Soulis hits the portal

[spider23]

Number one, I did not call out 4700 specifically. Just the mooon group think. I guess JB and Tarrant raised my expectations, then having a son that went to SDSU when they had a legendary coach retire. But I digress. Sorry to have expectations.

And yes, Dayton has been butt the last several years, and their fans effing hate the lack of success. But carry on.

 

[GKiller]

Here's something that has to be factored. Mooney is a 20-year coach. 24 really. 4 years left. Look at any sports, pro or college, if u have a 20-year coach at 1 place u r almost always ultra successful. u r exceeding your peers. we are not close.

I've always asked shouldn't our expectations increase for a 20-year coach? The Mooney backers have told me no. Which I don't get.

Dayton has fired a coach in Mooney's tenure. Another coach left because he was hired UP. Mooney was in demand once by bottom P5s. & the current Dayton coach is now on the hot seat. other schools fire their coach or they get hired away for doing really well. we just keep extending the status quo.

the two biggest Mooney backers on here wanted him extended (Fire Bennett Extend Mooney). 1 aspires for us to be in the Big East. tell me how that happens with Moon's results.

And now those same 2 guys would like Mooney's entire roster replaced. But run it back with the same 20-year, 3 ncaa, worst rivalry coach of all time! It defies logic.

 

[plydogg]

I can’t believe we’re still litigating this 5 years later. You guys must be racking up the big bucks in legal fees and billable hours lol.

 

[SpiderAlways]

It's funny the level some will go on here to praise other teams while pissing on ours.

Says the guy who completely disappeared during the season. You are a hoot dude

 

[RichmondNative]

As far as Dayton goes, hasn’t there been talk about Grant being on the hot seat? He has been the coach for 8 years and as has been pointed out Dayton has made the tournament once (2020 is not being counted since there wasn’t a tournament). Even though the last trip was within the last 2 years, Dayton fans are still complaining about the coaching performance. I suppose one could say that Dayton fans are even more disappointed than UR fans as they had the best OOC in the A10 this year and won games and it looked like they had the inside track on an at-large bid. However, the Flyers underachieved in conference play and only had a NIT bid.

Dayton is in a similar boat as UR I suppose in that Grant is “a good guy” and an alum to boot. However, if basketball is treated as the business it now is, he isn’t meeting stated goals.

 

[SpiderTrap]

I do think Grant is on the Hot Seat - but there is one difference between him and Mooney. In Grant's 8 years at Dayton, he has only made 1 NCAA tourney and won 1 game in the tourney. Mooney during that same time (past 8 years) has done the same.

Difference - Grant is winning games at a much higher clip in the A10. His winning percentage over that period is 68% overall and 70% in the A10, while Mooney is just 53% in both League and overall during that same time frame. Dayton has been in the top 4 of the A10 6 of last 8 years, and UR has only been top 2 of the last 8 years. So Grant might be getting a longer leash because he is winning games and is pretty close to getting a bid almost every year. Most years - Dayton has just been 2-3 wins away from a bid. As opposed to the 8-10 wins UR has been away in most of the recent years.

 

[VT4700]

Not praising or pissing, simply calling the reality what it was. Are you suggesting that had Golden, Cayo, Sherod and Gilyard not been on the team in 2022, we would have had a bid that year AND a bid in 2020?

You act like we were the only team that could have its players use an extra year. Unless you can show me the other 360+ teams didn't have a player use a covid year, you continue to reach here. As for 2022, who knows how that would have turned out had no one been able to use the covid year. Not only would our team had been different, but most other teams would have as well. And, since covid players were still used this year, I guess you count no 2 years for any team that has happened the past 5 or even 6 ( since u don't want to count our 2020 year) years for any team? Oh, yeah, except Dayton. LOL. They can count both of their best years. Whatever, EL, keep praising Dayton and keep downplaying us.

 

[97spiderfan]

So maybe that 2019-2020 was a flash in a pan kind of season or Obi was really that good.

