OOC Grade is in!!! No surprise, it's an F

[spiderstudent17]

I will say, I have always felt that one indicator of a great program/coach at the mid-major level is how often its coaches move up to the higher level. Its certainly not the only factor, but it is a sign of success in my opinion. For instance, VCU has had Shaka, Will Wade, and Mike Rhoades all come and go to higher level programs in the past 10-15 years. Typically the coaches that have stayed at one program have had tremendous national level success like Coach K, Roy Williams, Boheim, Mark Few. Mooney is certainly not in that category. But there is a category below that where guys like McKillop and Mark Schmidt from the A10 are in, where I think UR administration feels Mooney falls into. When we think of other coaches at UR like Roussell for women basketball, Chemotti for men's lacrosse, or even Allison Kwolek who left WLax to be coach at Clemson, their names will likely be at least mentioned as an option to fill coaching positions vacancies at bigger name programs every year.

 

[97spiderfan]

I will say, I have always felt that one indicator of a great program/coach at the mid-major level is how often its coaches move up to the higher level. Its certainly not the only factor, but it is a sign of success in my opinion. For instance, VCU has had Shaka, Will Wade, and Mike Rhoades all come and go to higher level programs in the past 10-15 years. Typically the coaches that have stayed at one program have had tremendous national level success like Coach K, Roy Williams, Boheim, Mark Few. Mooney is certainly not in that category. But there is a category below that where guys like McKillop and Mark Schmidt from the A10 are in, where I think UR administration feels Mooney falls into. When we think of other coaches at UR like Roussell for women basketball, Chemotti for men's lacrosse, or even Allison Kwolek who left WLax to be coach at Clemson, their names will likely be at least mentioned as an option to fill coaching positions vacancies at bigger name programs every year.

Yeah, and not 1 higher level program has even inquired about Mooney for the good part of the last decade. Wonder why???

 

[spider23]

Yeah, and not 1 higher level program has even inquired about Mooney for the good part of the last decade. Wonder why???

Excellent point. Been forever since he has been mentioned for a big job, probably since 2012 or so.

 

[8legs1dream]

Yeah, and not 1 higher level program has even inquired about Mooney for the good part of the last decade. Wonder why???

one of the greatest unsolved mysteries of Richmond athletics.

 

[spiderstudent17]

Well the short catch phrase answer that many will harp on is because of Mooney's overall lack of NCAA tournament success. However, there is more nuance to this in my eyes. Mooney is coaching at the second highest tiered-level right now, below the P5s so the only way he can move higher on the coaching totem poll is to go to a P5 program. Programs in comparable level conferences like AAC, MWC wouldn't pursue him even if he did have super high level success here. The threshold of coaching in a P5 program is much higher than moving let’s say from the MAAC to Missouri Valley Conference to the A10. In other words, it’s easier to move up the coaching ladder from the 30th best conference to the 21st best conference to the 12th best conference than it is to come from the 8th/9th best conference to the 3rd or 4th best conference.


It’s not just programs like Duke, UNC, etc. but virtually every power conference team has more resources, money, pedigree compared to us where their demands are going to be higher in terms of excellence. Mooney can do well in the eyes of UR administration, but not do well enough in the eyes of P5s where it warrants reaching out to him. So essentially the categories are 1: Mooney performs so well P5s want him. 2: Mooney performs well enough for UR to want to keep him. 3: Mooney performs poor enough that UR wants to fire him. I would say that in the eyes of UR administration, Mooney currently falls somewhere between category 1 and 2, and maybe in the past has been between categories 2 and 3, which is why he hasn't been fired nor has had P5 programs reaching out for him.

Mark Schmidt is in his 18th year at the Bonnies. He has won 2 A10 tournaments and 2 A10 regular seasons. He has been to NCAA's 3 times. He has a win percentage of 57.3% at St. Bonaventure. Let's compare this to Mooney who is in his 20th year with Richmond. He has won 2 A10 tournaments, 1 A10 regular season, been to NCAA's 3 times and has a winning percentage of 56.3% at UR. Should Mark Schmidt be fired as coach too for underperforming?

What I don't understand is why we take every opportunity to harp on Mooney and his lack of NCAA tournament success and not acknowledge that we have also had very good years and high success recently, even if we didn't make the NCAAs. He won coach of the year in the A10 last year. I am not immune to saying Mooney should be let go. If this year continues to be very bad for us and next year is the same case, then I think it warrants discussion about his future as a coach here. But the reality is that mid major programs like us (even in a great conference like A10) likely have different definitions of what warrants success compared to P5 programs. Yes, VCU and Dayton are standards of mid major programs who are able to achieve P5 success and that is the goal we should strive for, but failing to match VCU/Dayton level success is not inherently a failure.

 

[97spiderfan]

. Yes, VCU and Dayton are standards of mid major programs who are able to achieve P5 success and that is the goal we should strive for, but failing to match VCU/Dayton level success is not inherently a failure.

