolled the dice every 5 years likely would have a much better, and more motivated coach.

 

[AnnapSpider]

Don’t you guys get tired of being negative? It gets wearing just reading your comments.
I guess birds of a feather complain together..

 

[spider23]

Posting incompetence

 

[8legs]

My head is buzzing with all this complex analysis and math.
It’s simple: 20 years, 55%.

 

[8legs]

Analysis: 20 years - from excitement and great expectations to disappointment to mad to apathy and no expectations.

 

[MrTbone]

Don’t you guys get tired of being negative? It gets wearing just reading your comments.
I guess birds of a feather complain together..

You’re a bit too focused on the symptoms and not the problem.

There’s a group of folks here who want the program to get well, it’s ok to make noise about it.

 

[VegasSpider]

It's easy to understand. Mooney. He is not a top coach. Not terrible. Not great. Middling. If we just rolled the dice every 5 years likely would have a much better, and more motivated coach.

Forgive me.... I should've said that it's difficult for me to accept
that we're not consistently better.... not hard for me to understand why we're not.

 

[8legs1dream]

Don’t you guys get tired of being negative?

Don't you get tired of all the losing? silly question, I know

 

[RichmondNative]

One element of the head coaches responsibilities that doesn’t seem to be mentioned often, if at all, is staffing. Great coaches (and leaders in general) surround themselves with quality assistants and develop them. This is another area where CM is average at best. I believe there has been one assistant to date that has moved on to a head coaching position. Not much of a hit rate there either.

 

[SpiderGuy]

Don’t you guys get tired of being negative? It gets wearing just reading your comments.
I guess birds of a feather complain together..

Think when there is significant overlap between “negative” and “reality” it’s hard for some of us to turn our heads away from it. Eternal optimism unfortunately has shown us that is not enough to overcome 20 years of basic mediocrity or slightly above. I just don’t think that’s enough to buy more “positivity”.

 

[spider23]

One element of the head coaches responsibilities that doesn’t seem to be mentioned often, if at all, is staffing. Great coaches (and leaders in general) surround themselves with quality assistants and develop them. This is another area where CM is average at best. I believe there has been one assistant to date that has moved on to a head coaching position. Not much of a hit rate there either.

I feel like their is a "group think" culture here. Younger guys or system guys following the company line. And I get it, the hc sets the tone and gives orders, but seems like bringing in some independent thinkers would be a good thing. Felt like Boyden was a good hire and team last year was very defense focused. Wondering if that was aberration though?

 

[spiderman]

we may have given Boyden too much credit last year as the defensive coordinator.
or maybe he's only as good as the pieces he's handed.
end of the day ... it's the Jimmy's and Joe's, not the X's and O's.

 

[Eight Legger]

Of the new guys, only Dusan and B. Artis were about what we expected them to be. Dusan's deficiencies on defense are worse than expected, and B. Artis was hurt for a lot of the season, which affected his performance. GW3 and AP were big disappointments, especially coming from the programs they came from. I don't know if they just aren't good at basketball or our coaching has failed them, but to me that's a big reason why we suck. We've gotten virtually nothing from two big-time transfers who I think most of us expected to jump right in and be key contributors.

Of the returners, Walz and Tyne also were major disappointments until about a week or so ago, when they started playing much better. Again, hard to know whether they were failed by the coaching staff, just had a bad three months or suddenly figured something out. If they keep playing like this, maybe we can win a game in the A10 tourney.

 

[spiderman]

Of the new guys, only Dusan and B. Artis were about what we expected them to be.

maybe my expectations were too high, but B Artis hasn't met them.
in 24 mpg he's scoring 5.4 ppg and shooting 3's at 25.4% (!).
last year he was 10.4 ppg shooting 38.6% from 3.

 

[Ferrum Spider]

Don’t you guys get tired of being negative? It gets wearing just reading your comments.
I guess birds of a feather complain together..

Why arent you asking if our administration get tired gaslighting fans on how everything is AOK? Every time I turn on local radio I want to vomit listening to how this program is covered. Its an alternate reality.

 

[GKiller]

Why arent you asking if our administration get tired gaslighting fans on how everything is AOK? Every time I turn on local radio I want to vomit listening to how this program is covered. Its an alternate reality.

Culture of comfort. Trademark spider23.

vt4700 is in the bunker but think of his Fire Bennett/Extend Mooney cries. and ask why would that be the case. besides any personal connection to Mooney which I'm going to dismiss for now.

Bennett (relative to UVA) has done a much better job than Mooney (relative to UR). No sane person could look at them & say yeah Fire Bennett but extend Mooney. it's because of the little ol' Richmond mentality and the culture of comfort that something like that could exist.

 

[wr70beh]

My head is buzzing with all this complex analysis and math.
It’s simple: 20 years, 55%.

9-26 against VCU
9-13 against Dayton
8-15 against Mason
11-15 against SLU
11-13 against St. Joe's
14-15 against the Bonnies

4-5 against Bucknell (!!)

How is this a quality coach?

 

[Eight Legger]

maybe my expectations were too high, but B Artis hasn't met them.
in 24 mpg he's scoring 5.4 ppg and shooting 3's at 25.4% (!).
last year he was 10.4 ppg shooting 38.6% from 3.

Yeah, I mean I didn't expect much from him. He was a very late signee from a bad program at a lower level. I figured if he played 10-15 minutes a game as a backup and had the ability to hit a few shots, that would be his ceiling. He's been about that. I do think his injuries affected his offensive performance earlier in the year, and he's been shooting better since Jan. 29 – about 50% overall (26 of 53) and 38.5% from three (10 of 26), averaging 11.2 ppg in that span.

 

[8legs1dream]

9-26 against VCU
9-13 against Dayton
8-15 against Mason
11-15 against SLU
11-13 against St. Joe's
14-15 against the Bonnies

4-5 against Bucknell (!!)

How is this a quality coach?

if we weren’t the ones being punished by this professional loser it would be enough to make you laugh out loud

 

[SpiderGuy]

9-26 against VCU
9-13 against Dayton
8-15 against Mason
11-15 against SLU
11-13 against St. Joe's
14-15 against the Bonnies

4-5 against Bucknell (!!)

How is this a quality coach?

wow - closest losing differential is a tie between the Bonnies & "dominant" Patriot League team. Vs the A-10 not impressive at all.

 

[8legs]

You’re a bit too focused on the symptoms and not the problem.

There’s a group of folks here who want the program to get well, it’s ok to make noise

Don’t you guys get tired of being negative? It gets wearing just reading your comments.
I guess birds of a feather complain together..

I get tired of mediocrity.