Dayton vs George Washington Box Score (PDF) - University of Dayton Athletics

Dayton vs George Washington Box Score (PDF)

daytonflyers.com

2020-21 Men's Basketball Roster - University of Dayton Athletics

The official 2020-21 Men's Basketball Roster for the University of Dayton Flyers

daytonflyers.com

Toppin was the national player of the year that year, so yeah he was that good.

 

[SpiderGuy]

I do think Grant is on the Hot Seat - but there is one difference between him and Mooney. In Grant's 8 years at Dayton, he has only made 1 NCAA tourney and won 1 game in the tourney. Mooney during that same time (past 8 years) has done the same.

Difference - Grant is winning games at a much higher clip in the A10. His winning percentage over that period is 68% overall and 70% in the A10, while Mooney is just 53% in both League and overall during that same time frame. Dayton has been in the top 4 of the A10 6 of last 8 years, and UR has only been top 2 of the last 8 years. So Grant might be getting a longer leash because he is winning games and is pretty close to getting a bid almost every year. Most years - Dayton has just been 2-3 wins away from a bid. As opposed to the 8-10 wins UR has been away in most of the recent years.

Schools like Dayton have expectations and are antsy. We on the other hand, compete and are complacent.

 

[fan2011]

Toppin was the national player of the year that year, so yeah he was that good.

Dayton was a legit 1 seed and a championship contender, truly a once in a lifetime season for that school. Covid canceling that tournament was really unfortunate for them.

 

[spiderstudent17]

Here's something that has to be factored. Mooney is a 20-year coach. 24 really. 4 years left. Look at any sports, pro or college, if u have a 20-year coach at 1 place u r almost always ultra successful. u r exceeding your peers. we are not close.

I've always asked shouldn't our expectations increase for a 20-year coach? The Mooney backers have told me no. Which I don't get.

Dayton has fired a coach in Mooney's tenure. Another coach left because he was hired UP. Mooney was in demand once by bottom P5s. & the current Dayton coach is now on the hot seat. other schools fire their coach or they get hired away for doing really well. we just keep extending the status quo.

the two biggest Mooney backers on here wanted him extended (Fire Bennett Extend Mooney). 1 aspires for us to be in the Big East. tell me how that happens with Moon's results.

And now those same 2 guys would like Mooney's entire roster replaced. But run it back with the same 20-year, 3 ncaa, worst rivalry coach of all time! It defies logic.

I’ll break some of it down at least with my reasoning.

1. The increase of expectations with 20 year coach.
- If you mean that I think now just because Mooney has been here 20 years it means we should be making finals fours, then no. That’s a lot to ask at this level in terms of increasing success. Especially considering mid majors are being squeezed out by P5s. My expectations are the same which is make NCAA once every 4-5 years. In a way, achieve a Bob Mckillop level of success in consistency. I think he is a good comparison. Did very well at Davidson. Was there a very long time, but it’s not like he ended with Davidson being a perennial powerhouse if his expectations should have increased throughout his tenure.

2. Mooney’s expectations specifically.
- I have repeatedly stated, and don’t want to quote VT but also believe was mentioned by him too, that we would have certainly been okay firing Mooney after 2018-2019 season. He was not fired though. A lot has changed in basketball since then. Coaches are evaluated on shorter window time spans. Some programs like NC State will fire a coach one year after a final four. Other programs like Davidson and St. Joe’s will give their head coaches longer leashes too. UR sides with the latter. I think 5 years is a certainly reasonable window. These past 5 years overall have been a net positive.

3. Wanting a new roster but keeping the same coach.
- We have seen Mooney and staff recruit transfers well, just 2 seasons ago. So we know they are capable of doing it. The question is how frequently. The jury is still out on that one, but Mooney still gets the benefit of the doubt for now on being able to bring in a roster that wins at an A10 level. VT mentioned when asked, that we should see how this year goes and get back to him after next season for his evaluation. I agree with that stance. In the meantime, we know that this team is not going to make a significant improvement on their own in 1 year to get to the level of A10 winning that we want, hence seeing what new guys can bring.

 

[spiderstudent17]

Not sure why you are drawing the line at "he could have come back." The point is that he did not come back because he was a national POY candidate, and obviously they were not as good a team without him, which should go without saying They clearly had an NCAA bid taken from them because of covid in 2020. We may or may not have, but since all our meaningful players got an extra year, we were able to realize our NCAA bid potential two years later whereas they were not.

