Burton declaring for NBA draft, maintaining eligibility
- Thread starter SFspidur
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If he is first team all A10 as expected - he has no reason to stay. Anything below that - and he might or should reconsider.
Think we all want Burton to have a gangbusters year and then get drafted. But agree there is some chance of other possibilities. Some on here r adamant that both Burton & Crabtree are 100% gone & nothing less. because we r still recruiting (OV w Durkin) & otherwise have already committed to over the 13 limit, discounting that a coaching staff might anticipate transfers too.
It would be more nuanced than that, as others have stated it would make sense that a coaching staff is honest about a player's future prospects and pt too. Some could conceivably call that forced, I would not. So I agree with you. & I don't think we have to force it anyway, happens on own organically.
if we're taking commitments over the 13 allowed without knowing people are leaving, then we're forcing someone to leave. how can we "be honest" about a players future already in September? that's a little early in the year to me. I don't think we'd do that.
I think at a minimum we "know" the plan is for Burton to play out this year and move on. and based on Durkin's vist I "think" we've been told someone else plans to be done ... which would seem to most likely be Crabtree.
We wouldn’t in Sept. that’s more of an end of season convo. Yes it’s quite probable we know or think re: Burton & Crab but that does not equal 100%. It’s also very early too. What do u think…if Burton gets injured does that decrease or increase his odds of returning? imo there is actually a better chance statistically of us losing a player to transfer than of 2 guys w eligibility not returning, that’s all I’m saying.
fwiw I think we r now doing a better job of roster management. If we could figure out scheduling management…
Of course. But what does having "a really good season" get him?? He's still doubtful for the NBA imo and pro ball somewhere else will be there so maybe he wants an advanced degree or just to suck up college life another year...I still think he leaves UR but far from guaranteed
I guess most people think playing well tends to raise your draft stock, and Burton is generally recognized as being a potential nba player by the media and fans.
Anyone remember Harper's pro prospects following his junior year? He was pretty inconsistent as a junior even though he had the physical tools, but his senior year was extremely consistent. I feel like he had something like 1 off game the entire senior season, and was very efficient, including from 3 point range.
Hoping that Burton similarly has a senior season where it all comes together - scoring, rebounding, efficiency and consistency.
Hoping that Burton similarly has a senior season where it all comes together - scoring, rebounding, efficiency and consistency.
Richmond University- sheesh.
Tyler Burton: Spider-Man
A look at how one of the best Richmond Spiders of all-time could translate to the NBA.www.noceilingsnba.com
But, statistically it's not every year we have an NBA guy like Burton and a 5th year guy like Crabtree. You are using history as if every player and every situation is the same.
You talk about injuries. Well, what if a couple guys get injured and guys who might have been lower on the depth chart get some time and play well? Who transfers then? Since we have had guys transfer in the past, if Mooney were the type of coach who went above 13 scholarships in the fall because of possible transfers in the spring, wouldn't he have already recruited that way in the past? He never has. There is no chance, zero, 0, not happening, none, that Mooney would go above 13 just because he thinks someone still on our roster right now might transfer the following spring. Mooney just doesn't operate that way.
Look at when we got Tyler in here. He was our only recruit because that put us at 13. When Schneider left the following spring, that put us at 12, so if what you say is accurate, wouldn't Mooney have offered a 2nd guy that year with Tyler because he "anticipated" a transfer?
Look at when we got Dji in here in May, 2020. That was only after Wojcik transferred in April, 2020. We didn't make an extra offer in the fall of 2019. We waited until after Wojcik transferred to offer Dji. There is no evidence Mooney has ever recruited the way you are saying, but plenty of evidence that says he does not.
And, I don't think an injury or anything else would prevent Tyler from leaving after this year. He will be 23 next spring. If he stayed another year and had another injury, then what? After this year, there will be nothing for him to do or work on to improve his stock. It will time for him to be a pro and make his money. And Crabtree is already 23 and in his 5th year of college. It is really not that hard to figure out why we are above 13 scholarships right now. It is certainly not because we are "anticipating" transfers.
