Peter Thomas back as an assistant coach

[VT4700]

Sorry to disagree (or attack in his mind) with VT again, but an administration that cares about winning doesn't accept a decade of no NCAA or 5 years of no playoffs for football. They don't talk about competing, they find ways to win. The zero accountability that spews out of the Robins Center and the men's basketball program says it all. VT and others can continue to make excuses for not winning enough and only having 3 NCAA tournaments in 17 years. But this program hasn't consistently won enough and 1 improbable run to the A10 Championship doesn't change that. Hopefully CM has righted the ship, but he's lost the benefit of the doubt. Prove it starting next year.

What do you mean by an administration that cares about winning doesn't accept the lack of tourneys or playoffs? What do you mean they find ways to win? What should they do? Cheat?

So, let me see if I follow you here: They cared about winning in football in 2008 and 2009 when we went 24-5 with a national title. They then cared about basketball when we went to back to back tourneys in 2010 and 2011, but mysteriously did not care about football anymore during that time. Then, after hiring Rocco, they cared about football again and we went to the football playoffs 3 straight years from 2014-16, but for some reason, they decided to stop caring about basketball. Now, even with our recent basketball success and a new $17 million practice facility, they don't care about basketball or football. Just making sure I am following along here. Does that sum it up?

 

[SpiderTrap]

Whether or not sticking with Mooney was the right/wrong decision will be determined in the next 2-3 years. If we make a return to the NCAA in that time frame - then you can sit back and say the administration is smarter than everyone and they had it right sticking with him. If we don't return in the next 2-3 years (maybe 4 depending on your level of expectation) - then you will hear the conversation start all over again.

 

[97spiderfan]

So, those that think we don't care enough about winning, what exactly do you think we should be doing? Obviously, a $17 million Robins Center renovation, and a $15 million practice facility means nothing to you, so what are you looking or hoping for?

NCAA Tournament Bids and FCS playoff appearances. And leadership that consistently, unabashedly, and publicly states that is the goal.

 

[MrTbone]

Do you really think anyone in the administration wouldn't want our basketball teams to win as much and as often as possible? Everything we have done screams that we want to win. I don't think the Robins Center, the practice facility, and the charter flights are just keeping up with our peers, they are passing them, and passing them by a lot in many cases. And, as has been said many times on here, our coach makes over a million a year. All of this seems a lot better than what most of our peers have or are doing. Also, why would we go to the A-10 if we didn't care a lot about our basketball team? Allow me to disagree because I think everything we have done says just the opposite of what you think.

I think one way to think about it is not whether or not UR wants to win, to your point, we’ve invested adequately to win.

What arguably is more important is if they are committed “not to lose”. In our case, the definition of that is “to make the tournament”. It’s one thing to spend to win, it’s another thing to double down when you don’t hit a goal, like making the tournament somewhat regularly.

it’s probably fair to say that UR isn’t willing not to lose.

 

[VT4700]

I think one way to think about it is not whether or not UR wants to win, to your point, we’ve invested adequately to win.

What arguably is more important is if they are committed “not to lose”. In our case, the definition of that is “to make the tournament”. It’s one thing to spend to win, it’s another thing to double down when you don’t hit a goal, like making the tournament somewhat regularly.

it’s probably fair to say that UR isn’t willing not to lose.

And, I asked earlier. What do you suggest they do? Cheat?

 

[MrTbone]

And, I asked earlier. What do you suggest they do? Cheat?

Well no, that’s pretty linear thinking. I mean one option they certainly could have considered is not maintaining the status quo. But that’s my thesis, which is that UR is not real interested in making changes to avoid losing.

 

[spiderman]

so is the fact that we didn't fire Mooney the only example of the administration supposedly not caring about winning in basketball?

 

[VT4700]

so is the fact that we didn't fire Mooney the only example of the administration supposedly not caring about winning in basketball?

Must be. No one has named anything else. And, that still makes no sense because how does not firing a guy that took us to a sweet 16 and back to back tourneys and makes over a million a year mean you don't care about winning when all you had to do was fire him and replace him with some inexperienced guy like a Dane Fischer and pay him around $400,000. Wouldn't that have been the way to go if you don't care about winning?

 

[fan2011]

so is the fact that we didn't fire Mooney the only example of the administration supposedly not caring about winning in basketball?

Yes.

 

[SFspidur]

Not letting Bernard in was a travesty. He wasn't a game-changer, but would have been a key piece for us and would have cost UR nothing institutionally to admit him to SPCS.

 

[spider23]

Yep, the Malcom Bernard thing was a mess. Also, the guy from Air Force would have been a big help.

 

[SFspidur]

Avila from Navy? He was a stud. There was concern about some of his Navy classes being able to transfer and it seemed like there may have been a little more to it as well. Sure would have been nice to have him.

 

[97spiderfan]

so is the fact that we didn't fire Mooney the only example of the administration supposedly not caring about winning in basketball?