By that logic, then should every season from 2021-2022 through 2024-2025 not count? Because players who were on a roster 2020-2021 were granted the additional COVID eligibility year and the last of that bonus year eligibility was this season. It’s just more apparent since the guys on our roster who used it happen to be in their 4th or 5th year. However, there were also freshmen, sophomore, and juniors that also used that bonus year through this season. So if a team this year has a bunch players on it that happen to be 5+ year guys because they used their COVID eligibility like VCU did with their roster this year, does that discount the championship they won? By the same logic, they would have never been in this position to begin with if it weren’t for the COVID bonus year.

 

[SpiderRick]

I have given Mooney credit for being a decent recruiter. But he's still the same sideline coach, poor in-game adjustments, never changing inflexible schemes, forgetting to play players (by his own admission MANY times), yanking players out of the game for making mistakes, not knowing the rules of the game, and on and on.

 

[SFspidur]

Count both 2020 and 2022 or not, count regular seasons that flop in the postseason or not. Decide for yourself how you want to view it.

But looking at it...holistically – Are we satisfied with the overall body of work over the past 20 years and do we like the current trajectory of the program? The answer to both of those questions is no for me.

 

[Spiders4ever]

Would you rather have Grant or Mooney coaching the Spiders?

Thanks

 

[GKiller]

Says the guy who completely disappeared during the season. You are a hoot dude

vt4700 - why r u pissing on our teams?

also vt4700 - I wish all our players would transfer

 

[gcarter52]

vt4700 - why r u pissing on our teams?

also vt4700 - I wish all our players would transfer

He is a troll!

 

[plydogg]

He is a troll!

I’ve disagreed with him a lot but VT is not a troll. The guy gets backed into a corner 8v1 and no matter what he says it gets picked apart. Hard to blame him for not coming around for a daily bashing during this crappy season.

I think the anger at Mooney gets misdirected at any Mooney defender (I used to be one) because we’re all pretty pissed at this crappy season. VT is not the problem…

 

[GKiller]

He is a troll!

do u think it's the VT thing? idk gcarter u would have to ask him.

 

[GKiller]

1. The increase of expectations with 20 year coach.
- If you mean that I think now just because Mooney has been here 20 years it means we should be making finals fours, then no. That’s a lot to ask at this level in terms of increasing success. Especially considering mid majors are being squeezed out by P5s. My expectations are the same which is make NCAA once every 4-5 years. In a way, achieve a Bob Mckillop level of success in consistency. I think he is a good comparison. Did very well at Davidson. Was there a very long time, but it’s not like he ended with Davidson being a perennial powerhouse if his expectations should have increased throughout his tenure.

nobody likes to sift deep into garbage so let's just touch the top.

who is saying Final 4's? quite a leap. strawman.

take away even the NCAAs (which is #1)...but take it away & how about minimally idk being more consistent, not having 40% of your seasons being .500 or lower, use 20 year connections to get into better MTEs, not going into your 21st year w your most ardent backers wanting to replace the entire roster & have everyone transfer out, being able to win more than 25% of your games against your intra conference intra city rival. holy smokes...yeah I meant we should be in Final 4s by now.

 

[Eight Legger]

I’ll break some of it down at least with my reasoning.

1. The increase of expectations with 20 year coach.
- If you mean that I think now just because Mooney has been here 20 years it means we should be making finals fours, then no. That’s a lot to ask at this level in terms of increasing success. Especially considering mid majors are being squeezed out by P5s. My expectations are the same which is make NCAA once every 4-5 years. In a way, achieve a Bob Mckillop level of success in consistency. I think he is a good comparison. Did very well at Davidson. Was there a very long time, but it’s not like he ended with Davidson being a perennial powerhouse if his expectations should have increased throughout his tenure.

