Scrimmage Game with Va. Union

[keefusb]

CM's history has shown that freshman don't usually make a major impact unless there is an injury to an upperclassman, or the alternative is simply not up to the task. K0 was an impact freshman coming off the bench. KA and Dan Geriot were freshman starters primarily because there were no viable alternatives.

I think our starting 5 will be SDJ, TJC, KF, MW, and JJ. Would like to see the freshman play at least 10 minutes each during the non-conference schedule, but unless one of them really steps up and makes it impossible to keep them off the floor, history doesn't favor the freshman starting or getting starters minutes, no matter what their HS resumes look like.

 

[Not-A-Homer]

CM's history has shown that freshman don't usually make a major impact unless there is an injury to an upperclassman, or the alternative is simply not up to the task. K0 was an impact freshman coming off the bench. KA and Dan Geriot were freshman starters primarily because there were no viable alternatives.

I think our starting 5 will be SDJ, TJC, KF, MW, and JJ. Would like to see the freshman play at least 10 minutes each during the non-conference schedule, but unless one of them really steps up and makes it impossible to keep them off the floor, history doesn't favor the freshman starting or getting starters minutes, no matter what their HS resumes look like.

Your stated perspective is absolutely on point. However, if your prediction is accurate (which I believe it is), it will be the latest in a long line of poor decision-making by the coach that negatively impacted team and program success.

 

[fan2011]

CM's history has shown that freshman don't usually make a major impact unless there is an injury to an upperclassman, or the alternative is simply not up to the task. K0 was an impact freshman coming off the bench. KA and Dan Geriot were freshman starters primarily because there were no viable alternatives.

I think our starting 5 will be SDJ, TJC, KF, MW, and JJ. Would like to see the freshman play at least 10 minutes each during the non-conference schedule, but unless one of them really steps up and makes it impossible to keep them off the floor, history doesn't favor the freshman starting or getting starters minutes, no matter what their HS resumes look like.

By my count here are all the freshmen under Mooney who played 10+ minutes a game:

Geriot
Gonzalvez
Brian Morris
Butler
Hovde
KA
Kevin Smith
FCM
Duinker
Ced
TA
DT
TD
ANO
SDJ
KF

The only years under Mooney where we didn't have at least 1 freshmen getting 10+ minutes per game were 2010 and 2015. Mooney plays freshmen when they are the best option. That can happen when an A10 POY caliber player goes down (Ced) opening up time for a freshmen (SDJ) but I don't think Ced should have had his time reduced before he was injured just for a promising freshmen to get some more time.

It seems to me that freshmen tend to get a lot of playing time when we have holes in our roster and bring in recruits that can fill those holes better than the upperclassman. That perfectly describes our situation at the 3 this year, and I expect NS and DMB to get significant playing time because of this.

 

[keefusb]

Point being we have three freshman that many of us have high expectations for, it will be difficult for all of them to get starters minutes unless an upperclassmen gets hurt, or one or more of the three frosh performs like a future hall-of-famer. Keep in mind that 4 or 5 of those listed above were either developmental or medical redshirts, and that previous to about Kevin Smith on that list, we were really looking at many situations where the upperclassman incumbent was not really a viable starter.

Also it would appear that K0 (Kendall Anthony) was left off that list, pretty sure he was more than 10 minutes a game as a freshman, and in my mind, he is a hall-of-fame caliber player.

 

[MrTbone]

Fan2011, what does the list look like when we bump the floor to 20 min per game?

I sort of understand the sentiment here, that essentially Mooney doesn't give our newcomers enough time. Statistics don't bear this out unless those claiming he doesn't play freshmen have some magical threshold that they aren't publicizing.

Do we start many freshmen? No. Should we? Maybe, or maybe this year. Hard to say.

 

[keefusb]

Personally, when Ced was a senior and playing 36+ minutes a game, he might not have gone down like he did if he had his minutes reduced somewhat by playing SDJ a few minutes more a game. We don't generally do a great job developing freshman talent unless said freshman is a Geriot, a Kevin Anderson, or a K0 type of player. I look at the list above and see any number of kids who either never developed to their full potential while here (Duinker, ANO, perhaps TA given his late senior season slide), or even digressed over time (DT, TD).