Yes it is. VCU and Dayton are both in the same damn league as us. It is a failure to not just strive but to actually be the best program we can be, on par with the our peer schools in our league. All we have to do is look 6 miles down the road to see one of those peer schools doing it. We've been just been conditioned to think this is the best success we can hope for. No one at VCU is saying nonsense like this ever (I'm not calling out you specifically 17) but this is what is parroted by our leadership all of the time. Listen to the VCU AD speak, listen to their media guys talk, listen to their coach talk. They all talk about winning ALL of the time, being a Top 25 program and going to the NCAA's. It is the sole focus of everything they do at VCU, as it should be here and everywhere, but yet it isn't here.

 

[spiderstudent17]

Yes it is. VCU and Dayton are both in the same damn league as us. It is a failure to not just strive but to actually be the best program we can be, on par with the our peer schools in our league. All we have to do is look 6 miles down the road to see one of those peer schools doing it. We've been just been conditioned to think this is the best success we can hope for. No one at VCU is saying nonsense like this ever (I'm not calling out you specifically 17) but this is what is parroted by our leadership all of the time. Listen to the VCU AD speak, listen to their media guys talk, listen to their coach talk. They all talk about winning ALL of the time, being a Top 25 program and going to the NCAA's. It is the sole focus of everything they do at VCU, as it should be here and everywhere, but yet it isn't here.

Personally, I am in agreement with you and would love for us to be vocal about our expectations, but why is keeping it internal a bad thing? We don't know what Mooney says to the players behind close doors. We don't know what Hardt says to Mooney behind closed doors either. I don't think it would be a good look at all for a coach to publicly criticize a player even if its the right and honest assessment. That is something that should be said behind closed doors, which is why it leads to public statements from Mooney about him needing to give more playing time to players or this generic "we need to shoot better". A lot of people get on Hardt too for not being public about expectations. It was Theodore Roosevelt who said "speak softly and carry a big stick". That assertive approach is applicable in a way to demanding excellence in athletics where talking the talk isn't as important as walking the walk. "Big Hardt no cattle" Hardt has helped UR athletics have a season last year where 10 out of its 19 teams finished either 1st or 2nd in the A10. First time since the mid 2000s where our sports programs won 5 championships. The same "Big Hardt no cattle" who many felt was the lazy and easy hire of Roussell because he was from Bucknell. Now Roussell has taken UR women's basketball to new heights never reach before. The same "Big Hardt no cattle" who hired Anne Harrington that has led our Wlax to back-to-back A10 championships, Mik Aoki leading UR to A10 finalist in first season, or hired our new field hockey coach Martu Loncarica who has led UR field hockey to 10+ wins in a season in her first season for the first time since 2019.

And even when we have made public comments like saying we are one of the top programs in the nation, many came here and criticized Mooney for that lol, rather than praising the confidence and belief that we belong in that category. Hallock even had an article in UR magazine where he talked about the value of sports at UR: https://magazine.richmond.edu/artic...m_medium=referral&utm_campaign=magazine-story

Here's a notable quote "It was a starting seed from which I’ve grown a profound appreciation for athletics and a conviction, as the president of a university with 17 Division I teams, that competitive sports bring tremendous value to our university and that Spider Athletics can help take UR to even greater heights."

For me, I would rather have the actions speak louder than words. Even though yes, I do personally wish we were publicly vocal too.

 

[ChoppinBroccoli]

I will say, I have always felt that one indicator of a great program/coach at the mid-major level is how often its coaches move up to the higher level. Its certainly not the only factor, but it is a sign of success in my opinion. For instance, VCU has had Shaka, Will Wade, and Mike Rhoades all come and go to higher level programs in the past 10-15 years. Typically the coaches that have stayed at one program have had tremendous national level success like Coach K, Roy Williams, Boheim, Mark Few. Mooney is certainly not in that category. But there is a category below that where guys like McKillop and Mark Schmidt from the A10 are in, where I think UR administration feels Mooney falls into. When we think of other coaches at UR like Roussell for women basketball, Chemotti for men's lacrosse, or even Allison Kwolek who left WLax to be coach at Clemson, their names will likely be at least mentioned as an option to fill coaching positions vacancies at bigger name programs every year.

Jeff Capel and Anthony Grant before Shaka Smart, as well.

VCU (and JMU in football) SEEK OUT coaches that "higher" programs will want to poach some day. It's one of the ingredients in their success relative to ours.

Meanwhile, we FREAK OUT when one of our coaches (rarely) gets courted by higher-level programs. That's how we get saddled with ridiculous 10-year extensions.

It's no coincidence that the best years of our football program were the Clawson-London years, and the best post-Tarrant era for our basketball program was under Beilein.

 

[GKiller]

Jeff Capel and Anthony Grant before Shaka Smart, as well.

VCU (and JMU in football) SEEK OUT coaches that "higher" programs will want to poach some day. It's one of the ingredients in their success relative to ours.

Meanwhile, we FREAK OUT when one of our coaches (rarely) gets courted by higher-level programs. That's how we get saddled with ridiculous 10-year extensions.

It's no coincidence that the best years of our football program were the Clawson-London years, and the best post-Tarrant era for our basketball program was under Beilein.

YES

 

[spiderstudent17]

Jeff Capel and Anthony Grant before Shaka Smart, as well.

