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Worst loss in Mooney era, 12/08/2024, & future prospects of UR basketball

If it’s you 05, you are one of my heroes! You are a well educated Spider who was taught well, aways question authority, especially when the emperor wears no clothes. Raising a beer for you tonight!
How was he allegedly threatened and if so why didn’t he go public?
 
The defensive plan for this game was awful. "Pick your poison". We'll I'll pick the 2-point poison of Johni Broome vs Walz and Beagle vs. the 3-point poison of wide open shooters all day every day. "Slow, poorly-executed double teams and hope they miss threes" isn't a good strategy. Sending Mikkel Tyne as the guy who doubles is even dumber. Sucking in every one of the weak-side defenders into the paint so that all it takes is one skip pass from Broome over Tyne is even dumber than that. And not changing the plan for at least 20 minutes is even dumber than THAT.

I'm tired of every one of our defensive possessions looking like a Chinese fire drill.

Frickin' guard the guy in front of you. Not sometimes, not for half the possession. All the time. It's pride, concentration, and effort.
 
On one hand, I tend to agree with 4700 - the talent level was so disparate that anything we tried was doomed to failure.

However, completely understand Kneepad's frustration. Mooney never seems to have a plan B. I was listening to some radio on my commute yesterday and they were talking about what a masterful job Pope did at Kentucky, after falling behind to Gonzaga. He switched between three defenses to stall Gonzaga. They made the point about how Calipari would have stayed the course and probably lost by 25.

I feel like Mooney is very slow to adjust to talent and situation. Last season we had 5-7 guys that could all guard their own position very well. This year we do not. But we have some size. I realize lateral quickness and foot speed is very key to any defense you play, but you can scheme a little and hold guys to a certain standard - or sit down.
 
I can agree with that. You have to try other stuff, even desperation type stuff, sometimes. Maybe don't double Broome and see if Auburn was willing to keep feeding him all game. If he gets 5 straight dunks/layups on you, okay, go back to something else.
 
Frickin' guard the guy in front of you. Not sometimes, not for half the possession. All the time. It's pride, concentration, and effort.
I said something to this effect about 1-2 months ago where I view defense as mostly having that pride and competitive edge that no one is going to allow someone to dunk the ball on them, make easy 3’s, or drive past you for a lay-up with some element of coaching. I thinker spiderman, correctly commented that there’s a component of athleticism too in the equation. So my question is which aspect are we mostly lacking on the defense this year: pride/competitive edge mentality, coaching, or athleticism?
 
. So my question is which aspect are we mostly lacking on the defense this year: pride/competitive edge mentality, coaching, or athleticism?
I would say all of it.

Athleticism. Dusan, AP, Connor are all very slow, lack lateral quickness, mobility. Beagle is not strong enough to play against larger center. Our 2 guards are very athletic but short and can be passed over very easily when we double.

Coaching: I don't honestly know what we are doing. It seems like our coaches know we lack athleticism and most of our players can't guard 1 on 1. So, we are using double teams, more help side defense, but that is leaving the 3 ball wide open and we see a lot of flying Dutchman.

Pride/Competitive Edge: Man, I don't see it. We got dunked on repeatedly and just continued to let it happen. We let Auburn treat us like little boys. This has always been a big complaint of mine with Mooney based teams. He coaches a soft brand of basketball (we don't go after offensive rebound, our offense is based on "fluidity", back door cuts, he is happy for us to "compete". So, unless a kid is hardwired to be really competitive, they aren't getting the edge from the coaching staff and the way they approach the game. I really hate this about Mooney ball, basketball is a competitive contact sport and too often he wants to play sissy ball. A team might not be the most talented but I always want a team to be physically tough and give 110% effort. We don't play that way as a function of our system.

Last year, we had guys who had that strong competitive fire and they collectively were able to bring that to the court. This year, we have Delonnie, and he isn't getting any help from the way Mooney approaches the game to breathe that into the other guys.
 
Beagle is not strong enough to play against larger center.
maybe this is where we can solve some of our issues. Beagle is a good player. but I don't think he's been as effective as he can be playing the 5. play him at the 4 with Walz. rebounding and interior defense should improve. rotate Soulis in too if he's healthy.