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You seem to be getting worked up over this I don't know why. I've never claimed to know how Mooney is operating exactly here, neither should you. Unless you have spoken to Burton Crabtree and Mooney and have insider info I just don't see how anyone could say it is 100% neither return. Are we operating as if they're gone, yes it certainly seems that way. But is me or others considering it's not 100% some crazy take? I don't think so but u r entitled to your own opinion. After all last week I thought u saying nobody has oversigned or over committed ships in the history of college basketball was a crazy take.
Bottom line is Mooney has already gone above 13. he's done it, but not a big deal at all given our roster situation. Again, I do agree it's probably a high percentage chance Burt & Crab don't return but not 100. I can foresee other possibilities, & circumstances change sometimes. However Mooney can reasonably operate with those 2 not returning, and then if circumstances did actually change and maybe 1 was back, well he would still be fine because he would have a ship available end of year due to normal transfer rate anyway. To say that here at U of R or anywhere else that you cannot anticipate a transfer does not make much sense to me. We have them every year. yes I'm using stats, so do coaches.
Sure, you can anticipate a transfer, and it is very possible we will have one or more in the spring, but Mooney has never offered guys in the fall and gone over 13 scholarships as a result because he anticipates a transfer happening. We certainly would have had more than just Tyler in Tyler's recruiting class that year if Mooney did it that way. And, not at all worked up. We just disagree here, I feel confident about my opinion on this one, and until I actually see it happening, I will never believe Mooney will offer extra guys based on the anticipating of transfers.
You say there is not a 100% chance Tyler and Crabtree don't return. My point all along has been I feel they have already had this discussion with Mooney. They know how scholarships work. They know if they are definitely not coming back, it is in the best interest of the program to let Mooney know. You ask what if they change their mind? I don't think anything could change their mind, which is why I think they have already had the discussions.
You say there is not a 100% chance Tyler and Crabtree don't return. My point all along has been I feel they have already had this discussion with Mooney. They know how scholarships work. They know if they are definitely not coming back, it is in the best interest of the program to let Mooney know. You ask what if they change their mind? I don't think anything could change their mind, which is why I think they have already had the discussions.
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8legs1dream
Graduate Assistant
But what he has done is offer guys in fall and gone over 13 ships because he anticipates players with remaining eligibility leaving. Which apparently is ok. And it's ok with me. Yes, that could be based on what the players are anticipating doing, even though in past Mooney has said he doesn't have those discussions until end of year. But regardless those odds are still less than a transfer imo.
we have had more transfers in recent years. I felt before that we used to have less than normal.
Wilson last year ... and while he struggled he definitely had some talent.
I guess Weir counts. it feels like he was never here.
I can't remember if the Wojcik/Verbinskis/Schneider/Ford group all left at once or over some years.
our current roster talent seems better than those guys, though. I guess there are a couple of guys we either haven't seen or heard much from in Randolph, Dread and Walz. but they may be very talented. they may also be buried behind others. we can only play so many. some guys won't get time and can get disappointed.
Mooney hasn't recruited-over before. and he's said he's very comfortable with what's now available in the transfer portal, and proved it this year. what 4700 says does make total sense. he very well might only be still recruiting knowing everyone's plans.
but it's possible he's just gambling that he has another spot, and he feels in this one case he has to take a shot in Durkin to land an "A" recruit. it doesn't feel right ... knowing Mooney's history. and I'm sure he wouldn't want to have that conversation at the end of the year if nobody leaves. but it's possible.
Yes, that's more than okay if the discussions have already been had with players. If I am a coach, and a player tells me this is it for him and he's moving on after this year, and we go through all of the are you sure, because if so that opens up some more offers. They say, yes, 100% coach. Then, yes, I'm going to go over 13 in the fall. No, I don't know for a fact what Crabtree might have said, but if we offer a fourth guy in the fall, then yes, I'm pretty confident this is what happened.