VCU (and JMU in football) SEEK OUT coaches that "higher" programs will want to poach some day. It's one of the ingredients in their success relative to ours.

Meanwhile, we FREAK OUT when one of our coaches (rarely) gets courted by higher-level programs. That's how we get saddled with ridiculous 10-year extensions.

It's no coincidence that the best years of our football program were the Clawson-London years, and the best post-Tarrant era for our basketball program was under Beilein.

The 10 year contract extension was a very bad decision. Also, I am sure VCU would love to have a coach like Shana who stays with them and doesn’t constantly get poached. I admit that coaches moving on to higher conference is one indicator of success, but also explain my very nuanced thought process as to how not having coaches be poached by better teams isn’t indicative inherently of a mediocre program.

Always ironic to bring up football success now when we have had the most wins in CAA the past 3 years, back-to-back titles for the first time in CAA, will have 3rd playoff appearance in a row, and a strong chance to get a playoff seed.

 

[GKiller]

Mark Schmidt is in his 18th year at the Bonnies. He has won 2 A10 tournaments and 2 A10 regular seasons. He has been to NCAA's 3 times. He has a win percentage of 57.3% at St. Bonaventure. Let's compare this to Mooney who is in his 20th year with Richmond. He has won 2 A10 tournaments, 1 A10 regular season, been to NCAA's 3 times and has a winning percentage of 56.3% at UR. Should Mark Schmidt be fired as coach too for underperforming?

Schmidt is a wild one to me. On surface yes pretty similar results (tho Schmidt better). But it's looking at all the external factors that make it more amazing. The Bonnies were essentially a death penalty program after the welding scandal. u r pretty young so not sure if u know that context. They were in an abyss. Richmond was a better program pre-Mooney than it's been with Mooney. Also have you ever been to Olean, NY or a game at Bona? I realize not too many have but remarkably I've been to a UR game there. They have a very loyal fanbase as we know & some history, but walking in Reilly Center to get to my seat...I thought I was walking the halls of my elementary school in 1985. That's what it looked like. If you were making a list of difficult places to succeed, I'd put St. Bonaventure up there. The resources & advantages we have at UR over St. Bona are enumerable.

I did not analyze the "inevitable" down seasons u mentioned in another post we were due for here. We're on season 8 of inevitable down years. 8 of 20.

 

[8legs1dream]

Well the short catch phrase answer that many will harp on is because of Mooney's overall lack of NCAA tournament success. However, there is more nuance to this in my eyes. Mooney is coaching at the second highest tiered-level right now, below the P5s so the only way he can move higher on the coaching totem poll is to go to a P5 program. Programs in comparable level conferences like AAC, MWC wouldn't pursue him even if he did have super high level success here. The threshold of coaching in a P5 program is much higher than moving let’s say from the MAAC to Missouri Valley Conference to the A10. In other words, it’s easier to move up the coaching ladder from the 30th best conference to the 21st best conference to the 12th best conference than it is to come from the 8th/9th best conference to the 3rd or 4th best conference.

If the excuse is that it's soooo hard to get a P5 coaching job from the mid major level then how has the coach of the team across town been able to accomplish that feat, what, 5 or 6 times in the past 20 years? How do your eyes like that nuance.

It’s not just programs like Duke, UNC, etc. but virtually every power conference team has more resources, money, pedigree compared to us where their demands are going to be higher in terms of excellence. Mooney can do well in the eyes of UR administration, but not do well enough in the eyes of P5s where it warrants reaching out to him. So essentially the categories are 1: Mooney performs so well P5s want him. 2: Mooney performs well enough for UR to want to keep him. 3: Mooney performs poor enough that UR wants to fire him. I would say that in the eyes of UR administration, Mooney currently falls somewhere between category 1 and 2, and maybe in the past has been between categories 2 and 3, which is why he hasn't been fired nor has had P5 programs reaching out for him.

Who are you kidding, he is firmly in the number 2 camp. You know no P5's want him and you have already laid out the excuse framework above why that is the case.

Mark Schmidt is in his 18th year at the Bonnies. He has won 2 A10 tournaments and 2 A10 regular seasons. He has been to NCAA's 3 times. He has a win percentage of 57.3% at St. Bonaventure. Let's compare this to Mooney who is in his 20th year with Richmond. He has won 2 A10 tournaments, 1 A10 regular season, been to NCAA's 3 times and has a winning percentage of 56.3% at UR. Should Mark Schmidt be fired as coach too for underperforming?

That is their decision to make. If they are good with the results then they should keep him. Some of us dare to think that we can reach greater heights with greater consistency than we have in Mooney's tenure. We are the bad ones of course for daring to dream.

What I don't understand is why we take every opportunity to harp on Mooney and his lack of NCAA tournament success and not acknowledge that we have also had very good years and high success recently, even if we didn't make the NCAAs. He won coach of the year in the A10 last year. I am not immune to saying Mooney should be let go. If this year continues to be very bad for us and next year is the same case, then I think it warrants discussion about his future as a coach here. But the reality is that mid major programs like us (even in a great conference like A10) likely have different definitions of what warrants success compared to P5 programs. Yes, VCU and Dayton are standards of mid major programs who are able to achieve P5 success and that is the goal we should strive for, but failing to match VCU/Dayton level success is not inherently a failure.