 

[fan2011]

Fan2011, what does the list look like when we bump the floor to 20 min per game?

I sort of understand the sentiment here, that essentially Mooney doesn't give our newcomers enough time. Statistics don't bear this out unless those claiming he doesn't play freshmen have some magical threshold that they aren't publicizing.

Do we start many freshmen? No. Should we? Maybe, or maybe this year. Hard to say.

If we cut the list down to 20+ minutes a game we end up with:

Geriot
Gonzalvez
Brian Morris
Butler
KA
Kevin Smith
K0
ANO
KF

But 20+ minutes a game is a ton for a freshmen. Last year only 3 coaches in the A10 played a freshmen 20+ a game, one of which was Mooney. If 20+ minutes is the benchmark for playing freshmen a reasonable amount of time then almost no coach in the A10 uses freshmen correctly.

 

[urfan1]

2011, I assume you are saying these players had 10+ minutes in a game. I cherry picked a few players and season averages were not 10 minute + averages.

 

[fan2011]

2011, I assume you are saying these players had 10+ minutes in a game. I cherry picked a few players and season averages were not 10 minute + averages.

For their freshmen year? Which players?

 

[SpiderK]

By my count here are all the freshmen under Mooney who played 10+ minutes a game:

Geriot
Gonzalvez
Brian Morris
Butler
Hovde
KA
Kevin Smith
FCM
Duinker
Ced
TA
DT
TD
ANO
SDJ
KF

The only years under Mooney where we didn't have at least 1 freshmen getting 10+ minutes per game were 2010 and 2015. Mooney plays freshmen when they are the best option. That can happen when an A10 POY caliber player goes down (Ced) opening up time for a freshmen (SDJ) but I don't think Ced should have had his time reduced before he was injured just for a promising freshmen to get some more time.

It seems to me that freshmen tend to get a lot of playing time when we have holes in our roster and bring in recruits that can fill those holes better than the upperclassman. That perfectly describes our situation at the 3 this year, and I expect NS and DMB to get significant playing time because of this.

DB and NS are better than all on that list as freshman. GG won't be far behind.

 

[Spideroldie]

+1 SpiderK. Barring injuries, these guys have all the skills and the other characteristics (effort, motivation, leadership) that make this the best set of incoming freshmen, for any A-10 school, in a LONG time. Past statistics and playing times really need to be forgotten because at least two out of three (and possibly all three) of these guys are ready to play now. And, I am talking 20+ minutes, not 10+.

 

[urmite]

2011, I assume you are saying these players had 10+ minutes in a game. I cherry picked a few players and season averages were not 10 minute + averages.

Just to be clear, are you saying our number of games their freshman year times 10 is more than the total of minutes the freshman player played?

 

[MrTbone]

Just to be clear, are you saying our number of games their freshman year times 10 is more than the total of minutes the freshman player played?

Actually, there's nothing clear about that question/statement mite...

 

[MrTbone]

If we cut the list down to 20+ minutes a game we end up with:

Geriot
Gonzalvez
Brian Morris
Butler
KA
Kevin Smith
K0
ANO
KF

But 20+ minutes a game is a ton for a freshmen. Last year only 3 coaches in the A10 played a freshmen 20+ a game, one of which was Mooney. If 20+ minutes is the benchmark for playing freshmen a reasonable amount of time then almost no coach in the A10 uses freshmen correctly.

Yeah, I'm not suggesting 20+ minutes is reasonable, I think other people think that. As always, your acumen with the intertoobz data proves what I suspected, that we have played freshmen reasonably often at "starter" minutes AND that's uncommon in the A10.

 

[urfan1]

2011 to answer your question, when I cherry picked I looked at a site and recall 2 names, showing Ryan Butler at 7.9; Duniker at about 7 (memory), and Kevin Smith at 7.5. That's all I recall, but when I went looking for the site to link it, I could not find it again, but Fox Sports had some numbers that seemed complete and all 3 names fit your 10+ minutes. So I cannot give you the site I first saw.

 

[urmite]

Actually, there's nothing clear about that question/statement mite...