I'm an advanced stats believer. or at least a trier. Player Efficiency Rating (PER) says our top 5 are Hunt, Beagle, Roche, Dusan and Walz. it's a little light on ball handling obviously. Tyne is next. bring him in for Roche or Dusan as needed.
 
I would say all of it.

Athleticism. Dusan, AP, Connor are all very slow, lack lateral quickness, mobility. Beagle is not strong enough to play against larger center. Our 2 guards are very athletic but short and can be passed over very easily when we double.

Coaching: I don't honestly know what we are doing. It seems like our coaches know we lack athleticism and most of our players can't guard 1 on 1. So, we are using double teams, more help side defense, but that is leaving the 3 ball wide open and we see a lot of flying Dutchman.

Pride/Competitive Edge: Man, I don't see it. We got dunked on repeatedly and just continued to let it happen. We let Auburn treat us like little boys. This has always been a big complaint of mine with Mooney based teams. He coaches a soft brand of basketball (we don't go after offensive rebound, our offense is based on "fluidity", back door cuts, he is happy for us to "compete". So, unless a kid is hardwired to be really competitive, they aren't getting the edge from the coaching staff and the way they approach the game. I really hate this about Mooney ball, basketball is a competitive contact sport and too often he wants to play sissy ball. A team might not be the most talented but I always want a team to be physically tough and give 110% effort. We don't play that way as a function of our system.

Last year, we had guys who had that strong competitive fire and they collectively were able to bring that to the court. This year, we have Delonnie, and he isn't getting any help from the way Mooney approaches the game to breathe that into the other guys.
I hear you 97 about the physicality piece. I think we were all hopeful about this when we heard interviews over the summer about physicality of practice, the scrimmage, and emphasis on rebounding. Sounds like we do a decent enough job with defense rebounding % based on the stats from fan2011 but you can only rebound missed shots, and we are letting our opponents score more this year.

With respect to coaching, I wouldn't say that is the fundamental issue in this particular case because our defense was very good last year. You can also coach so much based on the cards your dealt so to speak. Maybe coaching is at fault to some extent here in the sense we are trying to over-correct our lack of athleticism by trying too many different things leaving a lot of wide-open shots like you said.

I have to imagine that a D1 player has to be competitive and there is a level of pride at some point when teams are beating you so badly or we're losing to teams we should never lose to, to pick things up and play strong. So for me, while all 3 are contributing to this, perhaps lack of athleticism is the key reason this year. Something for us to think about when we evaluate who would be a good fit here. Defense has to be the foundation we predicate our game on in my opinion.
 
maybe this is where we can solve some of our issues. Beagle is a good player. but I don't think he's been as effective as he can be playing the 5. play him at the 4 with Walz. rebounding and interior defense should improve. rotate Soulis in too if he's healthy.

I'm an advanced stats believer. or at least a trier. Player Efficiency Rating (PER) says our top 5 are Hunt, Beagle, Roche, Dusan and Walz. it's a little light on ball handling obviously. Tyne is next. bring him in for Roche or Dusan as needed.
I think Mooney said with Soulis back now, he might try and go with 2 big men, so we will see. The issue that I think this bring to the table is while that might make us better on defense, Walz and Beagle both play the 5 out of the high post on offense. So, one of them would have to play out of their natural position on offense. I would hope that would be Walz, I want him down low and out of the high post where he is not much of a threat outside of an occasional back door cut.

But our offense is equally a mess and so if we start tinkering with where guys are playing, does that make things even worse.
 
But our offense is equally a mess and so if we start tinkering with where guys are playing, does that make things even worse.
Given how our season is going, trying anything different with our lineup is worthwhile in my opinion. Would like to see more Walz and Beagle playing together. Even having a bigger lineup of AP, Beagle/Nescovic, & Walz/Beagle during the games.
 
If ever a team needed to play a zone to hide defensive issues, this is that team. Playing man defense with Roche, Dusan, Beagle and Walz - I can't fathom how many open 3s there would be using simple ball screen action, and that's after watching Auburn take about 20 wide open 3s.
 