Because NCAA tournament appearances is the ultimate metric of a healthy program. You go ahead get revved up over coach of the year awards and regular season titles that mean mostly nothing in the long run, and sure as hell didn't mean anything last season as we crashed into the sun and still haven't recovered.

And that bolded line is just brilliant. You should submit that to the Athletic Department, that is new AD slogan material right there 😂
failing to match VCU/Dayton level success is not inherently a failure.

 

[spiderstudent17]

Schmidt is a wild one to me. On surface yes pretty similar results (tho Schmidt better). But it's looking at all the external factors that make it more amazing. The Bonnies were essentially a death penalty program after the welding scandal. u r pretty young so not sure if u know that context. They were in an abyss. Richmond was a better program pre-Mooney than it's been with Mooney. Also have you ever been to Olean, NY or a game at Bona? I realize not too many have but remarkably I've been to a UR game there. They have a very loyal fanbase as we know & some history, but walking in Reilly Center to get to my seat...I thought I was walking the halls of my elementary school in 1985. That's what it looked like. If you were making a list of difficult places to succeed, I'd put St. Bonaventure up there. The resources & advantages we have at UR over St. Bona are enumerable.

I did not analyze the "inevitable" down seasons u mentioned in another post we were due for here. We're on season 8 of inevitable down years. 8 of 20.

So you're acknowledging that the Bonnie's AD likely qualify what they consider success (compared to other programs) because of external factors that may make it harder to succeed there relative to other places? There have been a lot of things about UR external factors, notably academic standard that had made it harder to succeed here too. Allegedly that has changed recently, which is why Mooney has had more success here the past 5 years. You mentioned that the "resources & advantages we have at UR over St. Bona are enumerable" but when I bring that up saying the same thing about us compared VCU/Dayton, your reply is we shouldn't be making excuses since they are in the same conference as us.

Listen, my goal isn't to shy away and accept defeat as "little ole Richmond". I agree with you that we are in the A10 and we should act like a team that wants to compete in and win in the A10. I just don't see evidence of us not having that commitment that many here claim. We have great facilities, resources, NIL, allegedly loosened academic standards, and have seen good results recently. There are some aspects about us as a university (small, private school, still higher academic standards even if allegedly loosened) that naturally will be factors that may be perceived against us when recruiting players compared to a VCU/Dayton. So my overall point is that our goal of success while it should be high, is likely not the same as P5 programs that would be trying to our basketball coach from us.

 

[spiderstudent17]

If the excuse is that it's soooo hard to get a P5 coaching job from the mid major level then how has the coach of the team across town been able to accomplish that feat, what, 5 or 6 times in the past 20 years? How do your eyes like that nuance.


Who are you kidding, he is firmly in the number 2 camp. You know no P5's want him and you have already laid out the excuse framework above why that is the case.


That is their decision to make. If they are good with the results then they should keep him. Some of us dare to think that we can reach greater heights with greater consistency than we have in Mooney's tenure. We are the bad ones of course for daring to dream.



Because NCAA tournament appearances is the ultimate metric of a healthy program. You go ahead get revved up over coach of the year awards and regular season titles that mean mostly nothing in the long run, and sure as hell didn't mean anything last season as we crashed into the sun and still haven't recovered.

And that bolded line is just brilliant. You should submit that to the Athletic Department, that is new AD slogan material right there 😂
failing to match VCU/Dayton level success is not inherently a failure.

That last point of "failing to match VCU/Dayton level success is not inherently a failure" is not suggesting that we shouldn't strive to achieve the things VCU and Dayton have while in the A10. Of course we should. Like I said to GK, we are in the A10 and we should act like an A10 team and there is no reason to think we aren't committed to that sucsess. My statement was saying that even if we don't match that level of success, it isn't necessarily a failure. 2020 is a perfect example. Dayton was top 5 in the country and likely #1 seed in NCAA tournament. That year, we finished 2nd in A10, had 24-7 record and a strong chance for an at-large. Should we say that our season a failure that year because Dayton had such an incredible season? Should we say our sweet 16 run was a failure in 2011 because VCU also made the final four that year? Personally, I don't think their accomplishments takes away from what we achieved.

 

[GKiller]

A lot of people get on Hardt too for not being public about expectations. It was Theodore Roosevelt who said "speak softly and carry a big stick". That assertive approach is applicable in a way to demanding excellence in athletics where talking the talk isn't as important as walking the walk. "Big Hardt no cattle" Hardt has helped UR athletics have a season last year where 10 out of its 19 teams finished either 1st or 2nd in the A10. First time since the mid 2000s where our sports programs won 5 championships.

And even when we have made public comments like saying we are one of the top programs in the nation, many came here and criticized Mooney for that lol, rather than praising the confidence and belief that we belong in that category.

did u just compare pretentious Hardt to Teddy Roosevelt? lmao. never saw that coming.

