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Genuinely asking here, do you base these statements under anything evidence based or just a feeling?
The evidence I base my thinking on is the commitment we have shown in excelling in the A10 as evidenced by our results (see above), the 10s of millions we have put in our basketball program, our president’s statement of benefit of high level athletics to a university over the summer, and JOC writing an article affirming our continued determination to commit to A10 basketball, paying $1-3 million a year now with the new house settlement. When the evidence changes, my opinion will change. Right now there is nothing I see to think we not only want to succeed in the A10, but we are doing so holistically. Even men’s basketball has had 2 championships the past 3 years under Hardt’s leadership.
What are you basing your rational off of?
Well, we did just move to the Patriot League for football. So there’s that.
Our two most followed/highest attended sports are mens basketball, and football. Football stepped down to Patriot League, even though some success last season, seems likely to be a step back in national relevance. Men's basketball, Hardt is woefully behind the times in every little thing he does, with a coach that is super mediocre.
Schools that REALLY care about how they do in basketball do more than spend money and act like they've shown that dedication. Name another school at our level or higher that would be totally cool dumping tens of millions of dollars into its alleged flagship program and then have a losing season 50% of the time during its most recent 8-year period, the way we now have? So the administration, if it chooses, can point to all these investments (which are great) but the bottom line is not great and does not indicate a sustainable way forward in this NIL era.
8legs1dream
Graduate Assistant
but but but our women's cross country team was voted top 3 in a preseason poll, ALL IS WELL!!
My statement is about our overall improvement in athletics. Like I mentioned before, basketball is our flagship sport but we do have other sports too. I can understand the perspective many have shared about firing Mooney, I really do, but the comment I am making now about the positive direction our athletic department has gone in, isn't just about Mooney and men's basketball. It also shows our commitment to A10 conference as whole to be as successful as we are in almost all sports. I don't think there is another University in the entire conference that has that kind of success throughout the entire department, except VCU.
Feel free to joke all you want, but I think many of us are glad to see us competing at the top of the A10 with practically all our sports teams. No one is pretending that cross country carries more weight than basketball, but its still nice to see.
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I can understand how one may feel that way on the surface based on that move. But thinking about it more, I believe the move to the Patriot League for football, if anything was to further support our commitment in the A10 for all our sports, mainly basketball. I think it was 97 who said in another thread that football was the sacrificial lamb in a way. I agree with that. The CAA - which is being watered down with the departure of us, Delaware, JMU, and the additions they brought in a league with too many teams already - is opting into the NCAA house settlement. I am willing to bet you the Patriot League is not. I don't think UR wanted to invest any more money in football, especially in a conference they feel is a sinking ship and don't have much say in, than they need to. I think they understand that while football is great at UR, that basketball and our affiliation with A10 is more important. If we are going to continue investing in the A10 and giving the $1-3 million a year Bernadette says our teams will need to compete, costs need to be saved somewhere else.
My only gripe with the move was that we moved now and without W&M/Villanova. But I can see why we moved when we did because of the NCAA house settlement. If W&M and/or Villanova join the conference one day and we schedule good FCS opponents OOC, than the Patriot League will actually be the better decision too.
Correct but why does us not having fired Mooney detract from my statement in any way? Our commitment is there in terms of money, resources, opting into NCAA house settlement. You may think that the way we are spending our money for a coach who has a 55% win rate is foolish and we can ultimately do better to get greater return in the value of investments we are making in men's basketball. I totally get that perspective, but I think the statement of 1) UR is committed to excellence in the A10 and our sustained success in all our sports, financial investments, and actions have all supported that notion and 2) We are not getting a good enough ROI from Mooney who isn't capitalizing on the investments we are making for men's basketball, are not mutually exclusive of one another.
Is UR basketball really committed to excellence?
I'll see you at the A10 Women's track and field championship this weekend in Va. Beach.
Our minor sports have historically been solid. Some ebbs and flows and maybe we're at a bit of a higher point right now, but I'm not sure whether things have been elevated all that much under Hardt. They were already good.
I was just responding to the part of your comment that referenced all the investments we have made in basketball and suggested that's why we are likely to stay in the A10. I don't view them as investments with a true endgame in place, other than for us to be able to say "Hey, we're really serious about basketball -- just look at how much money we're spending!" instead of "Hey, we're really serious about basketball -- just look at how much winning we are doing on the court!"
We can spend lots of money in any league, it doesn't have to be the A10. If winning in basketball and making the NCAAs somewhat regularly were our endgame, we'd do more of that. We know our administration over the years has always preferred the idea of being with similar schools academically, and the Patriot League offers that. Will we move there for all sports? I have no idea, but it seems a lot more possible now than a few years ago, especially after hearing the language we used when we moved football there.
And tbh, we probably might as well, because the only way we can make the NCAAs out of the A10 at this point is to win the tournament anyway, so we might as well try doing that against fewer (and worse) teams every year in the Patriot.