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If ever a team needed to play a zone to hide defensive issues, this is that team. Playing man defense with Roche, Dusan, Beagle and Walz - I can't fathom how many open 3s there would be using simple ball screen action, and that's after watching Auburn take about 20 wide open 3s.
Was thinking it might be time to try a basic zone. But, I don't know what could help our offense, which is by far our biggest problem.
 
also, perhaps some of the video clips from the offseason where we saw Graham scoring on drives to the hoop in practice a lot, now make more sense?
Good point. I know last offseason, we would see clips in practice of Noyes, just sliding next to Dji or Bigs going directly to the hoop. I think even sman pointed it out. And voila, Noyes did not have the ability to beat guys off the dribble or keep guys in front of him. Yes, how quick did Graham look against D2 pickle university. Not very. So who the hell was guarding him in the practice clips :)
 
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If it’s you 05, you are one of my heroes! You are a well educated Spider who was taught well, aways question authority, especially when the emperor wears no clothes. Raising a beer for you tonight!
How was he allegedly threatened and if so why didn’t he go public?

Yes mite it was 05. But just to clear up this was only speculation by me. However the billboard was up all of 1 day. personally I was opposed to billboard for fear of admin digging in but i respected the billboarders proactiveness. I've heard 2nd or 3rd hand they took some hits & pressure tactics by UR. I think some of that is straight from this message board. & the billboard coming down in 1 day would support.

My speculation was Petition Guy took some similar heat and that is why later on he tried to protect Mooney and/or the player's parent from themselves. and virtuous GKiller got caught in the crossfire.

Also go ZONE coach Mooney. Call up Beilein and ask him about the 1-3-1.
 
Was thinking it might be time to try a basic zone. But, I don't know what could help our offense, which is by far our biggest problem.
offensively, we desperately need AP to start performing. or stop shooting. one or the other.
his eFG% is brutal.

defensively, I worry our lack of foot speed might even show worse in a zone. at least in man you can stay near your guy. in a zone you have a lot of ground to cover against good teams.
 
some teams get lazier against zones though and just launch 26 foot 3s nonstop.

Also, zone might help some of the guys out with the rotational issues plaguing the defense. All the scrambling after screens as guys try to figure out their coverages, etc. Simplify everything with a 2-3 zone.

sman, we also haven't exactly been staying near our guy in man defense.
 
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some teams get lazier against zones though and just launch 26 foot 3s nonstop.

Also, zone might help some of the guys out with the rotational issues plaguing the defense. All the scrambling after screens as guys try to figure out their coverages, etc. Simplify everything with a 2-3 zone.

sman, we also haven't exactly been staying near our guy in man defense.
might be right. but there's a reason almost nobody runs a 2-3 at this level. you can't cover. and it makes rebounding really hard. this isn't high school.

and yeah I know ... Syracuse. but they always recruited with that defense in mind. crazy athletic and long at most spots on the court.
we're not.
 
Yes mite it was 05. But just to clear up this was only speculation by me. However the billboard was up all of 1 day. personally I was opposed to billboard for fear of admin digging in but i respected the billboarders proactiveness. I've heard 2nd or 3rd hand they took some hits & pressure tactics by UR. I think some of that is straight from this message board. & the billboard coming down in 1 day would support.

My speculation was Petition Guy took some similar heat and that is why later on he tried to protect Mooney and/or the player's parent from themselves. and virtuous GKiller got caught in the crossfire.

Also go ZONE coach Mooney. Call up Beilein and ask him about the 1-3-1.
The internal clapback from the administration is real. Their decisions can't stand on their own merits, so they will do everything they can to attack the messenger personally. That is the cost you will bear if you mount some type of external organized pressure to the regime.
 
Yes mite it was 05. But just to clear up this was only speculation by me. However the billboard was up all of 1 day. personally I was opposed to billboard for fear of admin digging in but i respected the billboarders proactiveness. I've heard 2nd or 3rd hand they took some hits & pressure tactics by UR. I think some of that is straight from this message board. & the billboard coming down in 1 day would support.

My speculation was Petition Guy took some similar heat and that is why later on he tried to protect Mooney and/or the player's parent from themselves. and virtuous GKiller got caught in the crossfire.

Also go ZONE coach Mooney. Call up Beilein and ask him about the 1-3-1.
I wonder, if I put up a billboard in late February congratulating Mooney on 2024-2025 COY, what percentage would be mad, what percentage would laugh, and what percentage would genially congratulate him?
 
Yes, Grant spearheaded it.