Also, it's Big Hat No Cattle. Copyright GKiller. Tho if u swapped in Big Hardt for Big Hat on purpose...nice, that's not bad.

And many criticized that comment? Maybe there were others I really don't remember seeing, but we all know that's me. U can call me out. In fact I encourage. I won't take personal.

I assume u missed my explanation for why I wish we would have more confidence but I'm not going to praise that particular one...

Because we never talk, act, or expect to truly be 1 of the top bball programs in nation any other time! Waiting 20 years. Go for it Richmond. Instead when do we get it....in a self serving press release to announce yet another extension. That's when we bust it out? Please. Not going to respect that when the body of work is 1 NCAA going on 14 years, 9-25 vs. crosstown rival in same conference, and 8 out of 20 inevitable down years.

 

[GKiller]

And that bolded line is just brilliant. You should submit that to the Athletic Department, that is new AD slogan material right there 😂
failing to match VCU/Dayton level success is not inherently a failure.

haha, u r so right this could be our slogan. I would make it my avatar if I didn't fear for AnnapSpider's blood pressure.

 

[8legs1dream]

That last point of "failing to match VCU/Dayton level success is not inherently a failure" is not suggesting that we shouldn't strive to achieve the things VCU and Dayton have while in the A10. Of course we should. Like I said to GK, we are in the A10 and we should act like an A10 team and there is no reason to think we aren't committed to that sucsess. My statement was saying that even if we don't match that level of success, it isn't necessarily a failure. 2020 is a perfect example. Dayton was top 5 in the country and likely #1 seed in NCAA tournament. That year, we finished 2nd in A10, had 24-7 record and a strong chance for an at-large. Should we say that our season a failure that year because Dayton had such an incredible season? Should we say our sweet 16 run was a failure in 2011 because VCU also made the final four that year? Personally, I don't think their accomplishments takes away from what we achieved.

I swear we talk more about that cancelled covid season than Dayton fans do who had an open lane to a 1 seed and legitimate shot at a national title that year. The only difference is we only bring it up in the context of propping up Mooney 🤷‍♂️

 

[RichmondNative]

.Always ironic to bring up football success now when we have had the most wins in CAA the past 3 years, back-to-back titles for the first time in CAA, will have 3rd playoff appearance in a row, and a strong chance to get a playoff seed.

What is ironic is that even though the Spiders have had the 3 year success record you mention the program is moving to the Patriot League. Why? Bevause things change and the CAA football is a shell of its former self. May be saying the same for A10 basketball if Dayton and VCU manage to leave. UR went to the A10 for more basketball exposure and ended up watching the Broad St Boys take the ambition away.

Mooney is a good coach, the enemy of great.

 

[97spiderfan]

Covid year is all hypothetical at this point. We could have gotten an at large OR we could have lost in the first round of the A-10 tourney like we did last year after a great regular season and flamed out in the NIT. You never will know. Also, as has been said over and over again, 2022 doesn't happen without 2020 getting cancelled. So, you can't make both arguments in propping up Mooney. And also there was 2021 in between where we completely flamed out in what was a really random year of basketball.

 

[spiderstudent17]

I swear we talk more about that cancelled covid season than Dayton fans do who had an open lane to a 1 seed and legitimate shot at a national title that year. The only difference is we only bring it up in the context of propping up Mooney 🤷‍♂️

Well it's a reality that some here seemingly don't want to accept

 

[brooklyn brownstone]

17 you may be blurring the lines here a bit.

We have the commitment in terms of resources - it is one of the items I believe we mostly agree upon. Someone posted the numbers here awhile back for the A10. I don't recall where Bona fell but I seem to recall it was that Bona spent about $2.9m on their bball program while UR spent about $4.2m on our program (this is as of 4-5 years ago IIRC.) Significant % difference of about 44%. UR was around 90th-100th in spending, while VCU, Dayton and SLU were in top 75 at about $5.9m. Unsure how NIL may have contributed to a jump since then.

The results don't seem to match the resources for the level of financial, NIL, facilities and other support (sans marketing) for the program. 40% of years of the last 20 are .500 or below. 2 of every 5, with an average NCAA appearance of only 1 in more than every 6 years.

Say. what you will but pressure at Dayton forced Brian Gregory to jump ship while he still could, after winning at a .647 clip at Dayton. Anthony Grant has a .660 winning % there but was facing heat a couple times as well. Mike Rhodes felt it at VCU in his first 3 years.

The burners are pretty cold here.

 

[spiderstudent17]

did u just compare pretentious Hardt to Teddy Roosevelt? lmao. never saw that coming.

Also, it's Big Hat No Cattle. Copyright GKiller. Tho if u swapped in Big Hardt for Big Hat on purpose...nice, that's not bad.

And many criticized that comment? Maybe there were others I really don't remember seeing, but we all know that's me. U can call me out. In fact I encourage. I won't take personal.

I assume u missed my explanation for why I wish we would have more confidence but I'm not going to praise that particular one...

