They have to leave for non football conferences, so the only option is the big east correct? Not sure they are looking to expand.
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- Thread starter Eight Legger
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AAC has Wichita State as a non football member and might expand, especially if they get raided.
I don't know for sure but it's probably not 4 mil. No need to relitigate the buyout convo but it would be catastrophically stupid if we didn't put in some type of buyout to defray those costs at the last extension when Mooney had zero leverage. But frankly we should know, and it all goes back to lack of transparency. The policy of not releasing contract figures because we are a private school I hate. There r advantages in many cases to being private, but that one reeks. Especially when u r required to document the highest salaries annually on 990 forms. Nobody cares about what the field hockey coach makes, but there is absolutely a different standard that should apply to the highest paid personnel in a multi billion organization like UR. But they care nothing of transparency and we've seen that play out all year with all the other bs they spewed over covid protocols.
Also u r aware UR has money in other accounts, correct? Plenty. It's not like the endowment is the only $ we have. Even if it were $4 mil, and it shouldn't be but I grant u that it might bc tweedle dum pretentious Hardt is the AD, but even if it were we can afford. UR comes up with $$ when they need it. For lots of things. & we pay our ex presidents loads for doing nothing.
Also if we keep extending Mooney and conceivably he gets paid a little more in those future years, we could certainly save $ on a new staff in 3 years. I would want to pay well for new coach but I expect new coach would come under Mooney pay to start. And if that new coach does well and ends up getting more it's because we r earning NCAA units for NCAA appearances. The pay is not the issue, it's that we don't earn the NCAA $. You gotta spend $ to make $. But you have to spend it well. We r obviously not doing that. Bring in a new coach and u can make up that $ quickly.
Don't get me wrong the extension was a gigantic miscalculation and really is a fireable offense for Hardt too. I'm not saying it plays no role it does. But that said there really is no crying poor from U of R allowed. It's completely feasible. Hardt has to ask PQ when to go the bathroom but I imagine he doesn't want to look stupid for giving a multi million extension and then having to fire him just 6 months later. News flash the A10 commish took care of making him look stupid anyway.
true. but still 3 big checks.
absolutely.
in retrospect the extension wasn't necessary, and some here argued that at the time. but if we didn't care about winning, we definitely wouldn't have extended there. why would we? if he leaves he leaves, so what? just hire a cheaper guy since we don't care about winning.
8legs1dream
Graduate Assistant
I'd say it's pretty likely one of those moves on to greener pastures in the next ten years but certainly not all three.
If we cared about winning, we would do things that actually result in us winning and do other things when we don't win. My definition of winning is making NCAA tournaments. Apparently the school's definition is "winning record."
My argument is that extending Mooney after one good year was unnecessary. It's not like we had achieved much of anything with him the last decade, and we had ALL the leverage.
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What's worse - the price to buy Mooney out or the price to keep him around with zero expectations of monetary rewards of making the NCAA's as well as the pride and satisfaction of seeing our school in the NCAA Tournament? Cost / Benefit Analysis is taught in the B school. I highly recommend Hardt enroll & learn.
Respectfully, nobody here knows what the buyout is. It could be $4m or $1.00.
And if we care about winning, then we should be prepared to buy it out if CM isn’t the guy. But Hardt thinks he’s the guy.
Then you better get the AD motivated because the A10 experiment is a failure and the Broad Street boys did what UR dreamt about. The only thing that is now on par is facilities and that just happened. Unfortunately, it takes more than money to fix coaching and recruiting. Of course, CM appreciates the generosity.
You know what is embarrassing. The St. Louis game fiasco and not being ready to play against inferior opponents.
What's more embarrassing is that in 16 years we have never won A10 regular season title, the tournament only once, and haven't been to NCAA's in a decade. Now, that is embarrassing for any proud Spider to take.
Using your logic, we would never fire a coach unless they violated a morals clause in their contract.
Hardt giving Mooney an extension was a mistake, giving him an extension without some kind of adjusted buy out would have been stupid.....nobody was luring Mooney away
It’s easy to see the big east going to 12 and not to hard to see it going to 14. Plus how would VCU being in the big east feel to you?
8legs1dream
Graduate Assistant
yeah I think VCU doesn't have enough in common with the current Big East members. AAC seems more likely of a destination for them. I think Xavier would have something to say about Dayton joining the Big East as well so of the three listed maybe SLU would be the best fit of them?
SLU could have been added back in the original round of expansion, but they didn't have enough basketball success. That has not really changed since 2013.
VCU is more of a candidate now that they've reached the NCAAs without Shaka and despite losing several recruiting classes. Maintained success and proven fanbase that travels to NYC. Need to reach the 2nd weekend again soon though. With UConn now in the Big East, another public addition isn't out of the question. Investment into a $25 million practice facility and a $2 million/year media rights deal shows commitment and eye balls on the program.