Yep. He literally was the only coach in a high mid to high major conference that was in his position for 11 plus years with out a tournament appearance. THE ONLY ONE. It was him and Pat Chambers (Penn State) for a while but fortunately then Pat got canned and it was just Mooney.

 

[spider23]

Avila from Navy? He was a stud. There was concern about some of his Navy classes being able to transfer and it seemed like there may have been a little more to it as well. Sure would have been nice to have him.

Yes, JJ Avila. I believe ended up putting up big numbers at Colorado State.

 

[SFspidur]

Yes, JJ Avila. I believe ended up putting up big numbers at Colorado State.

Yep, he had to go JUCO and sit out a year after things fell through with us, then went on to lead Colorado State in scoring and earn all-MWC honors in his final two seasons. A skilled big we really could have used.

 

[fan2011]

Not letting Bernard in was a travesty. He wasn't a game-changer, but would have been a key piece for us and would have cost UR nothing institutionally to admit him to SPCS.

Bernard was instead a starter on a good Xavier team that I think made had a decent run in the tournament. Was that the year we were first 4 out?

it wasn’t the first 4 out year, it was TJ and SDJ senior year. Bernard definitely would have filled a big need at the 3 or 4.

 

[spiderman]

not admitting kids due to academics doesn't mean the administration doesn't want to win. it does mean we weren't willing to do anything and everything in order to win, though. and I'm ok with that. UR is a difficult school. we don't have majors that you can skate through like some schools have. there has to be a line. maybe it was too high. maybe it's been lowered. I don't think we'll ever know.

97, I believe Hardt made the decision in 2019 to retain Mooney for a bunch of reasons, a big one being that I think Hardt believed in the path Mooney had us on at that time. he didn't simply look in the rear view mirror and say the past wasn't good enough. he looked at what Mooney was doing to improve things. he looked at the roster. at the staff. and that decision was rewarded with a 62-29 record the past 3 seasons.

I can understand back then you didn't like keeping Mooney. but after 62-29 with 3 postseason worthy teams, it's hard to agree that Hardt made a bad decision, or that he didn't care about winning.

 

[SFspidur]

There should have been no line for Bernard...it's SPCS for one year. Let him do liberal arts or HR and who cares what happens in the classroom.

 

[Spider B]

Yep. He literally was the only coach in a high mid to high major conference that was in his position for 11 plus years with out a tournament appearance. THE ONLY ONE. It was him and Pat Chambers (Penn State) for a while but fortunately then Pat got canned and it was just Mooney.

Cracks me up how some have to go back 11 seasons ago as justification to keep CM. 3 NCAA tournaments in 17 years is unacceptable. Most of our current roster was in middle school in 2011! And yes, the fact that we allowed the program to over a decade between NCAA appearances without making a change shows winning is not valued. The lack of accountability shows winning is not valued. When you talk about competing being the goal, not winning, it shows winning is not valued. Surprised this has to be explained to some.

 

[VT4700]

Cracks me up how some have to go back 11 seasons ago as justification to keep CM. 3 NCAA tournaments in 17 years is unacceptable. Most of our current roster was in middle school in 2011! And yes, the fact that we allowed the program to over a decade between NCAA appearances without making a change shows winning is not valued. The lack of accountability shows winning is not valued. When you talk about competing being the goal, not winning, it shows winning is not valued. Surprised this has to be explained to some.

You seem really upset. Sorry you couldn't enjoy this past season. 11 seasons??? Did 2020 and 2022 not happen? I feel like we are in 2019 coming off of a losing season. Sman said it best. All the ones who got on Hardt for not making a change....how can you still be upset with him? He got it right.

 

[Eight Legger]

The basis for this entire discussion simply comes down to what you consider success. Many of us view it is winning A-10 championships and making the NCAA tournament and nothing less. Others view it as a winning season, some fun games, maybe a nice NIT run and a chance to make the NCAAs every now and then. Others view it as having good kids on the team who graduate, don't get in trouble and are good representatives of the university.

The point that I and many others have tried to make over the years is that when the administration invests financially in a program to the extent it has here for the past 11 years, that suggests that it expects very tangible evidence of the former. But in practice, it has seemed content with the latter two.

I don't think anyone here is upset that we won the A-10 this year, made the tournament and won a game. It was phenomenal and well-deserved by players and coaches alike. But, one A-10 title and one NCAA appearance in 11 years is not the definition of success that I want to see here, given what I think we can be. Were we to look only at the past three seasons, we would see two good ones and one bad one. One A-10 title and and NCAA appearance every three years is a nice bar to set.

But, you also have to account for the previous eight years, too. That's where there is a difference of opinion, with some pointing to a couple "almost-made-it" years as positives, while others of us view them as negatives because we missed the NCAA.

 

[MrTbone]

so is the fact that we didn't fire Mooney the only example of the administration supposedly not caring about winning in basketball?

