Coaching incompetence
- Thread starter Eight Legger
- Start date
I'm not thrilled with plenty of things .... and can find a boat load of things to complain about.... but it might be worth nothing that the guys wanted to be here still in year 5 and 6. When we talk about our level of success as a program... that is not a factor that should be ignored. Weigh it however much you want to weigh it, including dismissing it entirely, but then I don't give a whole lot of credibility to your overall argument.
8legs1dream
Graduate Assistant
and as expected you have nothing to say about the 85% failure rate of your guy, EXTEND MOONIE!
Vegas, the issue with the moon defenders, most who come around every 5 to 6 years, is that they count both as NCAA seasons with the 6 year guys, when it was not possible but for the covid shutdown. I generously counted it in my comparison to some winning mid major coaches and programs and the 20 year under Mooney were woefully lacking in comparison. Yes, the culture of comfort does make it hard to leave. But now in the NIL era likely some of those guys would have been gone.
8legs1dream
Graduate Assistant
and relying on that model of catching lightning in a bottle for one week in March by a bunch of super-experienced players is just not sustainable and never has been and is getting less and less likely to happen as NIL culture has grown.
But there are people here that will tell you one NCAA trip in fourteen years is great and the best we could ever hope to achieve at poor little ol Richmond.
But there are people here that will tell you one NCAA trip in fourteen years is great and the best we could ever hope to achieve at poor little ol Richmond.
I don't consider myself a Mooney defender but I'll always count both years. both years happened. everyone on every team got the extra Covid year. if we stunk in 21-22 we'd count 19-20 as a great season unfortunately ended early, so why not because we were good?
there's plenty of ammo to go after Mooney with without creating a false narrative like a season didn't count.
Here's something interesting: Mooney's career record in the A10 is now 179-147 (shockingly 55%). But he is 21-5 against Fordham and 20-3 against Duquesne -- the two worst teams in the A10 since we've been in the league. Without the +33 lift he's gotten from beating up on those two schools, his A10 career record would be 138-139.
He literally has a career losing record collectively against everyone else in the league except the two worst teams.
He literally has a career losing record collectively against everyone else in the league except the two worst teams.
Now I will say other coaches usually beat up on bad teams too, but those coaches are moving on due to overperformance and being in demand, OR being fired for underperformance. So that kind of stat is way more applicable for a 20-year guy like Moon. It has helped prop him up way more. I guess Duq and Fordham is more important to us than VCU! Nobody else anywhere survies being the worst rivalry coach in history.
What r Moon's best metrics over 20 years? There aren't many at all. Seriously when u think about it, it's so hard. I'd go with 3-3 record in NCAA. But it means u have to ignore it's 1 ncaa in 14 years and 3 total in 20.
One of the closest comparisons to Mooney is James Jones at Yale. He's been there 26 years and is one of the longest-tenured mid-major guys in the nation. Maybe the longest other than Kampe at Oakland? Anyway, his overall winning percentage is 56%, but in the Ivy League he's 224-125. He has gone 81-16 against the Ivy's two worst teams, Dartmouth and Columbia, but is still 143-109 even without those games factored in. And he's had no losing seasons since 2012-13 and has averaged 20.6 wins a year since then, and is currently 16-6 (9-0 in the Ivy) this year.
Yale also has finished in the top 4 of the Ivy 23 years in a row. Granted it's a smaller league (8 teams), so a fair comparison for us would probably be a top 6 or 7 finish every year since Mooney arrived, which we haven't done. We've had a top-7 finish 11 times in Mooney's first 19 years but that will have happened only 5 times out of the last 10 seasons by the end of this season.
Also since that last losing season, Jones has won 5 of his 6 Ivy regular season titles, 3 Ivy tournament titles (they have only had the tourney for a little while now) and has made all 4 of his NCAA appearances.
In other words: He's still a winning coach against his league even when you remove his +65 from those two teams (basically double what Mooney's +33 is against Fordham and Duquesne), and he's justified his longevity by being consistently very good since his last bad season.
Yale also has finished in the top 4 of the Ivy 23 years in a row. Granted it's a smaller league (8 teams), so a fair comparison for us would probably be a top 6 or 7 finish every year since Mooney arrived, which we haven't done. We've had a top-7 finish 11 times in Mooney's first 19 years but that will have happened only 5 times out of the last 10 seasons by the end of this season.
Also since that last losing season, Jones has won 5 of his 6 Ivy regular season titles, 3 Ivy tournament titles (they have only had the tourney for a little while now) and has made all 4 of his NCAA appearances.
In other words: He's still a winning coach against his league even when you remove his +65 from those two teams (basically double what Mooney's +33 is against Fordham and Duquesne), and he's justified his longevity by being consistently very good since his last bad season.
simple solution. screw VCU. our new rival is Duquesne!
now we have the best rivalry coach in history!
Eight Legger I would like to drop a mortal lock. James Jones also has a better win % vs. Harvard than Mooney does VCU. Mortal lock. Nobody can beat my man Moon.
worst rivalry coach of all time. Amazing. At little ol' Richmond.
worst rivalry coach of all time. Amazing. At little ol' Richmond.