Yes but I wouldn't call it gambling sman. I like gambling but the house has the advantage. In this case the house (U of R) has such an overwhelming advantage of odds in their favor it could not even be considered gambling.
I'll try to make this my last comment bc it is getting circular. VT4700 obviously presumes it is 100%. I do not. That's the difference. I've been around enough to know that virtually nothing is 100%. Kids change their mind, circumstances change, they were not signing a contract to leave, heck these recruits have only given us verbals. So you have to factor all that in which I imagine the coaches did.
& I don't expect either of you to accept this perspective considering just last week I couldn't even get u to accept that any coach in the history of college basketball had ever gone over the scholarship limit.
I will say that I am in the belief that Mooney would not offer someone, unless he has had a discussion with a player - like Crab- and is told he is leaving after the season. I find it very unlikely that conversation would have happened with anyone other than Crab and Burton. I find it way too logical to think that either has plans of returning. Burton - hurt, not hurt, etc is going to be ready to test the waters and start his pro career. Crab - I see every reason in the world that when he had the talk with Mooney about this year, they both made the decision about the following year.
never said that. I said Mooney hasn't done it. not sure why you're confident having never done it that now he would.
Sorry that was VT4700 who said he had never heard of a basketball coach doing that ever. Guess he's the only one. Likewise, where have I ever said I'm confident he would do it. Never said that. Only that it is plausible conceptually since he's willing to do it for something that is actually less likely to occur imo than not having a transfer. And that coaching staffs these days including ours should anticipate transfers.
I said I had never heard or read about that, and if you had, cool. And, your 2 big examples were Duquesne, with the article saying they may or may not have gone over, and Louisville with Pitino from a long time ago. I also said it didn't matter whether other coaches had done this or not, because we were discussing Mooney, who has never done this. I also added that I wasn't saying you were wrong, only that I had not seen that or read about it. So, after all that, if you still want to take this "I told you so" victory lap, go right ahead.
As for being the only one thinking something, my guess is you are the only one who thinks it is more likely we have 2 guys transfer than not having Tyler and Crabtree after this year. You really don't see the difference in making offers because Tyler, who is likely an NBA guy and almost left after last year, and Crabtree, who is in year 5 now and also almost left last year (Mooney mentioned him coming back with Grace and Goose) saying they are done after this year and just assuming transfers will happen? Actually, you are saying the transfer part is more likely, and Mooney is going over 13 now only because we will definitely have transfers leaving?
Sure, coaches should anticipate transfers, and the best way to make up for that is with transfers from the portal, not with a fall signing the year before when you don't even know who is transferring.
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Mooney doesn't over schedule games. What makes anyone think he over extends scholarships. It's no secret that I'm not a hugh Mooney fan but since he's who we have, trust the dude to do his job. I'd like to think that he can get this part right.
Those were not my examples of hearing or reading that u know that, they were only quick examples pulled bc u acted like it could not be true unless I produced an article.
at least 1 transfer. Not 2. I highly doubt I’m only one who finds our odds of having a transfer which have essentially run at 100% for many years to be a little higher than both Burt & crab not returning. Both things r likely & expected but yep I find the former more so.
I expect at least 1, if not more, transfers also, but disagree on what is more likely. And, I stand by my opinion saying Mooney would not do something this fall that he had never done before. Don't you think he would have signed more than Tyler in that class if he did things this way?
Burton podcast appearance (starts just before 1:10:00 mark). Starts with brief mention about his knee and says he'll be back on the court in a couple of weeks. Some discussion about the NBA draft experience, the feedback he received for things to work on, the Big Dance experience, Grace's big plays down the stretch last year (and expectations for this season), and more.
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great interview. VERY interesting hearing Burton talk first about MFG.
some of you have been way ahead of the curve on him (at least ahead of me!). I'm guessing based on this podcast that Grace does in fact start which some of you were already sure of.
