lol now recruits not joining because of “15 negative people on a message board”. We have really jumped the shark here
Someone had to say it
- Thread starter whamilton19
- Start date
These two stats have nothing to do with the success of our program. Please let me know how many of those 8K are bots — it’s a small enough group you can diligence manually over the course of a few weeks. Suggest you go to each of their pages, look at their pictures and friends, and then make a judgement if they are a real person or bot.
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Dick Tarrant was one of kind. He coached 12 years at UR and made the NCAA 5 years and NIT 4 years. And I believe that was in a time when the NIT and NCAA tournaments were smaller as well.
Why do I think UR should be an NCAA or NIT team 4 out of 5 years. A few reasons.
1) We have shown the ability to do it before - as you have seen with Tarrant, it is possible, and it has been done before. Now - I agree, that was a different time, but if we did it back then - when Tarrant had to win the conference to make it - and with less teams, no reason to think we can't get back there now with more teams and a better conference where we don't need to win it each year.
2) Numbers - 68 teams make the NCAA, and 32 make the NIT - that is 100 teams making, in my opinion, meaningful post-season play. So are we to say we can't consistently be a top 100 team. And I know its more than rankings cause you have auto bids, etc. But as a general rule - I would say if your typically a top 75 team in terms of any ranking (RPI, BMI, Power, whatever you want to use) - you are likely in the mix for NCAA or NIT. There are 358 teams out there, so can we be in the top 20% percent 4 out of 5 years?
3) Been done by schools in same position as us. VCU. They were in CAA, just like us. They are in the same city - Richmond. They move from CAA to A10. Last 10 years - 7 NCAA and 1 NIT. Davidson - they move from an even lower conference - Big South to A10. Small enrollment like UR. Last 10 years - 5 NCAA and 4 NIT. So why are they able to achieve it - with similar moves that we made in conferences, and similar enrollments or cities and we can't???
4) Investment - we have upgraded the Robins Center to one of the best facilities in the league. We have a brand new practice facility. I believe our team charters most away games. We are paying our coaches more than we have ever before. Now - I know much of this is just keeping up with the Jones's of college basketball - but the investment is there. I could argue more could be done from the admission/recruiting side - but that is another topic. Point being - we are not behind right now in the arms race of arenas, practice facilities, and travel.
To the other point, I don't think anyone is saying UR doesn't get credit for the 24-7 season. The issue is - they had a great season cut short that year cause of the Pandemic. Lets assume no pandemic and we make the tourney. Then the NCAA doesn't grant the extra year of eligibility to everyone and we don't have a group of super seniors last year for our NCAA run. So I don';t think its fair to say we made the tourney 2020 and last year. We made one tourney, cause without the extra year - I don't think we make it last year.
So lets start the clock 2 years ago. UR made the NIT in 2021 and the NCAA in 2022. This year - I think with one of the top players in the league and potential NBA player in Burton, and the good year we had with transfer portal - no reason to think this can't be an NIT team. I don't think that is expecting too much. Had this been a normal year where everyone graduated and we had no transfers - I might say this is the year we make nothing, but given we have Burton, Goose and Grace returning (1 star and 2 key role players) and then add in the transfers and Nelson - is it too much to say this should be an NIT team? Is that expecting too much? I don't think so.
Anyone who is a fan of Spider athletics should expect our teams to win conference titles and make NCAA tournament appearances regularly. We have everything necessary to make that happen. Of course it doesn't mean that it will, but that should be the expectation every year, and we shouldn't make a bunch of excuses when we fail to achieve those goals.
Why can't or shouldn't we want to have a Dick Tarrant type coach. The whole mantra of UR is to have the best and brightest minds no matter what disciple they are in. Why is it with college basketball, we are ok, with saying, yeah their certainly are better coaches out, but were just fine and satisfied with the one we have, who is good but not great.
That certainly might be part of the reason we can't attract the best recruits as you indicate we can't to play basketball here, despite all of the high quality amenities we offer them.
I always like data...
- Tarrant made NCAA/NIT 9 out of 12 seasons (75%)
- Dooley made NCAA/NIT 0 out of 4 seasons (0%)
- Beilein made NCAA/NIT 3 out of 5 seasons (60%)
- Wainwright made NCAA/NIT 2 out of 3 seasons (67%)
- Mooney has made NCAA/NIT 7 out of 17 seasons (41%) - giving credit for 2020 since at least NIT was a lock, and I won't asterisk 2022 since he was playing the hand he was dealt with the extra year for guys just like everyone else could
You can certainly say since we've "made" NCAA/NIT the past three seasons that we're currently in a good spot. But at the same time if you want to evaluate Mooney's tenure you have to look at the whole picture, and in my view it definitely comes away lacking given that a big part of our move to the A-10 was to chase more NCAA bids and we haven't succeeded at that.
So the big question is whether our success over the past three seasons was a result of one good class that is now gone, or have we turned a corner as a program and are primed for consistent success? Only time will tell. I will say I feel much better about our recent recruiting than I did 10 years ago the last time we graduated an NCAA class, but we'll see how it plays out on the court.