Women's basketball has never been this good. I don't remember the last time our baseball team was picked 1st in the preseason poll. I think it was the first time since 2005 or so, we had won 5 conference trophies in 1 year. Even sports that have historically been good like women's lacrosse, could go awry with the wrong hires and I think he did a good job with Harrington for lacrosse who has won back-to-back championships. Men's lacrosse is at highest ranking ever, #10 in USA magazine poll, so we must be doing something right in supporting Chemotti and the program to continue to have sustained excellence. Our field hockey team used to be a top program like 2 decades ago, and first year coach Loncarica showed promise in restoring that winning 11 games for first time in 5 years.
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8legs1dream
Graduate Assistant
If the point you're making is that our investments in men's basketball aren't returning results as good as it could/should be, then I think it's a fair one, even if there are aspects about that I disagree with and believe there's more nuance. Still, there is a commitment there, even if the ways we are showing that commitment isn't what many here agree with (i.e. continuing to employ Mooney as our coach). But I can appreciate, and agree with, your mentality of constantly wanting to achieve excellence in the things we are committed to.
Yeah, that is part of the point, but the bigger part in the context of this discussion is that nothing about the money we are spending on men's basketball should be viewed as locking us into the A10 forever. In fact, I think just the opposite. Someone in the athletics administration is not stupid and must (soon?) come to the conclusion that since we are committed to spending all this money regardless, shouldn't we do whatever we can do to maximize it? Do we stand a better chance of randomly earning an autobid the NCAAs from the 15-team A10 that includes a team we can't beat or surpass that also happens to be located in our own city, OR from the (with us added) 11-team Patriot League that includes a bunch of small fries like Colgate and Lafayette?
I mean, this is so stupidly easy, even Mooney should agree with it.
I mean, this is so stupidly easy, even Mooney should agree with it.
The university doesn't operate in a vacuum though. I have no idea if the administration within the University has that commitment intrinsically, or if its motivate by larger factors such as: recognizing that many big donors are fans of sports, a lot of donations go to sports, many fans in the community go to the games, a better team means the university can reach more national exposure and garner more attention, etc. So I don't think the administrations will ever come to the conclusion that it's better to drop conferences to better maximize the value, because a lot of those others factors will also drop.
Plus, who is to say that if we went to Patriot League we would have better chances of an an auto bid? Players will transfer and we won't be recruiting A10 level players anymore. Heck, we don't even have many A10 caliber players on our roster right now and we lost to a bad Bucknell team this year, lol. So in reality, we could easily just become a middle-of-the pack Patriot League team in this scenario too. So that logic doesn't hold in my opinion.
Mooney would be mediocre in the Patriot League just as he is in the A-10, agree with that. Also agree that we lack A-10 caliber players on the roster. I think our roster this year would finish in the lower half of the Patriot League.
One question, not meant to be snarky. Did you do some comparison to quantify if these are all improvements since Hardt has been here?
Just curious because you’re making it declarative but I only see the analysis for the last few years but not necessarily for all seven years he’s been here, and not as a comparative for the 7 years preceding his tenure.
Did you check that by chance or are you just presuming it’s been better? Again, meant sincerely. I don’t particularly like the guy but I have an open mind if it’s factual.
I could see Villanova deciding to avoid any additional investment in football if the CAA goes that route and staying “all in” on basketball and the rest of the Big East sports. W&M could decide to go the “academics first” route and end up in the Patriot for all sports, but that would be somewhat of a 180 as they are starting to invest in and around Kaplan. It is going to be interesting to see how everything plays out over the next few years.
As far as Richmond’s strategy concerning sports, apparently the credo is don’t let anyone know what you are thinking. Outsmart your fan base and keep communications to a minimum.
I have not done a 20 year side-by side analytical data comparison of performance if that is what you're asking, but I have been following Richmond sports for over a decade now and am well versed in general Spider history when making the claims. You and other are right when pointing out that we have had several sports that have always been historically successful.
The way I see it is other than Women's swimming and diving and women's tennis (these have gotten comparatively worse to how it used to be but still competing among the top of the A10), every other sport is either at the same level as before or better. Even with field hockey that used to be very good in the early 2000s, we have had over a period though of not being that good and now we are trending back in the right direction. Sports like women's soccer has never been good and still isn't.
The fact that programs like women's lacrosse and men's lacrosse have been good and still are good, is also a testament to AD leadership. We could've hired the wrong coach for women's lacrosse and gone immediately down hill. Our men's lacrosse team has received the support its needed to be among the top in the country every year and even reaching its highest ever ranking this past week. Hardt hired Roussell and under Roussell, we have become one of the most respected mid major programs in the country winning conference championships for the first time since the 90s
Some of what I am saying is also a hunch on how things are trending + data. For instance, in baseball we haven't actually won anything yet. But, we finished 2nd place in Aoki's first year, were 1st in preseason poll in his 2nd year, and have the 60th best class in the country coming in next year. That hasn't happened in a very long time. I wish I could find the email that mentioned how we won 5 conference trophies for the first time in nearly 2 decades or 10 out of the 19 sports teams finishing either 1st or 2nd.
