What???? Aggressive --> at least a step slow on both drives and 3 pt shots. What I saw was simply terrible defense (perimeter and interior) and the metrics/rankings prove it.
Wojcik and Gustavson
- Thread starter LongTimeLurkerFirstTimePoster
- Start date
was talking specifically about playing a step off with the longer 3 point line. no fly byes. if we reduce penetration, Grant won't be forced into tough defensive situations as often.
The solution here is probably NOT to play a step further off anyone with the ball. Leaving that space is often very counterproductive to stopping drives because good players use that space to create momentum and set up moves etc. In fact, this seemed to be part (but only part) of our problems last year with penetration - - - we gave too much room to operate to ball handlers. We need to allow as little space as possible to ball handlers and prevent dribble penetration with our help defense. And that help has to come early, not from in the lane defenders etc. As someone said, our interior guys are NOT rim protectors. As we saw last year, that offered little resistance to dribble drives. So, the extra space will have to be given to off the ball perimeter players. That's a little scary cuse they had plenty of space last year, but I believe we have to start with stopping dribble penetration!! We need to start with getting better at some element of defense. Stopping dribble penetration is the easiest as it can be done with scheme and/or athleticism. We'll need to use scheme. That alone would improve us a bunch, but once you accomplish that, you can try and add another layer etc.
Last edited:
I believe having a 100% steal rate any time the ball gets more than 30" past half court would reduce dribble penetration.we're playing man. you're saying extending man defense further to eliminate space will reduce dribble penetration?
Yup. Extending on ball handlers can do that as opposed to giving them space to operate. And Tony Bennett would 100% agree with that because I have heard him say at seminars etc. Its a tenant of UVA's defense. They pressure the ball, but play off everyone else who is in help position. And yes, they do it ofetn with less athletic players than the man they are covering.. In fact the defense was built specifically for that purpose!we're playing man. you're saying extending man defense further to eliminate space will reduce dribble penetration?
It is really quite simple. Got to pressure the ball, if your not, the player with the ball can do what he likes with ease. Now Bennett's defense is obviously not that simple or everyone would be doing it. But for coach's of Mooney's caliber, increased ball pressure is a good place to start.
that's not why the packline works.
Bennett 100% KNOWS extending on the ball leads to more penetration. that's why he has the other 4 players packing it in to help stop that penetration.
I am quite certain you don't understand the packline. The help defenders are not there because extending on the ball leads to more penetration. They are there because the Number One (with a bullet) thing the packline wants to do is keep the ball out of the lane. The ball pressure AND the help position of off-ball defenders are BOTH intended to prevent penetration. One is not a concession to the other. I can explain this in great detail as I own probably everything ever written about and everything ever filmed on the packline and have attended numerous live seminars with Bennett (both father and son), Mack, Miller and others on the packline. Its the defense I coach for my AAU girls etc. and I can assure you the ball pressure is specifically about preventing penetration. Bennett might literally puke if you told him his ball pressure leads to more penetration and that's why he has position the others where they are.
People pressuring the ball might still get beat (almost certainly because of a bad closeout - - something we perfected last year defensively), but people giving space will also get beat - - and far more often as the skill level of the players rises (i.e. giving space won't hurt you much with 5th graders, but will kill you against top level D1 players).
I am not sure the packline is for us for a bunch of reasons, but I do believe we have to find a defense that takes away something - - even if we have to live with giving up something else. We have to dictate a result - - - "if you are going to beat us, beat us this way, but you aren't going to beat us that way!" - - - and the best pace to start that in my view is with a defense that stops dribble penetration (note for example, that most zones have that as a the principle objective too.).
What defense minimizes inside rebounds? Maybe we start there since it’s historically not among our greatest strengths (acknowledging of course that were way better at def rebounding than off rebounding).
Philly, I absolutely concede that you know more about the packline than I do. and that pressuring the ball COMBINED with all of the help defenders reduces penetration. I'm not arguing anything about help defenders. of course help defenders reduce penetration, whether you extend on the ball or not. I'm arguing because I thought someone said extending and pressuring the ball alone reduces penetration.
you obviously played. tell me your eyes didn't light up when someone gets up on you too far. pressure Gilyard and he's past you in one step. heck, get up on Grant or Nathan and they should get to the lane ... if help doesn't step in.
you obviously played. tell me your eyes didn't light up when someone gets up on you too far. pressure Gilyard and he's past you in one step. heck, get up on Grant or Nathan and they should get to the lane ... if help doesn't step in.
Guys go by you while you are trying to close the space - - they don't go by you once you have the space closed. A really tight man (where players catch the ball with little or no space) will, by itself, reduce penetration (if it can be executed) even without the help defenders the packline provides. That requires excellent, excellent and athletic defenders who can stay with their man everywhere so they catch with very little space. If you try this, but leave space, people can and will go around you if your closeouts are not good and then help may or may not be available. Good ball pressure (vs. playing off the ball handler) reduces penetration with or without packline like help. Bad ball pressure can give up dribble penetration and when it does, packline style help defense can help stop that penetration (albeit at a cost of giving up more good looks on threes). But the packline accepts this trade off, saying you may beat me, but it wont be with dribble penetration! And then they also work extremely hard at recovering out of help defense to close out on shooters. Bennett told us his team practices closeouts literally every single day because closing out (whether on a ball handler or a shooter) is the single most important thing his players have to do for them to be successful as a team.
What I don't understand is what our defense is actually trying to accomplish. Almost any defense, I can see it and understand their principles and what he defense is trying to do etc. VCU for example is sorta the anti-packline. But I understand what they are trying to do. They are very much trying to pressure the ball handler and the passing lanes at all times ( to generate mistakes, get steals and deflections etc. and wear the other team down with the constant pressure). They are actually willing to give up some layups (something that is sacrilegious in the packline) in exchange for the constant pressure and the turnovers they hope to create (the packiline puts zero emphasis on getting turnovers). But what are we trying to accomplish? I understand we want to switch a lot (although I don't yet understand the principles of when we switch and when we don't) but don't understand what we are trying to accomplish with the switches. I know CM says we switch to get the best match-ups (that's clearly is not working for the last few years). But once we have these favorable matchups, what are we trying to do?? It looks very often to me like our players think the point of the defense is to get all their switches right but there is nothing after that as to how to actually defend. I even have a Mooney video on our defense (https://www.championshipproductions...y-Match-Up-Zone-Defense_BD-04381.html?crm=r-1) and went to a few of his sessions at coaching clinics over the years and have no idea what the defense really stands for - - - what are its priorities (aside from switching).
I think our players are almost all defensively challenged (even someone like JG who has the quickness to get steals, but isn't very good quite frankly in one on one guarding or help defense beyond jumping in a passing lane for a steal). Scheme on defense can be used to at a minimum dictate how a team will beat you and additionally to try and let your players do what they might be good at (or at least the least bad at). Our players very much need a good and well taught scheme so that as a team we can be average at least defensively. Hopefully we come up with that this year!!
Thanks for the informative posts Philly. I am not a defensive guru, but my eyes tell me we need a scheme because there are numerous A10 teams that pose matchup problems for the Spiders.
Similar threads
