Mens: NET '24-'25 Rankings

[97spiderfan]

If the argument is he should have been fired after the 20 loss seasons, fine. I have said, even though I would not have done it based on who we had coming back in 2020, I can see the point. But, now? I don't get the talk on here. When during the past 5 seasons would you have fired him?

I think the argument is rather why do we extend him again after last year?

He was just extended in 2022 after the NCAA bid and then he followed that with a dud year. Last year with a team full of seniors and 5th year players, we won the regular season title, which was great, but we also were no where close to an at large due to a lackluster OOC performance and then 3 losses to close the regular season. So, roster wise, last year was an NCAA year, but we were never in consideration for an NCAA bid and got bounced first round in the A-10 tourney.

I wouldn't have considered an extension until 2026, when he had 1 year left on his contract and then evaluated what he did in 2024, 2025, and 2026 to see if he was succeeding in this new portal era. If that pisses him and his agent off, oh well, go try and find a better salary, situation somewhere else (which a good AD would have known their is no better situation for him).

 

[SpiderGuy]

If the argument is he should have been fired after the 20 loss seasons, fine. I have said, even though I would not have done it based on who we had coming back in 2020, I can see the point. But, now? I don't get the talk on here. When during the past 5 seasons would you have fired him?

My point is tenure body of work and results; not selected periods of time. You honestly can’t say a period of time is a prevailing trend. As one example of this, one only needs to look at reasonable success last year followed by struggles this year. So far no continuity regardless of reasons, justifications, or excuses. There are plenty of periods over the last 20 years to support why Moon is a 55 pct long termer. Can you admit that we could be better and do better with another coach. We certainly know what to expect results wise with this guy. Certainly plays to his pct.

 

[VT4700]

So, all of this anger just because we extended him from what was 2027 to through 2029? Wow. Okay.

 

[VT4700]

My point is tenure body of work and results; not selected periods of time. You honestly can’t say a period of time is a prevailing trend. As one example of this, one only needs to look at reasonable success last year followed by struggles this year. So far no continuity regardless of reasons, justifications, or excuses. There are plenty of periods over the last 20 years to support why Moon is a 55 pct long termer. Can you admit that we could be better and do better with another coach. We certainly know what to expect results wise with this guy. Certainly plays to his pct.

So, when over the past 5 seasons would you have fired him?

 

[SpiderGuy]

So, when over the past 5 seasons would you have fired him?

There’s your go to look back period. Easy to take productive years (micro view) and throw away bad and subpar years as well as 20 year body of work (macro view). Based upon his body of work there are several points to have moved on. How about one example - back to back 20 loss seasons? Unless things turn around significantly from what we’re seeing this year so far, good chance a decent year like last year will probably be followed by ANOTHER poor year. 55 pct forever, but it’s good enough.

 

[spider23]

Here's you go SpiderGuy,
Here is the comp to good mid major programs and coaches:
But we can't do that here, the excuses change and rotate over the years, but results are consistent:

Richmond (Mooney Regime) 19 seasons
.564 win %
4 NCAA Years (21% success rate) - Note: So i dont get whining - I am including the covid shutdown as an NCAA season.

SDSU (Dutcher Regime) 7 Seasons
.751 win %
6 NCAA Years (85% success rate)

St. Mary's (Randy Bennet Regime) 24 Seasons
.712 win %
11 NCAA Years (46% success rate)

VCU (Years equivalent to Mooney Regime)
.715 win %
13 NCAA Years (68% success rate)

 

[VT4700]

There’s your go to look back period. Easy to take productive years (micro view) and throw away bad and subpar years as well as 20 year body of work (macro view). Based upon his body of work there are several points to have moved on. How about one example - back to back 20 loss seasons? Unless things turn around significantly from what we’re seeing this year so far, good chance a decent year like last year will probably be followed by ANOTHER poor year. 55 pct forever, but it’s good enough.

So, when over the last 5 seasons would you have fired him?

 

[SpiderGuy]

Here's you go SpiderGuy,
Here is the comp to good mid major programs and coaches:
But we can't do that here, the excuses change and rotate over the years, but results are consistent:

Richmond (Mooney Regime) 19 seasons
.564 win %
4 NCAA Years (21% success rate) - Note: So i dont get whining - I am including the covid shutdown as an NCAA season.

SDSU (Dutcher Regime) 7 Seasons
.751 win %
6 NCAA Years (85% success rate)

St. Mary's (Randy Bennet Regime) 24 Seasons
.712 win %
11 NCAA Years (46% success rate)

VCU (Years equivalent to Mooney Regime)
.715 win %
13 NCAA Years (68% success rate)

Thx - good stuff. Comparing our history to those schools, we really fall off the charts of success.

I will disagree on one point, and you already addressed that. I'd throw out the 4th NCAA year for us as it didn't happen. There's plenty to discuss, & it's been addressed up & down in several other posts. Bottom line - we make NCAA's about once every 6 plus years under Moon, and the most recent gap was about 10 years???? Good enough for some, but not not good enough for most that post here.

 

[SpiderGuy]

So, when over the last 5 seasons would you have fired him?

He would have been fired long before that, but you continue to ground yourself in stagnant periods of time & dismiss his long term results.

If you had a financial advisor that performed like Moon, I'd hope you'd have parted ways long ago because you'd have under-performed the market & probably gotten a safe return along the line of conservative CD's.