Because we never talk, act, or expect to truly be 1 of the top bball programs in nation any other time! Waiting 20 years. Go for it Richmond. Instead when do we get it....in a self serving press release to announce yet another extension. That's when we bust it out? Please. Not going to respect that when the body of work is 1 NCAA going on 14 years, 9-25 vs. crosstown rival in same conference, and 8 out of 20 inevitable down years.

My point in that quote is that it doesn't matter what is said publicly, but rather the assertiveness behind close doors. Idk if I used that quote correctly or not and sure I got the "Big Hat no cattle" expression wrong lol. My general comment is while it's nice to have public comments from AD, I don't see how that matters if results are happening. For the reasons I allude to above, Hardt has done an excellent job as AD in my eyes. I don't care if he speaks publicly or not as long as we are producing results across our athletic department. My only criticism is the move to the Patriot League for football. Criticism not in the move itself, but the timing/reason for it (discussed more in football thread). But the way college football landscape is changing, that may prove to be the right decision too in a few years.

 

[spiderstudent17]

Covid year is all hypothetical at this point. We could have gotten an at large OR we could have lost in the first round of the A-10 tourney like we did last year after a great regular season and flamed out in the NIT. You never will know. Also, as has been said over and over again, 2022 doesn't happen without 2020 getting cancelled. So, you can't make both arguments in propping up Mooney. And also there was 2021 in between where we completely flamed out in what was a really random year of basketball.

Every team in the country was operating under the same COVID bonus year rules so I don't see how that should diminish from the 2022 A10 championship at all.

 

[mr.spider]

Well the short catch phrase answer that many will harp on is because of Mooney's overall lack of NCAA tournament success. However, there is more nuance to this in my eyes. Mooney is coaching at the second highest tiered-level right now, below the P5s so the only way he can move higher on the coaching totem poll is to go to a P5 program. Programs in comparable level conferences like AAC, MWC wouldn't pursue him even if he did have super high level success here. The threshold of coaching in a P5 program is much higher than moving let’s say from the MAAC to Missouri Valley Conference to the A10. In other words, it’s easier to move up the coaching ladder from the 30th best conference to the 21st best conference to the 12th best conference than it is to come from the 8th/9th best conference to the 3rd or 4th best conference.


It’s not just programs like Duke, UNC, etc. but virtually every power conference team has more resources, money, pedigree compared to us where their demands are going to be higher in terms of excellence. Mooney can do well in the eyes of UR administration, but not do well enough in the eyes of P5s where it warrants reaching out to him. So essentially the categories are 1: Mooney performs so well P5s want him. 2: Mooney performs well enough for UR to want to keep him. 3: Mooney performs poor enough that UR wants to fire him. I would say that in the eyes of UR administration, Mooney currently falls somewhere between category 1 and 2, and maybe in the past has been between categories 2 and 3, which is why he hasn't been fired nor has had P5 programs reaching out for him.

Mark Schmidt is in his 18th year at the Bonnies. He has won 2 A10 tournaments and 2 A10 regular seasons. He has been to NCAA's 3 times. He has a win percentage of 57.3% at St. Bonaventure. Let's compare this to Mooney who is in his 20th year with Richmond. He has won 2 A10 tournaments, 1 A10 regular season, been to NCAA's 3 times and has a winning percentage of 56.3% at UR. Should Mark Schmidt be fired as coach too for underperforming?

What I don't understand is why we take every opportunity to harp on Mooney and his lack of NCAA tournament success and not acknowledge that we have also had very good years and high success recently, even if we didn't make the NCAAs. He won coach of the year in the A10 last year. I am not immune to saying Mooney should be let go. If this year continues to be very bad for us and next year is the same case, then I think it warrants discussion about his future as a coach here. But the reality is that mid major programs like us (even in a great conference like A10) likely have different definitions of what warrants success compared to P5 programs. Yes, VCU and Dayton are standards of mid major programs who are able to achieve P5 success and that is the goal we should strive for, but failing to match VCU/Dayton level success is not inherently a failure.

Why do we criticize Mooney?
It's very simple- low NCAA success. It's the only metric that matters.

Plus, there is no upside with him. It takes a miracle season with the perfect talent pool to be in the running to make the NCAAs. Why is this true? Because he doesn't adapt to the talent on his team year to year. This is the # 1 criteria for judging a coach. Any coach can do well if he has a ton of talented players.

Thirdly, he lacks fundamentals. We've discussed the many things in this category many times. I'll just leave it at rebounding. You can't win without the ****ing ball in your hands.

 

[mr.spider]

Yes it is. VCU and Dayton are both in the same damn league as us. It is a failure to not just strive but to actually be the best program we can be, on par with the our peer schools in our league. All we have to do is look 6 miles down the road to see one of those peer schools doing it. We've been just been conditioned to think this is the best success we can hope for. No one at VCU is saying nonsense like this ever (I'm not calling out you specifically 17) but this is what is parroted by our leadership all of the time. Listen to the VCU AD speak, listen to their media guys talk, listen to their coach talk. They all talk about winning ALL of the time, being a Top 25 program and going to the NCAA's. It is the sole focus of everything they do at VCU, as it should be here and everywhere, but yet it isn't here.