2. Mooney’s expectations specifically.
- I have repeatedly stated, and don’t want to quote VT but also believe was mentioned by him too, that we would have certainly been okay firing Mooney after 2018-2019 season. He was not fired though. A lot has changed in basketball since then. Coaches are evaluated on shorter window time spans. Some programs like NC State will fire a coach one year after a final four. Other programs like Davidson and St. Joe’s will give their head coaches longer leashes too. UR sides with the latter. I think 5 years is a certainly reasonable window. These past 5 years overall have been a net positive.

3. Wanting a new roster but keeping the same coach.
- We have seen Mooney and staff recruit transfers well, just 2 seasons ago. So we know they are capable of doing it. The question is how frequently. The jury is still out on that one, but Mooney still gets the benefit of the doubt for now on being able to bring in a roster that wins at an A10 level. VT mentioned when asked, that we should see how this year goes and get back to him after next season for his evaluation. I agree with that stance. In the meantime, we know that this team is not going to make a significant improvement on their own in 1 year to get to the level of A10 winning that we want, hence seeing what new guys can bring.

McKillop had a career winning percentage of almost 63%. Mooney literally would have to win his next 120+ straight games to reach that percentage (do the math).

 

[plydogg]

nobody likes to sift deep into garbage so let's just touch the top.

who is saying Final 4's? quite a leap. strawman.

take away even the NCAAs (which is #1)...but take it away & how about minimally idk being more consistent, not having 40% of your seasons being .500 or lower, use 20 year connections to get into better MTEs, not going into your 21st year w your most ardent backers wanting to replace the entire roster & have everyone transfer out, being able to win more than 25% of your games against your intra conference intra city rival. holy smokes...yeah I meant we should be in Final 4s by now.

At this point I would just take Final 4 of the A10 tourney

 

[VT4700]

I’ve disagreed with him a lot but VT is not a troll. The guy gets backed into a corner 8v1 and no matter what he says it gets picked apart. Hard to blame him for not coming around for a daily bashing during this crappy season.

I think the anger at Mooney gets misdirected at any Mooney defender (I used to be one) because we’re all pretty pissed at this crappy season. VT is not the problem…

Surprised to see he posted I was troll. I didn't think he was against me like most on here are. Oh well, no worries. But, yes, I was as frustrated as anyone with this year's team and have said numerous times the roster was 100% on Mooney.

 

[GKiller]

At this point I would just take Final 4 of the A10 tourney

Lol maybe that’s what spiderstudent17 meant. I think we’ve made the holy grail of the A10 semifinals 4 times in Mooney’s entire tenure. Maybe 5. Amazing. At little ol’ Richmond.

 

[plydogg]

@spiderstudent17 did you graduate in 2017? I was a 2016 grad, wondering if we may have known each other. There has to be a 100% chance we ran into each other at some point. I was at every game in those bottom bleachers for 4 years with one exception (Vs Miami in the NIT - and we don’t talk about that game)

 

[MrTbone]

Surprised to see he posted I was troll. I didn't think he was against me like most on here are. Oh well, no worries. But, yes, I was as frustrated as anyone with this year's team and have said numerous times the roster was 100% on Mooney.

I think you’re entitled to your position as much as anyone is. I just don’t get excited about another two year wait to maybe but probably not be relevant.

 

[gospidersgo]

Regarding VT4700: when you hold the position that Mooney is a quality coach and the right one to lead our program, yet he just won less than 1/3 of his games in year 20 with a veteran roster and butter soft schedule AND you are advocating for a most of the roster to transfer out --- you can't be surprised that most lifetime Spider fans question this line of thinking. This is a message board so expect your views to be challenged, especially given the current state of the program. I don't like personal attacks, but calling another fan's stance crazy is not personal, that's just message board banter.

Ultimately, the program trajectory is not good, and it needs to be.

 

[kneepadmckinney]

Dayton also had the chance to somewhat run it back with Obi returning and he chose to leave. Not our problem if that happens. Our guys could’ve left too. Granted, not the NBA but definitely other P5. Yet we didn’t. Everyone was also operating under the same rules of COVID eligible bonus year and we ended up winning. That deserves credit too.

For the record, I agree with this. Our guys stayed and ran it back, and their guys did not.