If someone wants to highlight how things were better in the 90s or early 2000s from an athletic perspective, I would genuinely love to hear and have that conversation. But as far as I have been following Richmond sports, I haven't seen us be competitive in nearly all our sports, get as much recognition of success in preseason polls, and win as many conference trophies. In addition to programs that have maintained their historical excellence (e.g. lacrosse) we are also seeing improvement of sports team that have not been good in awhile (e.g. women's basketball, baseball) We already have won 2 trophies this year. This isn't even factoring WBB A10 tournament, A10 men's and women's golf tournament, A10 men's and women's lacrosse regular season + tournament, A10 women's tennis tournament, A10 baseball regular season & tournament. All of these sports we are projected to finish 1st or 2nd preseason poll. That's 10 more A10 trophies that could be realistically won this year too. We could very well shatter last year's record of 5 trophies, which was a first in nearly 2 decades, again this year.
TLDR: Sports that we’ve always been good at, still is the case for the most part. Several programs that have historically been bad have gotten a lot better. We are finishing top of the conference in nearly all our sports and won the most conference trophies for the first time in 2 decades last year, with a chance to break that record again this year.
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Their NCAA tournament appearances and even a couple of wins there to reach the Sweet Sixteen don't count?
You’re right. I’ll amend to say haven’t been good and nearly 2 decades. Also, fun fact our Mens golf team went to the NCAA National tournament in 1999. Our baseball went to super regionals in 2002. Field hockey was dominate in early 2000s.
I am not saying UR athletics has never been good before or we are at our best in school history now. That could be a fun conversation to have. What I do believe is that under Hardt’s leadership, our athletics hasn’t been this good, overall, for awhile and certainly better than how it was under Keith Gill. If I were to say who was the most impactful AD in UR history, I’d probably say Chuck Boone. Fun topic to discuss.
u can always find some achievements but I don't really see much difference on a macro level besides women's hoops. CAA with most olympic sports was a different level, much better harder comp. Btw I can't imagine Chuck Boone cares for Hardt pretentiousness.
Correct. When we made the move to the A-10 it was a MBB move. Most of the Olympic sports, baseball were much stronger in the CAA. I don't know how it is now with the CAA being such a different conference than it was now.
Well, we'd be competing against four fewer teams, for starters. Inherently our odds of an autobid would improve. And if we could find a 6-team league, they'd get even better! Of course I agree that if Mooney were to coach and recruit in the Patriot League, we would eventually be a mid-pack team there too.
I don't think we're getting a major bump in donors or applications by getting our ass kicked regularly in the A10, and given how much we are "investing" (I use that term loosely in this context) in the program, it seems like anyone with a pulse in admissions, athletics or finance at UR would be thinking "Something isn't quite adding up here..."
"I don't think we're getting a major bump in donors or applications by getting our ass kicked regularly in the A10, and given how much we are "investing" (I use that term loosely in this context) in the program, it seems like anyone with a pulse in admissions, athletics or finance at UR would be thinking "Something isn't quite adding up here..."
news.richmond.edu
Applications are at an all-time high.
urnow.richmond.edu
Our last Day of Giving set an all-time record, as did the athletics portion of the campaign.
I AM NOT singling out you specifically when I contend that despite what many profess to believe on this site, our university is not going to hell in a "woke" handbasket. The people running the place absolutely know what they are doing. Our national profile has never been higher, our student body has never been smarter or more accomplished, and our university more accurately reflects modern America than in any time in history.
UR is not the same university I attended from 1972-76. Thankfully so. It's much, much better.
Record Applications Lead to Strong Class of 2028
The University of Richmond is welcoming about 840 traditional undergraduate students to campus for the 2024–25 academic year.
news.richmond.edu
Applications are at an all-time high.
UR Here giving day tops $2.2 million
Annual campaign sets records, including most donors and highest giving ever.
urnow.richmond.edu
Our last Day of Giving set an all-time record, as did the athletics portion of the campaign.
I AM NOT singling out you specifically when I contend that despite what many profess to believe on this site, our university is not going to hell in a "woke" handbasket. The people running the place absolutely know what they are doing. Our national profile has never been higher, our student body has never been smarter or more accomplished, and our university more accurately reflects modern America than in any time in history.
UR is not the same university I attended from 1972-76. Thankfully so. It's much, much better.