Totally agree. I will say, though, we also scream and hollar when we declare ourselves "a top basketball program in the country". We should have that mindset even if we are still striving to truly get there. It's a hell of a lot better than the "the little 'ole Richmond' mantra.

 

[mr.spider]

Schmidt is a wild one to me. On surface yes pretty similar results (tho Schmidt better). But it's looking at all the external factors that make it more amazing. The Bonnies were essentially a death penalty program after the welding scandal. u r pretty young so not sure if u know that context. They were in an abyss. Richmond was a better program pre-Mooney than it's been with Mooney. Also have you ever been to Olean, NY or a game at Bona? I realize not too many have but remarkably I've been to a UR game there. They have a very loyal fanbase as we know & some history, but walking in Reilly Center to get to my seat...I thought I was walking the halls of my elementary school in 1985. That's what it looked like. If you were making a list of difficult places to succeed, I'd put St. Bonaventure up there. The resources & advantages we have at UR over St. Bona are enumerable.

I did not analyze the "inevitable" down seasons u mentioned in another post we were due for here. We're on season 8 of inevitable down years. 8 of 20.

Totally agree with your assessment on the Reilly Center. And there's nothing anywhere near Olean, NY worthy of a trip. Shocking that the Bonnies have a D1 program at all.

 

[mr.spider]

So you're acknowledging that the Bonnie's AD likely qualify what they consider success (compared to other programs) because of external factors that may make it harder to succeed there relative to other places? There have been a lot of things about UR external factors, notably academic standard that had made it harder to succeed here too. Allegedly that has changed recently, which is why Mooney has had more success here the past 5 years. You mentioned that the "resources & advantages we have at UR over St. Bona are enumerable" but when I bring that up saying the same thing about us compared VCU/Dayton, your reply is we shouldn't be making excuses since they are in the same conference as us.

Listen, my goal isn't to shy away and accept defeat as "little ole Richmond". I agree with you that we are in the A10 and we should act like a team that wants to compete in and win in the A10. I just don't see evidence of us not having that commitment that many here claim. We have great facilities, resources, NIL, allegedly loosened academic standards, and have seen good results recently. There are some aspects about us as a university (small, private school, still higher academic standards even if allegedly loosened) that naturally will be factors that may be perceived against us when recruiting players compared to a VCU/Dayton. So my overall point is that our goal of success while it should be high, is likely not the same as P5 programs that would be trying to our basketball coach from us.

Good points about us comparing resources to Bonnies and then using opposite argument when comparing to vcu/Dayton. However, you go on to point out the great resources we have, and I agree. I believe we are much closer in resources to vcu than the bonnies. We put down the administration for not trying or providing enough resources. I totally disagree with that. I think we are making every effort to put ourselves in position to be highly successful. We have ONE issue. We are 100% blinded to the fact we have a BAD coach, who has no upside and is not capable of capitalizing on the gold mine of resources here.

 

[MrTbone]

It's a reasonable argument to suggest that your coach is one of, if not the most important resource you have, perhaps second only to the players themselves. But he selects the players.

I don't think CM is a bad coach by any stretch, but he doesn't seem like a great coach. I think if he were, he has a lot of the other resources needed to be successful here. I don't see lack of other resources holding us back. Nice stadium, nice practice facility, good location, good academic ranking (I guess that one could cut both ways), reasonably committed fan-base, organized NIL.

If we are missing key resources to being successful, as the coach, CM needs to call them out lest folks think he's the resource at issue.

 

[SpiderGuy]

Yeah, and not 1 higher level program has even inquired about Mooney for the good part of the last decade. Wonder why???

Too much winning on a consistent basis?😜

 

[GKiller]

So you're acknowledging that the Bonnie's AD likely qualify what they consider success (compared to other programs) because of external factors that may make it harder to succeed there relative to other places? There have been a lot of things about UR external factors, notably academic standard that had made it harder to succeed here too. Allegedly that has changed recently, which is why Mooney has had more success here the past 5 years. You mentioned that the "resources & advantages we have at UR over St. Bona are enumerable" but when I bring that up saying the same thing about us compared VCU/Dayton, your reply is we shouldn't be making excuses since they are in the same conference as us.

I agree with 8legs1dream I don't care what the Bonnies AD does or how views anything there. I'm not a stakeholder of St Bonaventure that is up to them, I am a stakeholder of Richmond.

But if u r suggesting the difference of resources btw UR & Bona is similar to UR & VCU I call bs. like mr. spider I don't get that comparison honestly. Go to Olean check it out.

This idea that VCU has all the advantages over UR? Sorry that is little Ol' Richmond mentality. Their biggest advantage is an expectation & accountability to winning = CULTURE. But we have that ability if we wanted. They have a much bigger fanbase as result of much bigger school which is an advantage. It probably ends there. Sure they can admit anyone too & I get that argument. But many would say we can get guys who would never consider VCU. But the resources r overblown. Literally we're both in Richmond. We have more $ if we wanted to dedicate even more of it to bball. We have a much better arena. Better education. Better campus. A better bball history before VCU took off w things. A big head start on a better conference of A10. Less skinny jeans, eyebrow piercings and crack cocaine.