But yeah, a similar 2024–25 billboard would raise some eyebrows lol.
I mean Grant/TJ did this as payback for the original billboard, even put it in the same location. I give them them credit for some A plus trolling. A mocking Mooney COY at the same location this year would certainly then troll the original troll.
 
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We lack athleticism. We also lack effort and concentration. But my biggest issue has been the coaching.

A couple examples:
  1. In an earlier game this year, we were clearly drilled in practice to have the strong side guy guarding a wing help on a dribble drive from the top of the key. If the driver kicked to the wing player, the plan was clearly for the guy guarding whomever was in the corner to slide up one, leaving the guy wide open in the corner. The defender giving the initial help would then have to scramble to the guy in the corner. The result was about 15 open shots from the corner or drives from the corner. I think we got lucky in that the opponent missed a number of the shots, but they were wide open chances.
  2. Our weak side wing defender is constantly overhelping into the lane, leaving a simple cross-court kick pass for wide open threes. It's abysmal. There's no way there should be two feet in the lane. You simply can't get there in time, and even if you do, the close out is completely out of control, and then its scramble-rama time.
  3. Last game, the concerted effort to double Johnni Broome, sometimes with Mikkel Tyne, which was never going to be effective. Ever. Broome could be kneeling and still pass it over Tyne.
I just don't have a lot of hope in any of it -- the players aren't good defenders (excluding DeLonnie and Mikkel on-ball defending, which I think is good), they don't appear to have the attitude to be or become good defenders, and they are being coached to a scheme that exacerbates rather than masks the deficiencies.

It's not great to be back in 2018/2019. And even then, I liked what I saw from Buck, Sherod, Gilyard, and Golden and had hope for the future. I really don't know who the good players are on this team. And I don't love the tape on the incoming class either.
 
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might be right. but there's a reason almost nobody runs a 2-3 at this level. you can't cover. and it makes rebounding really hard. this isn't high school.

and yeah I know ... Syracuse. but they always recruited with that defense in mind. crazy athletic and long at most spots on the court.
we're not.
Rebounding? What's that?
 
I think Mooney said with Soulis back now, he might try and go with 2 big men, so we will see. The issue that I think this bring to the table is while that might make us better on defense, Walz and Beagle both play the 5 out of the high post on offense. So, one of them would have to play out of their natural position on offense. I would hope that would be Walz, I want him down low and out of the high post where he is not much of a threat outside of an occasional back door cut.

But our offense is equally a mess and so if we start tinkering with where guys are playing, does that make things even worse.
Beagle has small hands. Last thing I want him doing is touching the ball a lot and passing out of the high post. Put Walz there if you care about ball security.

Neither is a particularly good passer but I’d rather see beagle post up although his No Look Hook makes me cringe.
 
Beagle has small hands. Last thing I want him doing is touching the ball a lot and passing out of the high post. Put Walz there if you care about ball security.

Neither is a particularly good passer but I’d rather see beagle post up although his No Look Hook makes me cringe.
agreed. Beagle has a better low post game anyway. not sure what Walz' strength is on the offensive end.
I'm not saying this lineup is going to "wow" on the offensive end. but AP is shooting 21% from 3 and 33% from 2. that's tough to overcome.
 
Well we have 3 home games and one very near away game left to try to figure something out before conference play starts. Doubt the coaching staff has it in them though.
Other than Moon trying different lineups, what else has he done differently this year? He’s pretty much wedded to his system. 20 years of very little adaptation.
 
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agreed. Beagle has a better low post game anyway. not sure what Walz' strength is on the offensive end.
I'm not saying this lineup is going to "wow" on the offensive end. but AP is shooting 21% from 3 and 33% from 2. that's tough to overcome.
AP shooting is bad fo sho. Let him rebound, I don’t think his D is awful. I have no idea where the upgrade is. Tanner hasn’t shown it, maybe Dusan. At least Roche hits threes.
 
Beagle has small hands. Last thing I want him doing is touching the ball a lot and passing out of the high post. Put Walz there if you care about ball security.

Neither is a particularly good passer but I’d rather see beagle post up although his No Look Hook makes me cringe.

small hands may be your new flying dutchman. I'm not disputing this btw but have u measured this or shook his hand?
 
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Sidebar: is it just me or does this feel like a painfully long break between ooc home games? I don’t ever recall 24 days between home games.

Maybe I’ve been sniffing too much glue.
 
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