I am of the camp that we don't get to count both 2020 and 2021 as NCAA tournament years, because if the first happened the second would not have. But the second did happen because our guys stuck together and stuck it out. Dayton's guys broke up.

 

[Gallipoli]

Number one, I did not call out 4700 specifically. Just the mooon group think.

Censorship by any other name is still censorship. There is no reason to attack another over whether he thinks Coach Mooney should remain as coach. The Fire Mooney Mafia Era taught us that the extreme passions led to excesses and to a national embarrassment of our school.

Coach Mooney has a contract. The school will not remove him.

 

[spider23]

Not making sense Gallipoli. Do agree with GK's assessment, a certain poster defends Mooney, but also wants all his players in the portal. Make it make sense. You are are right on Mooney, he will never be removed. It seems like a scenario from the book "Catch 22". You can't fire him, because Richmond does not fire coaches under contract. His contract never runs out b/c when you check how many years left it already has been extended no matter the circumstance or if their is an iterim AD. Wild, but tis the culture of Richmond basketball.

 

[Eight Legger]

Would it have made a difference for you if we were a lock in the NCAA tournament like Dayton was, but we never got to play an NCAA tournament game. Would you have counted this as an NCAA tournament appearance in your eyes if that were the case?

The two situations are different. We had the same group of players both years, Dayton did not. So no, it wouldn’t make me look at it differently.

I don’t know why it’s such a difficult concept: if there had been no covid, none of our main guys would have been on the roster in 2022, so we would not have made the tournament that year. Hopefully we would have made it in 2020, though that was far from certain. Regardless, there’s no way we could have made the tournament both years with those same guys.

Dayton didn’t get to bring their same team back after 2020, so they get credit for the 2020 run they had, which clearly was a tournament-worthy one.

 

[spiderstudent17]

The two situations are different. We had the same group of players both years, Dayton did not. So no, it wouldn’t make me look at it differently.

I don’t know why it’s such a difficult concept: if there had been no covid, none of our main guys would have been on the roster in 2022, so we would not have made the tournament that year. Hopefully we would have made it in 2020, though that was far from certain. Regardless, there’s no way we could have made the tournament both years with those same guys.

Dayton didn’t get to bring their same team back after 2020, so they get credit for the 2020 run they had, which clearly was a tournament-worthy one.

I understand the concept. But the same thing could be said for years 2023, 2024, and 2025 since there were still players using the Covid eligibility bonus years for these seasons. So my question is whether teams who won stuff now like VCU with 5+ year players in part due to the Covid eligibility bonus should count it or not. Since, if there was no Covid they wouldn’t have had this roster and been in this position today. So saying you can only count either 2020 or 2022 but not both, also applies to seasons 2023-2025. So I’m wondering whether you hold that same stance or not.

 

[spiderman]

I don't understand this never ending argument.
19-20 was a great season. it's not a tournament appearance because there was no tournament ... but yes it would have been. only way it wouldn't would be with a 1st round A10 loss. that was unlikely.
20-21 was a good year too. could have been great. it was a messed up year. still, we're not a blue blood who looks down on the NIT.
21-22 was great thanks to an amazing run by Gilyard. we scheduled tough, but lost most of those tough ones. still, that run plus a tournament win makes it a special season. of course Mooney gets credit for that.
this "it wouldn't have happened without Covid" talk is ridiculous. it happened. it happened to every team in the country. Mooney kept our team together. he gets credit.

Mooney hasn't had so much success in his 20 years for people that want him gone to try to fabricate reasons to diminish anything. you have enough ammo already. I always look at it in the present. NCAA wins buy you some time, for sure. but what matters most is 1) what you just did and 2) how does it look going forward. right now we're coming off our worst season since 2007. and if I'm being honest, it doesn't look great for next year ... though we know very little about what we have in the freshmen. we won't be projected to contend.

but we're not firing a guy with 4 years on his contract. that's not even debatable.