Yes but it wouldn't have counted for EVERYONE! EFFING everyone else does not count it for both unbelievable sman, you have surpassed 4700.
Most teams do not count an NCAA appearance for the covid year if they were not in the top 25.
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8legs1dream
Graduate Assistant
I have said before I'm pretty sure we talk about the cancelled covid season more than Dayton fans do and they had an actual shot at a 1 seed in the tournament that year. Meanwhile, we only talk about it in the context of propping up Moondog so some people can say "Look! We have had two successful seasons in 14 years not just one!!"
Yep both Dayton and SDSU might have had their beast teams ever. SDSU really came back strong from that gut punch, following it up with a s16 and a f2. No crying from Dutcher.
I don’t think anyone’s debating that it wasn’t a great season, it’s that we did not go to the ncaa tournament. No one did. So it doesn’t get a theoretical check mark that we would have gone.
I’m happy to credit CM with having a great season in 2020, and I’m happy to credit him with a decent season in 2022 that had a quasi-miraculous trip to the NCAAs. But we only made that one NCAA, not two.
Bump.
Maybe everyone associated with the program needs a rules refresher.
Maybe everyone associated with the program needs a rules refresher.
Sure looked to me like that botched inbounds play at the end was a play called in from the bench. Maybe I'm wrong. Regardless, inexcusable. Thankfully that LaSalle dude came back with the single worst attempt at a game-winning shot I've ever seen.
Hey now, I made a similar joke in the Duquesne thread (post #61) and didn’t get any credit for it! lol jk
Post in thread 'Mens - Duq @ RC - Wed 2/5 7pm ESPN+'
https://richmond.forums.rivals.com/threads/mens-duq-rc-wed-2-5-7pm-espn.15771/post-439735
then we're on the same page. I'm not counting 19-20 as a tournament year. we didn't go. nobody did. I'm just saying it was a great season. and it counts as a great season. so does 21-22, despite some frustrations early. they both count.
but to me it's not black and white that a great season has to end in a tournament bid. last year was a great season to me, though a sad ending. this year, even if we somehow won the A10 tournament ... this year sucked. heck, we could win an NCAA game and this was still a bad year.
Some frustrations early. This team had everyone back and was picked #1 preseason. They proceeded to go 9-4 in OOC with zero good wins and then 10-8 in conference to finish 6th. Finished 20-12 and weren't even going to sniff the NIT with Mooney's super class he had been touting for 5 years. Literally, the entire regular season was one gigantic let down.
That team was going down as the biggest Mooney flop all time until Gilly went nuclear in the A-10 tourney. As a fan, that was regular season was not a fun experience, watching all of that talent underperform game after game. We had 2 weeks in March that were awesome that year.
Ha beat me too it 97, and did not have to spend my time to look it up. Mooney was so bad in the regular season, I was getting private messages to NOT put up a billboard. Which I take no credit for anyway. The gist of those messages was that the sleepers in charge actually had enough of moon and were going to move on. In steps Gilly, Goose and crew to save the day and extend mooniocrity into oblivion. I used to be quite excited about incoming hs recruits but like many on this board moon has just killed the palpable buzz out of everything. Energy taker, not an energy giver.
As a reminder that year:
Was the year of the petition that had hundreds of signers, including some pretty notable folks.
A major donor told Mooney prior to the VCU game that he was advocating for a coaching change
And I think we learned retroactively through sources that Mooney was going to be fired had the A-10 run not taken place.
The noose was all but around Mooney's neck and Gilly saved his bacon. That run was great but we are still dealing with long term ramifications of it and will be for another few years probably.
Yes that run was a lot of fun. But it just kicked the can down the road. And still not sure PQ and Hardt would run much of a coaching search or have the package, including NIL, to get the right guy.
PETITION GUY!
What’s the story w the major donor and Mooney? Never heard that one.
Tho I disagree with spiderman that if we won A10 tourney and a ncaa game that it would be a bad season. What?
That means we won 5 in a row at least including some good teams and likely beating at least a 2 seed in ncaa. We’d be a huge story. Come on we have 3 NCAAs under Moon…yeah I’ll take that. It means we put it together somehow. I’ve said b4 u r judged more on end of year. But Moon is bad end of year historically.
However the odds of that r so astronomical that it’s not even a dreamed thought.
The odds are 100x higher we r out by 1:30 on Wednesday. Right now we r in the 11:30 Wednesday game. Best 2 weeks of year and we could be out b4 even conf tourney week gets going. fun times.
That means we won 5 in a row at least including some good teams and likely beating at least a 2 seed in ncaa. We’d be a huge story. Come on we have 3 NCAAs under Moon…yeah I’ll take that. It means we put it together somehow. I’ve said b4 u r judged more on end of year. But Moon is bad end of year historically.
However the odds of that r so astronomical that it’s not even a dreamed thought.
The odds are 100x higher we r out by 1:30 on Wednesday. Right now we r in the 11:30 Wednesday game. Best 2 weeks of year and we could be out b4 even conf tourney week gets going. fun times.
Gkiller, this was a while ago, so memory is hazy.