- Tarrant made NCAA/NIT 9 out of 12 seasons (75%)
- Dooley made NCAA/NIT 0 out of 4 seasons (0%)
- Beilein made NCAA/NIT 3 out of 5 seasons (60%)
- Wainwright made NCAA/NIT 2 out of 3 seasons (67%)
- Mooney has made NCAA/NIT 7 out of 17 seasons (41%) - giving credit for 2020 since at least NIT was a lock, and I won't asterisk 2022 since he was playing the hand he was dealt with the extra year for guys just like everyone else could
You can certainly say since we've "made" NCAA/NIT the past three seasons that we're currently in a good spot. But at the same time if you want to evaluate Mooney's tenure you have to look at the whole picture, and in my view it definitely comes away lacking given that a big part of our move to the A-10 was to chase more NCAA bids and we haven't succeeded at that.
So the big question is whether our success over the past three seasons was a result of one good class that is now gone, or have we turned a corner as a program and are primed for consistent success? Only time will tell. I will say I feel much better about our recent recruiting than I did 10 years ago the last time we graduated an NCAA class, but we'll see how it plays out on the court.
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I personally have reset the clock.
Just looking at past 2 years. We got NIT and NCAA. I think this year is an NIT team, but if we don't make anything - that doesn't mean we need to fire Mooney.
Looking past this year - we lose Burton, Goose, and Grace. But we return Nelson, Roche, Bigelow (does he have 1 more year?), and Quinn as a solid core - then you got Randolph, Bailey, Noyz, and Walz looking to step up and increase their roles and time. I think Nelson is an all-league type player with a year under his belt and no reason Quinn will not continue to develop and acclimate himself to A10 play. So depending on how young guys or other transfers we bring in - I see another potential NIT/NCAA team next season. Still very early to tell, but we have a solid core.
Just looking at past 2 years. We got NIT and NCAA. I think this year is an NIT team, but if we don't make anything - that doesn't mean we need to fire Mooney.
Looking past this year - we lose Burton, Goose, and Grace. But we return Nelson, Roche, Bigelow (does he have 1 more year?), and Quinn as a solid core - then you got Randolph, Bailey, Noyz, and Walz looking to step up and increase their roles and time. I think Nelson is an all-league type player with a year under his belt and no reason Quinn will not continue to develop and acclimate himself to A10 play. So depending on how young guys or other transfers we bring in - I see another potential NIT/NCAA team next season. Still very early to tell, but we have a solid core.
tbf in the 8 years immediately preceding Mooney we had 2 ncaas & 3 NITs. And 1 year we were a surefire ncaa team imo but banned from CAA, but still first team out in a era when CAA just didn't get multi bids. And that was 2 coaches. can't minimize that success given it came a better rate than Mooney. He's got more years on deal so not going anywhere, only saying institutionally we r positioned for many coaches to have success here. The "institution" ironically forgets that tho.
that's just it. looking at the whole picture with a time machine, we could justify letting Mooney go a long time ago. but you make decisions in the present. looking at the current team and the last 3 seasons, most would say he's doing well. you have to go back 4+ years to have reasonable cause.
Agree 100%. I think a lot of people would have liked to see Mooney years ago, and especially after back to back losing seasons of 12 and 13 wins on top of an 8 year NCAA appearance drought. But the administration stuck with him for whatever reason you want to use - and it has paid off in their favor. Since those 2 losing seasons. It has been 3 years and we have been to 1 NIT and 1 NCAA, so that is the recent success I think everyone likes to see.
I have been up and down on the merits of Mooney and we are where we are now. That said, the logic here befuddles me. Essentially to evaluate a UR coach, you wait long enough for a NCAA or NIT to occur? That then invokes the “recent success” clause thereby allowing retention decisions to be made in the present and forestalling action until the next random serendipitous post season event(s?) happens?
8legs1dream
Graduate Assistant
if I made an investment that killed me for 10 years straight then finally recovered slightly in the 11th year, it was a prudent investment?
I had thought the exact same thing you posted. BTW - is that investment Spider Futures?
If our goal is to make the NCAA as frequently as possible. We should join one of the lousiest conferences in division one with 6 to 8 teams. Preferably it would be a league where most of the other schools don’t put a priority on their basketball program and we would only be competing with a couple other schools each year for the conference championship. This strategy should allow us to make the NCAAs every 2 to 3 years and when we upset power conference schools it would be considered a huge upset, where we would be viewed as a Cinderella team. (substandard program that occasionally beats good teams). Tarrant was the best coach so far in the history of the school to date, but Mooney might surpass him before he retires. Mooney has significantly improved over time. The CAA and ECACS were terrible conferences. Case in point, our SRS computer ranking so far this year is higher than any season coach by Tarrant. He is a link to the data: https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/richmond/
I personally would rather play in one of the top conferences in the country, consistently ranked among the top 100 programs, not be considered a Cinderella team and make the NCAA less often. I would be happy to make the NIT or NCAA 60% to 70% of the time.