I guess probably at the 4 which keeps Burton at the 3.
also love him talking about wanting to make a jump in his defense. called himself "pretty shaky" on defense last year. wants to shut down the other team's best player. and expanding his abililty to shoot the ball.
some of you have been way ahead of the curve on him (at least ahead of me!). I'm guessing based on this podcast that Grace does in fact start which some of you were already sure of.
I guess probably at the 4 which keeps Burton at the 3.
also love him talking about wanting to make a jump in his defense. called himself "pretty shaky" on defense last year. wants to shut down the other team's best player. and expanding his abililty to shoot the ball.
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Line up will work itself out - great to have options and hope that Moon is flexible about using what seems like many different players who can contribute, to utilize the varying strengths they bring.
I am hoping Moon has changed some philosophies based on what happened in the spring and summer on the court and via the portal. He's a smart guy, and constant adjustments are needed. Roster construction and management has never been one of his primary strengths but no reason it can never be.
I am hoping Moon has changed some philosophies based on what happened in the spring and summer on the court and via the portal. He's a smart guy, and constant adjustments are needed. Roster construction and management has never been one of his primary strengths but no reason it can never be.
Another good find SF. Burton definitely sounds hyped for the season and there is no doubt to me that we are going to see more energy on the court. Hopefully it is focused energy and the guys don’t get too up or too down during the flow of the season. Had good things to say about Grace and also Nelson, which is good news for those concerned about the point spot.
Awesome interview. Tyler is such a class act. You can tell he is legitimately excited about this team this year. I loved hearing him say "we are going to be unbelievable" and loved hearing how hard the guys are working. It sounds like the chemistry is great and everybody is buying in. This is his team, and it sounds like he is ready to lead, and the guys are ready to follow. I love it!
And I get the opinion. can't speak to the recruiting that year, but I agree Mooney hasn't done it before so it doesn't matter. But things change. The no sit out transfer rule wasn't in place then. Plenty of transfers then but it's become even more prevalent. This is a different situation with the Burton & Crabtree decisions. Again he can plan for ships to be for those 2 and also have plausible deniability for recruits, yet if something happened & 1 of those guy returned (unlikely but not as far fetched as u deem imo) we'll have a ship anyway from a transfer. More options and allows factoring spring transfers into the equation.
& tbh, I'm not sure if Crabtree would 100% commit to not returning. To me it doesn't help him. I feel Mooney is going to play the guys who give him best chance to win regardless, but it can be a little different when u r a 2 year guy vs 1 year guy. Especially in blowout games or if the season really went south, it's not inconceivable to think about future player development. A lot of ppl would be in favor of that. I don't see that w Mooney but purely from a Crabtree perspective I can see it as consideration to leave the 2 year door possibility open. And if he blew up this year and had a unexpectedly great year....who knows.
Agree. calm, composed interview. But u can also feel his excitement to prove themselves again. awareness of taking step defensively. leadership. good stuff.
One of the best things is to hear what players or coaches think of who will surprise or make a big leap etc. So the parts on Grace especially and then Jason Nelson too were exciting.
We might see different starting lineups based on matchups idk. Mooney did go "big" more often end of last season.
Just listened, agree with comments on here - great interview. Yes, excited to hear the hype about Nelson and MFG. If those two play up to Tyler's expectation we will be in good shape this season.
On the defensive end, IF MFG is playing big minutes, I hope that he and Tyler do take a big jump defensively. Pretty confident in MFG to put the ball in the hoop this year if given more opportunity, but still wary on the D side of things. Hope Tyler can get back on court 100% soon. Even though he is missing out on opportunity to work on things now, I think the feedback and reps he got in the draft process will help him a ton this year.
On the defensive end, IF MFG is playing big minutes, I hope that he and Tyler do take a big jump defensively. Pretty confident in MFG to put the ball in the hoop this year if given more opportunity, but still wary on the D side of things. Hope Tyler can get back on court 100% soon. Even though he is missing out on opportunity to work on things now, I think the feedback and reps he got in the draft process will help him a ton this year.
Looks like Burton back from his injury. I'm sure spiderman will blame Bigelow for this defense.
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