But apparently, Mooney met the donor to breakfast/lunch right before one of the VCU games that year and the donor told him to his face that he was done giving money until their was a coaching change. I wasn't there, I heard this second hand from someone else but a person I trust.
Besides that how was the meal Mr. Mooney
would have hired whoever was coaching Bucknell at the time
yes, we underperformed in the regular season. we were still a 24 win team, won the A10 tournament and won an NCAA game.
so I assume you look at 21-22 as a successful season.
I wonder how many teams with a losing record have ever won an NCAA tournament game that wasn't played at Dayton?
You can't on one hand make the argument that the only thing that matters for success is NCAA appearance and then on the other hand also say that if we were to make the NCAAs at a year like this, it still isn't successful. For me, that's why I have always claimed that there is more nuance to a successful season then having an NCAA appearance or not. I think we would all agree that even if by some miracle we won the A10 tournament this year, it won't be a good season overall. In my eyes, even with the disappointing end, last year was still a very good season for us.
The 21-22 is a tricky one. We certainly didn't perform up to expectations given who we had returning, but it wasn't abysmal similar to a year like this. So not only winning A10 tournament but also an NCAA game moved the needle in my eyes to an overall successful season. Certainly a subjective nature to it, but more realistic than a binary NCAA tournament: yes or no. In a world where teams from SEC will have 12-13 bids this year, it becomes even harder to do for non-P5s. So while NCAA appearances is obviously still a very important barometer of success, there are other factors as well.
The 21-22 is a tricky one. We certainly didn't perform up to expectations given who we had returning, but it wasn't abysmal similar to a year like this. So not only winning A10 tournament but also an NCAA game moved the needle in my eyes to an overall successful season. Certainly a subjective nature to it, but more realistic than a binary NCAA tournament: yes or no. In a world where teams from SEC will have 12-13 bids this year, it becomes even harder to do for non-P5s. So while NCAA appearances is obviously still a very important barometer of success, there are other factors as well.
who is making that argument? I think it was spiderman.
Moon gets more nuance than any coach in the country! so last year 100% gets more downgraded. When u r 3 for 19 NCAA u shouldn't get the benefit of the doubt. when u r 3 for 19 it does become more yes or no. stack some ncaas and get a pass. Mooney doesn't. Literally 90% of his metrics r underperforming for what our standards should be.
Also I just posted above that going by spiderman's premise, it would be a good year. 5 straight w NCAA win. Maybe even over 1 seed idk, tho I tend to think they would value us higher coming from A10 and being on a roll & we'd def avoid that 16 seed. But anyway, no we don't all agree. Hand raised.
so where's the line....if went to final 4 this season...it's still not successful? lol. your problem imo is u r making every game and every part of season equal. They r not. The OOC with big games, if we valued that higher, r much more important. Fact. The A10 tourney is obviously much more important. Fact. Last year we had no real chance at bid because we flubbed the OOC. Then we choked the end of year badly. The A10 reg season was very good. Unfortunately the two bigger parts of season were quite bad. I don't see equating to very good overall. In little ol' Richmond extension world it's great because we have such a narrow low bar view of things.
Likewise if we crushed & went to NCAA and won a game, it won't be a good year? I say it will, u don't. That's strange to me.
Look I want a consistent winning succesful program....that qualifies for more NCAAs...we are clearly far from it. That's why we need a coaching change. But given we are a lightning in a bottle program, if you offer me lightning in a bottle I'll jump on it. Because the good alternatives are few & far between. So have your choke in A10 to St Joes and get blown out in NIT that so many don't care about, and I guess you'll be happier. I'll take my A10 tourney title & NCAA win and all the fun and spoils that come w it....hypothetically of course.
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I just want to thank Spider-Man and student 17 for pointing out that my expectations have been way too high all these years. Man, I miss 4700 and 80’s fan. The voices of reason.
GoSpiders! Beat vcu!
GoSpiders! Beat vcu!
I obviously wasn't clear.
GK, you seem like you're black or white on good/bad year. have to make the dance for a good year. 3 for 19.
I'm in line with 97. there's much more to a good year. no, I don't think a run this season would make it a good season after the crap we've watched for 4 months. sweet 16 might sway me I guess, but even then it's just a great run in an awful season.
21-22 was sometimes frustrating but still won 24 games and a tournament game. that's a good year.
19-20 was a good year.
23-24 ... to me that was a good year. we were the #1 seed in the A10 tournament. we didn't dance. still a good year to me. I want a realistic chance in March. as a #1 seed we had that.
we don't have that this year.
GK, you seem like you're black or white on good/bad year. have to make the dance for a good year. 3 for 19.
I'm in line with 97. there's much more to a good year. no, I don't think a run this season would make it a good season after the crap we've watched for 4 months. sweet 16 might sway me I guess, but even then it's just a great run in an awful season.
21-22 was sometimes frustrating but still won 24 games and a tournament game. that's a good year.
19-20 was a good year.
23-24 ... to me that was a good year. we were the #1 seed in the A10 tournament. we didn't dance. still a good year to me. I want a realistic chance in March. as a #1 seed we had that.
we don't have that this year.
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