I personally would rather play in one of the top conferences in the country, consistently ranked among the top 100 programs, not be considered a Cinderella team and make the NCAA less often. I would be happy to make the NIT or NCAA 60% to 70% of the time.
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The A10 has 2 teams formally of the CAA who made the final 4 while in the CAA. Since we're speculating in this thread, I wish there was a way to have Tarrant coach Mooney's teams over the last 17+ years and see how he would have compared.
Personally I would like to see us…
Make the NCAA 35%
Make the NIT 40%
Neither 25%
To do much better than that might take a major shift in priorities.
While I am frustrated by what appears to be an intentional end of game strategy, I‘m not sure in the middle of a season after 3 seasons that total .681 winning percentage is the best time to judge the overall program…
Make the NCAA 35%
Make the NIT 40%
Neither 25%
To do much better than that might take a major shift in priorities.
While I am frustrated by what appears to be an intentional end of game strategy, I‘m not sure in the middle of a season after 3 seasons that total .681 winning percentage is the best time to judge the overall program…
How on earth did it take until page 5 of this thread before SRS made an appearance?
That’s not what he said, he said you don’t get credit for a Covid halted season where objectively no one made the tournament, but also get credit two years later by virtue of having all those guys back for the Covid missed year.
24-7 was a great season, they’re speaking strictly about postseason berths. I don’t think it’s fair to include it or exclude it personally. We went 24-7, awesome, we didn’t go to the tourney, bummer, but no one did.
You would *like* to see us make neither tournament every fourth year?? A pox on you!
Let’s call it unfortunately acceptable in…
1983
1987
1993
1995
1999
2003
2007
2012
2016
2019
I think even in the A10 and lack of consistent appearances in the NCAA tourney - we still are the Cinderella team. We don't drop that name until we make consistent appearances and it becomes normal for us to make the tourney.
not what I said. you should constantly evaluate every coach. what you're always trying to determine is if he's the right guy going forward. people can have different opinions on that, but the past 3 seasons have been pretty successful and the current roster/recruiting continues to look promising.
there was a valid argument to let Mooney go in 2019. there's not a strong argument today.
Agree - the argument was there to let him go after back to back losing seasons, but when they decided to keep him, now you must change your point of view and look at what has he done since then - and since then, we have been right where we should be. 3 seasons. 1 NIT, 1 NCAA. No one will argue with those results.
So far, it has been catching lightning in a bottle, twice. KA the first time and, more recently, an uber-experienced (unlikely to ever be repeated) team that arguably underachieved until the A-10 tournament last year. As I said, we are where we are and I look forward to the past no longer being indicative of the future.
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it was simple, but I disagree with the concept. our team did what was necessary to make the postseason each of the past 3 seasons.
I won't discard 2020 as a non-tournament year as if we went 13-20. we won that year.
we didn't reach our goals in a strange 2021 but still reached the NIT.
then, with the same Covid rules as everyone else and in the biggest transfer freedom year of all time, we stayed together and won.
even if we weren't great every game, we've had 3 consecutive successful season.
LOL, T. Richmond Native said:
"There is no credit for 2020 season."
I say: "Wow. A Richmond fan telling someone there is no credit for our 24-7 season. This board is something else."
You then say: "That’s not what he said". T, that is exactly what he said, word for word with a period at the end. You can try to explain the meaning all you want, but for a Richmond fan to say it that way is ridiculous. And, we don't know what would have happened without covid. Maybe we get "credit" for a sweet 16 or better that year? Maybe we hit the transfer portal hard 2 years ago, go crazy and win the A-10 tourney with new guys in 2022? Who knows? What we do know is 24-7 happened, just like last year happened. For some of our own fans to downplay any of that is sickening.
Learn how to use context. Yes, that is the sentence I used but the point was that in my opinion you cannot say 2020 is an NCAA season because there was NO tournament at all. Plus, last year’s team would not have had all the super seniors IF there wasn’t a Covid year. The simple fact is that you are double counting. So cherry pick all you want, but many people on the Forum knew EXACTLY what I was saying.
Personally, I am going to give us credit for making the tournament again this year, because we clearly would have if there had been a second pandemic that prompted another additional year of eligibility this year.
Mooney called one timeout in the second half as we went from down 7 to 23. Malpractice
Everyone knows timeouts are supposed to be saved to kill momentum after a team scores points to take a lead in the second half, not to stop an opponent’s run. Coaching 101.
As I said above, you Mooney guys amaze me. I’ll add this, so willing to be satisfied with mediocre. Pathetic
I’m trying to process the “going forward” statement. I mean, I get your intent but at some juncture you have to actually look at past performance as a predictor of future results, right?
Further, what’s the going forward bar? After back to back 20 loss seasons, is going forward just a 15 loss season? [I acknowledge that’s not what happened btw].
I guess I hate the “we’ll get ‘em next time” mentality. It feels too often we have hoped things will turn around only to be moderately disappointed. Last year was 100% headed that way until a near miracle happened.
I’m giving CM another chance but it flies in the face of most of the data.
He was talking about the ncaa tournament berth, not the record. You know this.
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