I still remember SpiderTrap once saying if u decide to run a marathon with 1 shoe that's your fault nobody else. Funny line. A blue bird out of Trap, but every once in a while he hits. Literally the only thing we can't control is size of school/size of fanbase.

Is Xavier complaining about how much better Cincinnati has it? idk but I highly doubt it.

 

[MrTbone]

Every team in the country was operating under the same COVID bonus year rules so I don't see how that should diminish from the 2022 A10 championship at all.

It’s not comparative to other teams, it’s that some folks like to count the Covid vacated season as a tournament bid without also acknowledging that we wouldn’t have had many of those players for the 2022 AQ bid had they not granted the Covid extension.

I don’t get hung up on this, even if you’re being generous it’s still only 4 bids in 20+ seasons instead of 3. It’s weak either way.

 

[SpiderAlways]

haha, u r so right this could be our slogan. I would make it my avatar if I didn't fear for AnnapSpider's blood pressure.

Dude, you kill me!😂

 

[ur2K]

17 you may be blurring the lines here a bit.

We have the commitment in terms of resources - it is one of the items I believe we mostly agree upon. Someone posted the numbers here awhile back for the A10. I don't recall where Bona fell but I seem to recall it was that Bona spent about $2.9m on their bball program while UR spent about $4.2m on our program (this is as of 4-5 years ago IIRC.) Significant % difference of about 44%. UR was around 90th-100th in spending, while VCU, Dayton and SLU were in top 75 at about $5.9m. Unsure how NIL may have contributed to a jump since then.

The results don't seem to match the resources for the level of financial, NIL, facilities and other support (sans marketing) for the program. 40% of years of the last 20 are .500 or below. 2 of every 5, with an average NCAA appearance of only 1 in more than every 6 years.

Say. what you will but pressure at Dayton forced Brian Gregory to jump ship while he still could, after winning at a .647 clip at Dayton. Anthony Grant has a .660 winning % there but was facing heat a couple times as well. Mike Rhodes felt it at VCU in his first 3 years.

The burners are pretty cold here.

And that mf'er Brian Gregory blocked Moondog's path to getting the Georgia Tech job by taking it. Root cause of our woes = Brian Gregory.

 

[GKiller]

Dude, you kill me!😂

Miss seeing u. Good times.

 

[SpiderAlways]

Miss seeing u. Good times.

Same!

 

[spider23]

Sorry that is little Ol' Richmond mentality

This is enemy number 1. It is just so hard to compete from our lil ol leafy campus, with our IVY league academics (wink wink). We are doing the best we can!!

 

[97spiderfan]

Anyone else get a Spider blast e-mail this morning from Moon dog asking for a donation to the Spider fund to support MBB. Maybe just maybe we should wait until after we get our first D-1 win of the year before sending this out. Just ridiculously bad timing.

 

[97spiderfan]

I agree with 8legs1dream I don't care what the Bonnies AD does or how views anything there. I'm not a stakeholder of St Bonaventure that is up to them, I am a stakeholder of Richmond.

But if u r suggesting the difference of resources btw UR & Bona is similar to UR & VCU I call bs. like mr. spider I don't get that comparison honestly. Go to Olean check it out.

This idea that VCU has all the advantages over UR? Sorry that is little Ol' Richmond mentality. Their biggest advantage is an expectation & accountability to winning = CULTURE. But we have that ability if we wanted. They have a much bigger fanbase as result of much bigger school which is an advantage. It probably ends there. Sure they can admit anyone too & I get that argument. But many would say we can get guys who would never consider VCU. But the resources r overblown. Literally we're both in Richmond. We have more $ if we wanted to dedicate even more of it to bball. We have a much better arena. Better education. Better campus. A better bball history before VCU took off w things. A big head start on a better conference of A10. Less skinny jeans, eyebrow piercings and crack cocaine.

I still remember SpiderTrap once saying if u decide to run a marathon with 1 shoe that's your fault nobody else. Funny line. A blue bird out of Trap, but every once in a while he hits. Literally the only thing we can't control is size of school/size of fanbase.

Is Xavier complaining about how much better Cincinnati has it? idk but I highly doubt it.

All of this. Our main limitation at UR is a self-imposed one from leadership that does strive nor demand for anything better. A small vision will always lead to limited results.

 

[MrTbone]

Anyone else get a Spider blast e-mail this morning from Moon dog asking for a donation to the Spider fund to support MBB. Maybe just maybe we should wait until after we get our first D-1 win of the year before sending this out. Just ridiculously bad timing.

In their defense, they are currently doing their annual EOY fundraising, so it's not specific to MBB and the timing is independent of any particular sport.

But of course it's going to land badly given what's transpired so far.

 

[97spiderfan]

In their defense, they are currently doing their annual EOY fundraising, so it's not specific to MBB and the timing is independent of any particular sport.

But of course it's going to land badly given what's transpired so far.

Gotcha. Makes sense. Still could have waited until tomorrow in the hopes that we can beat mighty Maine tonight and at least have a little goodwill going with the fanbase.