Dayton will never be added, as Xavier would block it at every turn. Regardless, I think the Big East is content at 11 programs for now (although only have 3 bids this year might ramp up expansion talks). One thing I could see if SLU being added to solidify the western teams (Creighton is really on an island, Marquette wants SLU) and VCU added to balance them out with an eastern team.
The only reason UConn got in as a public school is just because they were previous members of the old big east. I really can’t see many in the big east being ok with adding vcu. Vcu will likely end up in the American if anywhere. A team that would make sense in the big east would be Loyola chicago. Another catholic school to add to the Midwest footprint of the league and one that has had a lot of recent success.
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The Big East made an exception for UConn because they are UConn — they were in the Big East forever the first time around.
Yes, I think most remember when UConn was in the Big East. You're right, many AAC folks have clamored for VCU to be added to balance an Army football only addition.
Loyola-Chicago has a total student enrollment of 17,000 and in the same city as Big East member DePaul (which recently opened a new arena). DePaul would likely block them, just like Xavier would block Dayton. Expansion candidates that are left would be: VCU, SLU and a host of others that aren't as prominent.
The Big East has a media rights contract up for negotiation in 4 years. From what's been told, they have an elevator contract up to $600 million for 12 teams. IF they look to add programs, it will be to add more NCAA bids and help their media rights negotiations. VCU has its own media rights deal for $2 million per year for its secondary and tertiary rights. It's a proven commodity in a media rights market and signals to the conference the potential worth in a new conference-wide rights deal. Not sure what SLU pulls, or what other candidates not duplicative in Big East member cities might bring. VCU also proves it travels well to NYC conference tournaments.
Val Ackerman (Big East Commissioner) said that any new adds would be considered on their ability to bring a "brand" and their "geography". The eastern schools want to keep the traditional I-95 corridor urban school model. With UConn added, that would be another vote for VCU being one of the few markets in that corridor that doesn't have a Big East team (another reason why Richmond would be considered if its other metrics added up).
Andy Katz wrote back in 2013 that other schools discussed by the Big East for expansion were: SLU, Dayton, Richmond and VCU. Given the above and recent basketball success, it seems like it would be down to SLU and VCU.
All that said, I think the Big East is happy at 11 currently and won't seek expansion soon.
8legs1dream
Graduate Assistant
Wouldn't a more accomplished conference want to make sure that Loyola-Chicago wasn't just a flash in the pan before they made a move like that? They have only been relevant for a few years. They could be like George Mason and slink back into obscurity soon and be an anchor in whatever new conference picked them up.
Not saying we never will, but I don't believe we've ever paid a coach to go away. If we did I'd feel more confident in our appetite to do so.
We also never paid a coach$15 million before, either. And in the modern era, we've never had a coach miss the NCAAs for a decade straight. There's a first time for everything.
You're spot on that it's not in our DNA to operate that way. We also never gave out 10-year contracts, so someone should have reset our appetite to get out of them when we decided to offer them.
It's really weird that this is how we think btw. Contracts by nature are designed to protect against worst case scenarios, but that doesn't appear to be UR's ethos, they'd rather just let the contract die a slow death.
I believe we accepted less money from DePaul than contracted to make Jer go away. At least that's the tale Jimnasium tells now.
But if we never let a coach reach his lame duck season (how would we ever recruit?) our rev sport coaches are essentially CFL.
Wainwright actually refused to pay his buyout with us, claiming that UR had changed its academic standards, and therefore his contract with two years on it should be null. UR sued him for $420,000 for breach of contract, and they settled for $250,000.
It happens. Ole Jer just lawyered up and fought the buyout numbers he owed. It happens in reverse too. We could do the same with Mooney. rather than litigate it for long time and both spending more $ on lawyers they negotiate a fair quick settlement both agree to. Usually those numbers r black & white so not much you can generally fight but it happens just to make it go away.
By quick review at least 10 more teams added to this 197 #, possibly even more...
Ga Tech, Rutgers, App State, Morehead State, Hartford, Drexel, Grand Canyon, UCSB, Drake, Oral Roberts.
Ga Tech, Rutgers, App State, Morehead State, Hartford, Drexel, Grand Canyon, UCSB, Drake, Oral Roberts.
I'm more embarrassed that we have been to the NCAA in 10 years and continue to go with same leadership that has delivered results. Meanwhile, our crosstown rival in the same league of us, has changed coaches 3 times and makes it pretty much every year. That is what embarrasses me.
If someone told you after our Sweet 16 run in 2011 that we would sitting here 10 years later and not return and yet we would still have Mooney as our coach, they would have been laughed out of the room.
8legs1dream
Graduate Assistant
No way I would have believed that in a hundred million years.
And that might be how long it takes for Moonpie to get a team in the NCAA tournament.
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