 

[SpiderTrap]

I don't understand this never ending argument.
19-20 was a great season. it's not a tournament appearance because there was no tournament ... but yes it would have been. only way it wouldn't would be with a 1st round A10 loss. that was unlikely.
20-21 was a good year too. could have been great. it was a messed up year. still, we're not a blue blood who looks down on the NIT.
21-22 was great thanks to an amazing run by Gilyard. we scheduled tough, but lost most of those tough ones. still, that run plus a tournament win makes it a special season. of course Mooney gets credit for that.
this "it wouldn't have happened without Covid" talk is ridiculous. it happened. it happened to every team in the country. Mooney kept our team together. he gets credit.

Mooney hasn't had so much success in his 20 years for people that want him gone to try to fabricate reasons to diminish anything. you have enough ammo already. I always look at it in the present. NCAA wins buy you some time, for sure. but what matters most is 1) what you just did and 2) how does it look going forward. right now we're coming off our worst season since 2007. and if I'm being honest, it doesn't look great for next year ... though we know very little about what we have in the freshmen. we won't be projected to contend.

but we're not firing a guy with 4 years on his contract. that's not even debatable.

I think I agree with your summary. What I don't like is the people who say UR made two tourneys - 20 and 22. You can't say that and the way you said it probably correct. 20 was a good season, but not a tourney season cause it didn't exist. So you can't say - we would have made it or not made it - no one knows.

22 - UR made the tourney, did extra year from COVID help with that - of course it did, but it could have helped or hurt all other teams as well. So int he history - UR made one tourney in that time - 22. You don't get credit for a tourney that didn't exist.

 

[spiderman]

You don't get credit for a tourney that didn't exist.

agreed. but 19-20 was still a really good season. that doesn't go away.

 

[SFspidur]

Can we call it one tourney-worthy season and one tourney season?

(Yes, we were not a lock for 2020, but I think we would have been in.)

 

[VT4700]

For the record, I agree with this. Our guys stayed and ran it back, and their guys did not.

I am of the camp that we don't get to count both 2020 and 2021 as NCAA tournament years, because if the first happened the second would not have. But the second did happen because our guys stuck together and stuck it out. Dayton's guys broke up.

How do even know the 2nd wouldn't have happened? Everyone's team would have been different. Had our guys all been done with eligibility, we would have had minutes available for good transfers. Why couldn't we have had a year with those new guys in 2022 similar to like we had in 2024? Who knows how everything would have turned out with teams having different players? So, instead of counting 2022 based on what did happen, you are saying to not count 2022 because of what might have happened? Interesting take. By the way, Kansas beat UNC that year for the title. Both teams used players who got the extra covid year. Does that game count? Does Kansas have a banner or did they ignore that year and pretend it didn't happen?

 

[VT4700]

Not making sense Gallipoli. Do agree with GK's assessment, a certain poster defends Mooney, but also wants all his players in the portal. Make it make sense. You are are right on Mooney, he will never be removed. It seems like a scenario from the book "Catch 22". You can't fire him, because Richmond does not fire coaches under contract. His contract never runs out b/c when you check how many years left it already has been extended no matter the circumstance or if their is an iterim AD. Wild, but tis the culture of Richmond basketball.

I will try to make it make sense for you. I said let's give Mooney another year and see where we are next year. I use the recent seasons I enjoyed of 2020, 2022, and 2024 as reasons for that. Yes, I also said I didn't like the roster last year and put 100% of the blame on Mooney. I'm just not ready to fire him over it because I have been happy with some recent success we have had. Not sure why that is so hard to undestand.

 

[VT4700]

I understand the concept. But the same thing could be said for years 2023, 2024, and 2025 since there were still players using the Covid eligibility bonus years for these seasons. So my question is whether teams who won stuff now like VCU with 5+ year players in part due to the Covid eligibility bonus should count it or not. Since, if there was no Covid they wouldn’t have had this roster and been in this position today. So saying you can only count either 2020 or 2022 but not both, also applies to seasons 2023-2025. So I’m wondering whether you hold that same stance or not.

Yep. I wonder the same thing, but get ready for the "that was different" reply. Anything to make us look bad.

 

[VT4700]

agreed. but 19-20 was still a really good season. that doesn't go away.

Exactly. People on here want to ignore 2020 and pretend it didn't happen when talking about successful years we have had. That was one of our best seasons ever, yet if we talk about it on here we get ridiculed.