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8legs1dream
Graduate Assistant
counterpoint: we ARE getting a major bump in applications by getting our ass kicked regularly in the A10
Maybe, but we had more fun!"I don't think we're getting a major bump in donors or applications by getting our ass kicked regularly in the A10, and given how much we are "investing" (I use that term loosely in this context) in the program, it seems like anyone with a pulse in admissions, athletics or finance at UR would be thinking "Something isn't quite adding up here..."
Record Applications Lead to Strong Class of 2028
The University of Richmond is welcoming about 840 traditional undergraduate students to campus for the 2024–25 academic year.
Applications are at an all-time high.
UR Here giving day tops $2.2 million
Annual campaign sets records, including most donors and highest giving ever.
Our last Day of Giving set an all-time record, as did the athletics portion of the campaign.
I AM NOT singling out you specifically when I contend that despite what many profess to believe on this site, our university is not going to hell in a "woke" handbasket. The people running the place absolutely know what they are doing. Our national profile has never been higher, our student body has never been smarter or more accomplished, and our university more accurately reflects modern America than in any time in history.
UR is not the same university I attended from 1972-76. Thankfully so. It's much, much better.
Increasing applications is certainly preferable to decreasing applications, but it's worth noting much of the rise is happening across the country as students apply to a greater number of colleges on average. Ten years ago, students using the Common App applied to average of 4.5 schools through the platform. It's now approaching 7.
100%. I think my son applied to a dozen. The Common App reason is certainly not going to make anyone's press release. Tho I figured Wood would be aware.
Also, I believe U of R is still test optional. Meaning you are not required to report test scores. Which also drives up apps.
There are several factors that would diminish if we moved all our sports to Patriot League that individually may not be huge, but cumulatively would have a total more negative impact all together.
For one, national exposure. We get more exposure in terms of what is posted by journalists, talked about as a conference, games on national television in the A10, etc. As a university the best way to increase our reputation is to be known by more people. Athletics is the best way to do that. A10 much more so than Patriot League. It is much easier to garner more sustained exposure in the A10 than it is in Patriot League. See teams like Dayton and VCU.
Secondly, fans showing up to the games. Even when we stink like this year, we still have decent turnouts because we’ll play other good teams. Even fewer people will go to a Wednesday night game against 13-16 Holy Cross team. Football is different. Including FBS, the CAA is maybe the 11th-12th best conference and Patriot league is 14th-15th. At that point, the average person doesn’t really care about that difference. The A10 is always 7th-8th best and Patriot league is in the 20s. Much more significant jump.
Third, impact in donations. I absolutely believe athletic department donations will decrease with move to Patriot League. Cooper lost his job 20 years ago for suggesting football move to PL. Alumni will be rightfully pissed. Every year athletics is always #1 in total amount and number of donors. A lot of whom come from former players I’m sure. I don’t think anyone will be happy to see us drop levels. Even big time donors I’m sure will be more upset because there investments are to support our success now, not with lower competition.
Fourth, money. A10 pays more than Patriot League with media contracts. Even in Patriot league, we would still have scholarships and pay travel expenses. If anything, A10 might be cheaper because we have so many teams that are within 4 hour drive. So I don’t see how it would get any cheaper in Patriot League. Plus, while not much, we would get added revenue from ticket sales that would comparatively be greater in A10 than Patriot League.
Fifth, Student experience. Many students like myself want a holistically college experience. It’s fun and there is pride in supporting great teams, while getting a great education on a beautiful campus. That should be our selling point. Get the best of all worlds at UR. That was certainly a factor in my college process and I know for other people too (who went to SEC schools actually).
I don’t believe our application rise has occurred mainly from our sports, but it certainly doesn’t hurt. We’ve also seen the impact other schools have had with applications (see Villanova) with success in sports. While difficult overall, still comparatively easier to achieve in A10 than Patriot league. I am not singling you out here Eight Legger, but that’s why I think it’s so ridiculous to ever even suggest us going to the patriot league for all our sports. There are so many reasons why it would backfire and on top of that is a loser mentality.
Yes, I am well aware of the Common App, my son used it for law school applications. However, it still means a prospective student has to at least be thinking about us as a possible option when clicking the UR box.
8legs1dream
Graduate Assistant
Let's turn Mooner loose for twenty years in the PL and see if he can top his 3 NCAA appearance mark in the A10.
I notice many of you like to make jokes or comment on superficial things I say (calling me John Hardt for using the word holistically. Correcting my phrase of big hat no cattle that one time) rather than comment and have a discourse on the substantive matters of what I am articulating. This is a fun forum that isn’t meant to be serious, relative to all the things that go on in life, and I enjoy posting on here. So I don’t really care either way, but an interesting observation.
Simply not true!
calling me John Hardt for using the word holistically - ME
Correcting my phrase of big hat no cattle that one time - ME
Don't blame the rest of our upstanding posters. Like all our players they are "good guys". I am the guilty one. You owe the board an apology.
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