So let me be clear, I wasn’t making a point that they had to fire CM, although I certainly have felt that was long overdue.

My point was simply that we talk a lot about how UR has probably done what’s needed to win, whether that’s ponying up enough money for a coach, building the practice facility, or relaxing admissions enough. I think what we don’t talk about is what the university does when that stuff doesn’t work, the answer to which is probably not a lot. We don’t seem to force Head coaching changes, assistant coaching changes, aggressively hit the transfer portal, etc.

It’s just an observation.

 

[whampas]

If winning was a priority for Richmond they would say so. Their communications about athletics would include the word "WIN." Their communications are carefully crafted to not put athletics anywhere close to academics. Mooney is the perfect front man for that operation.

 

[PASpider]

Duke is a strong academic school no doubt. And people know it as such. But the reason they know it to be a strong academic school is in large part due to the success of the basketball team. Prior to Coach K taking over - they were a respectable basketball team. Coach K took them to new heights, especially as college athletics and basketball blew up as well. But that put more eyes on the University through basketball, which as a result - highlighted their academic achievements because as kids looks at the school and do research - they realize, this is a good school. Better students apply and next thing you know - you academics rises as well.

I just think our administration, both athletics and overall school, are hesitant to make sports - with Basketball being the main focus because football is only I-AA, to make that next great leap. Now - Mooney and team can force their hand a bit by making multiple tourney's a short time period - but I think our administration is just fine with making the tourney every so often and just being competitive in other years.

And the the things they have done to "show bigger impact" - updating Robins center, locking down our coach for 10 years and million dollar deal after last NCAA run, charter flights, practice facility, etc. Those are all well and good, but I always felt like we were late to the party and did those secondary to other programs. It was like - we were trying to keep up, not trying to get ahead of other programs in my opinion.

I will say - so far this offseason - Mooney and staff have done what they need to do in the portal to fill holes and hopefully make another run. Time will tell how that plays out on the court because this will be the first time that Mooney has a team not only heavy with transfers, but transfers we likely need to play and produce in order for this team to be successful next season. So how quickly those new guys can fit in and take the lead in some instances will be the driving force if this team has NCAA chances. BUT - as of right now, they have assembled a roster on paper that could give us a shot.

Ridiculous. Duke was a premier college before Coach K. Yes, they have more recognition now due to basketball, but it wasn’t like they sacrificed academically or all of a sudden became a good academic school because of him.

 

[KE Spider]

NCAA Tournament Bids and FCS playoff appearances. And leadership that consistently, unabashedly, and publicly states that is the goal.

Amen!

 

[SpiderTrap]

Ridiculous. Duke was a premier college before Coach K. Yes, they have more recognition now due to basketball, but it wasn’t like they sacrificed academically or all of a sudden became a good academic school because of him.

Duke was known regionally before their basketball team took off. Very similar to UR now. We are a well known school in the south and parts of the Northeast where we pull a lot of the "wealthy" kids from, but you once you leave and start heading to midwest, west, and middle of the country - we are not well known.

You mention Duke anywhere in the US - people know it. And basketball played a major role in that. Were they a good school before it - of course. Its just now they are a good school with a well know basketball program - and that combination makes them easy to know.

I am not saying we could be the next Duke - we have 0% chance at that. But I think a school like Davidson has even passed us by in terms of name recognition and VCU as well. Are they better schools than UR academically - I don't think so. But I am willing to bet more people have heard of VCU and Davidson than UR. And this probably is not a problem to UR administration. As long as enrollment stays steady, and they can still charge 74K for tuition and room and board - they will be perfectly happy with just a competing athletic department.

What could a basketball team going to the next level do for the University? And by next level - I simply mean something similar to VCU, where we are making the NCAA tourney pretty much every year or expected to do so. (They have made 10 NCAA tourney's in last 14 years). Who knows - but I don't think we have to worry about this happening.

 

[97spiderfan]

You seem really upset. Sorry you couldn't enjoy this past season. 11 seasons??? Did 2020 and 2022 not happen? I feel like we are in 2019 coming off of a losing season. Sman said it best. All the ones who got on Hardt for not making a change....how can you still be upset with him? He got it right.

People can be upset with Hardt for many reason. He has largely a bunker mentality, does not communicate well with stakeholders and the press. The football and baseball teams are pardon my french, crap. As for his decision on retaining Mooney, yeah, I'll admit their is certainly an argument that could be made that he made the right call.

Had we played the same way we played in the first half in the second half against Rhode Island in the A-10 tournament though, we are having an entirely different conversation right now. We didn't and the rest is history but Hardt was burning the Mooney candle down to the very end when we entered the A-10 tournament and on put that on top of what some of are other more high profile sports programs are doing and that Hardt comes across as elitist and tone deaf on most occasions, there still is ample reason to not have a lot of trust in his leadership.