I was looking for the discrepancy between 2011 and fan1. If we play 33 games, but a player only has minutes in 10 games, some sites take total minutes divided by 10 to get average minutes, others divide by 33.

 

[fan2011]

2011 to answer your question, when I cherry picked I looked at a site and recall 2 names, showing Ryan Butler at 7.9; Duniker at about 7 (memory), and Kevin Smith at 7.5. That's all I recall, but when I went looking for the site to link it, I could not find it again, but Fox Sports had some numbers that seemed complete and all 3 names fit your 10+ minutes. So I cannot give you the site I first saw.

Butler played 25 minutes per game in 2006-07 season, his redshirt freshmen year (he played 14 over two games the previous year before getting injured and redshirting). Duinker played 11.3 in 08/09, but playing time was 7 in 09/10 his sophomore year. Kevin Smith played 21.6 in 07/08, his freshmen year.

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/player/_/id/36083/kevin-smith
http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/player/_/id/41501/josh-duinker
http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/player/_/id/27290/ryan-butler

 

[3genspider]

Maybe too much bourbon at this point after dissappointing fball game, but who is Brian mooris? No way he played 20 minutes a game as freshman, name doesn't ring a bell.

 

[CarolinaSpider]

Maybe too much bourbon at this point after dissappointing fball game, but who is Brian mooris? No way he played 20 minutes a game as freshman, name doesn't ring a bell.

Came in with Geriot's class and transferred to Towson I think after freshmen year with one other Spider.

 

[Marley13]

Had to google him. Even after seeing pics of him I don't remember him.

 

[spider23]

Morris was a skinny kid, great basketball skills and instinct, but probably not the body and athleticism to be a top A10 player. Transferred to Towson, where his brother was an assistant and did OK there.

http://www.towsontigers.com/roster.aspx?rp_id=2556

 

[Marley13]

Wow, his stats freshman year were pretty solid. Of course the team was awful.

 

[MidloTrader]

Well, at least this board didn't implode after a less than stellar exhibition game against VUU. Down Broad St way, they're crying "the sky is falling!!!!" after Rams lost to D-II Queens College in exhibition last Friday.

 

[Ulla1]

Vdu is no good. OSC

 

[97spiderfan]

Personally, when Ced was a senior and playing 36+ minutes a game, he might not have gone down like he did if he had his minutes reduced somewhat by playing SDJ a few minutes more a game.

Yes to this a million times over. CM rode Ced like a damn rented mule that year and SDJ didn't get the time he deserved until Ced inevitably went down with a season ending injury.

The other glaring example in my book was Khwan and Trey. I don't care if Khwan got 20 minutes per game, he was better in pretty much every facet of the game than Trey but Trey still got the starters job and minutes until the very end of the year when the train had gone off the tracks already.

 

[LongTimeLurkerFirstTimePoster]

Yes to this a million times over. CM rode Ced like a damn rented mule that year and SDJ didn't get the time he deserved until Ced inevitably went down with a season ending injury.

Because knee injuries are very easy to predict.

 

[97spiderfan]

Well, they are much more likely when a player has multiple nagging knee injuries throughout the year. It wasn't like his injury was some freak acl injury that came out of the blue to a previously healthy player.

 

[Not-A-Homer]

Well, they are much more likely when a player has multiple nagging knee injuries throughout the year. It wasn't like his injury was some freak acl injury that came out of the blue to a previously healthy player.

Cedrick Lindsey's greatest strength (constantly driving the lane in traffic) facilitated him getting knocked to the floor a lot. He was either knocked down or falling to the floor much more than the average player (even more than Shawndre Jones today). Obviously it is correct to say that one can not predict a knee injury, but it is also on point to say that it should not have come as a great surprise that Cedrick Lindsey lost significant playing time due to injury.

 

[keefusb]

I got totally flamed on this board leading up to Ced's senior season because I said that if he continues his "kamikaze" playing style, he was going to get seriously hurt. I understand that doing that was part of his game, but some discipline could have been forced by CM by limiting his minutes per game to perhaps 32 a game, and having SDJ benefit from the developmental opportunity of 3 to 4 minutes of additional time per game.

 

[fan2011]

Before Ced went down he played 35 minutes per game over 21 games, 4 of which were overtime games. He ended up playing 85% of available minutes before he was injured. KA played a higher percentage of available minutes every single year he was here, including his freshmen season. He played over 90% of minutes available his final 3 seasons! Gonzo, K0 and SDJ all played over 85% of available minutes in at least one season. Yes Ced did play a lot, but Mooney did not work him any more than he worked our other great guards.

In the A10 this year Ced would have ranked 15th in % of available minutes played, other A10 coaches tend to work their good players just as much or more than Mooney worked Ced. It is unfortunate that Ced got injured, and since he did have some nagging injuries it might have been a good idea to rest Ced more, but Ced was not playing seeing some insane amount of court time. He was seeing about the average, or maybe even a little less time, that a team's best guard usually sees.

 

[97spiderfan]

I got totally flamed on this board leading up to Ced's senior season because I said that if he continues his "kamikaze" playing style, he was going to get seriously hurt. I understand that doing that was part of his game, but some discipline could have been forced by CM by limiting his minutes per game to perhaps 32 a game, and having SDJ benefit from the developmental opportunity of 3 to 4 minutes of additional time per game.

Well said, Keef. This is a much better analysis than my riding like a rented mule comment.

The game that I remember most vividly that year regarding Ced and his various injuries was the Wake Forest game.

We were up big, Ced went down in the second half, he came back was clearly hobbled, we isolated him with the ball and told him to make plays to win/ice the game. Game went into OT, Ced continued to play injured, we continued to just put the ball in Ced's hand and hoped he would make the play. He couldn't (most likely because he was hobbled, and we ultimately lost.

That game stood out the most, but Ced was playing hurt almost the entire senior year and as Fan 11 pointed out, we played him 35 minutes per game and as anyone who watched us that year can attest, they were 35 hard minutes.

This wasn't 35 minutes of Deion Taylor's time, where you could hide him on offense and tell him to just pass the ball. No Ced was the key cog of the offense, and if the game was on the line, the ball was in his hands with the expectation that he take and make the shot.

 

[URPike]

Yes to this a million times over. CM rode Ced like a damn rented mule that year and SDJ didn't get the time he deserved until Ced inevitably went down with a season ending injury.

The other glaring example in my book was Khwan and Trey. I don't care if Khwan got 20 minutes per game, he was better in pretty much every facet of the game than Trey but Trey still got the starters job and minutes until the very end of the year when the train had gone off the tracks already.

I am very much looking forward to the start of basketball season. The only downside is that I will read the ridiculous comments on this board that I can't seem to stop visiting. The only fun part is predicting - with great accuracy - what will be written based on who is posting the comment.

 

[keefusb]

I don't think Ced was playing any "insane" amount of time on paper, but given how he played, and how he was playing with injuries much of the time, even fewer minutes than he played, especially in his final season, might have averted the accumulation of injuries, and the final season-ending injury.

 

[LongTimeLurkerFirstTimePoster]

RE: I don't think Ced was playing any "insane" amount of time on paper, but given how he played, and how he was playing with injuries much of the time, even fewer minutes than he played, especially in his final season, might have averted the accumulation of injuries, and the final season-ending injury.


i think this is a ridiculous theory. For the message board police, I'm calling the theory ridiculous, not you.

 

[spiderman]

Ced was a warrior and wanted to be out there. and at 18.3 ppg, he deserved to be out there. SDJ was just a freshman. a good freshman, but not the player Ced was at that time.
the injury was a shame, but it happens. I don't understand blaming it on CM.

 

[Ulla1]

Ced was a warrior and wanted to be out there. and at 18.3 ppg, he deserved to be out there. SDJ was just a freshman. a good freshman, but not the player Ced was at that time.
the injury was a shame, but it happens. I don't understand blaming it on CM.

+1. OSC

 

[MrTbone]

These theories are indeed ridiculous. Many guys play way more minutes than Ced did and didn't/don't have injuries. Conversely, many players play far fewer minutes and come up with injuries. Guys get injured, it happens.