 

[spiderman]

once we gave Mooney the 10 year extension (admitted not smart or necessary), our hands were tied for a long time. too big a check to write.

we could have pulled the trigger after the 2nd 20 loss season but I remember feeling like VT that I wanted to see him with that team. he had a lot coming back and they were ready to win. and it worked out. that was a really good year. firing him there ... that year might not have happened.

and while you hate the 5 year view ... there's no point since that 2019-20 season that we'd fire him. it had to be earlier.

as for the extensions, I agree unneccessary. unless clauses in his contract kicked in. we don't know.

 

[GKiller]

So, all of this anger just because we extended him from what was 2027 to through 2029? Wow. Okay.

It's important. we once again stupidly painted ourselves into a corner. the very few times we produce ncaa (or just about in the case of 19-20') he actually has some pressure or feel it will be coming very soon. I knew & predicted extension was coming but still monumentally stupid. that was a big hat no cattle move. losing season + NIT season where we weren't near bid ultimately = extension for Mooney! but u were screaming to fire Tony Bennett. incredible.

Anyway if no extension & then he had a bad year like this one now he's feeling some pressure going into 25-26 w just 2 years left. Maybe time to produce. Now he can do things like redshirt McGlothin & JRob - something u r against - bc he has much less pressure & he can reset and hope that class works out for the next time he may possibly be under pressure, which is much farther down the road. It's great for Mooney, best security in the country for the worst rivalry and bad season coach of all time for his level/tenure. Just sucks for the rest of us.

So, when over the past 5 seasons would you have fired him?

after last season. instead of extension. bye bye. I realize U of R would never do it so not realistic but for the fun of it u can still make a good case. why? the complete disaster ending after the net cutting. & nobody could argue we never showed the coach patience, he got that in spades. But main reason...last year would have been 1st time he got to NCAA without his normal "cycle" & long tenured players, it would have been an anomaly for us. But didn't happen and then reasonable to predict we go into the here we go again Mooney reset (40% down years). I think I'm blocked & u won't see this anyway. but hey u asked the question. It would have said we r not going to be the little Ol' Richmond of comfortability. that said I'm way more upset by extension bc it was at least reasonable to hope our leadership would demonstrate some critical thinking

 

[MrTbone]

If the argument is he should have been fired after the 20 loss seasons, fine. I have said, even though I would not have done it based on who we had coming back in 2020, I can see the point. But, now? I don't get the talk on here. When during the past 5 seasons would you have fired him?

Only speaking for myself but I’m not advocating he should be or should have been fired in the last five seasons. But what you see as a promising trend I view as “more of the same”.

We know what we have with CM. I’m 100% prepared to gamble with a new coach, I’d seriously take the downside just to be going in a new direction.

As it stands now, UR basketball has lost the vast majority of its appeal, and I say this as a 30+ year fan. I’m looking for a reason to be excited again.

 

[SpiderGuy]

It's important. we once again stupidly painted ourselves into a corner. the very few times we produce ncaa (or just about in the case of 19-20') he actually has some pressure or feel it will be coming very soon. I knew & predicted extension was coming but still monumentally stupid. that was a big hat no cattle move. losing season + NIT season where we weren't near bid ultimately = extension for Mooney! but u were screaming to fire Tony Bennett. incredible.

Anyway if no extension & then he had a bad year like this one now he's feeling some pressure going into 25-26 w just 2 years left. Maybe time to produce. Now he can do things like redshirt McGlothin & JRob - something u r against - bc he has much less pressure & he can reset and hope that class works out for the next time he may possibly be under pressure, which is much farther down the road. It's great for Mooney, best security in the country for the worst rivalry and bad season coach of all time for his level/tenure. Just sucks for the rest of us.


after last season. instead of extension. bye bye. I realize U of R would never do it so not realistic but for the fun of it u can still make a good case. why? the complete disaster ending after the net cutting. & nobody could argue we never showed the coach patience, he got that in spades. But main reason...last year would have been 1st time he got to NCAA without his normal "cycle" & long tenured players, it would have been an anomaly for us. But didn't happen and then reasonable to predict we go into the here we go again Mooney reset (40% down years). I think I'm blocked & u won't see this anyway. but hey u asked the question. It would have said we r not going to be the little Ol' Richmond of comfortability. that said I'm way more upset by extension bc it was at least reasonable to hope our leadership would demonstrate some critical thinking

Great post. This is about as logical as it gets. Enjoyed the read. Thx.

 

[spider23]

Yes anger because we just keep kicking the can. So in 30 years we get 7 exciting seasons. Oh EFFING Boy. Love the Mooney plants on this board. Too funny. Oh well, enjoying the heck out of watching the Tecs this year.

 

[VT4700]

He would have been fired long before that, but you continue to ground yourself in stagnant periods of time & dismiss his long term results.

If you had a financial advisor that performed like Moon, I'd hope you'd have parted ways long ago because you'd have under-performed the market & probably gotten a safe return along the line of conservative CD's.

Cool. Figured you wouldn't be able to answer that. So, you wouldn't have fired him the past 5 years, but long before that. Okay. All good. I already said several times on here I could see the point of those that felt that, even if I disagreed. Funny that we still hear this on here in 2024, as if it is 2019 right now.

 

[VT4700]

Yes anger because we just keep kicking the can. So in 30 years we get 7 exciting seasons. Oh EFFING Boy. Love the Mooney plants on this board. Too funny. Oh well, enjoying the heck out of watching the Tecs this year.

Were you angry in 2020, 2022, and 2024 too? Oh yea, sorry, I forgot, "2020 doesn't count", "2022 was frustrating because we underachieved in the regular season", and "2024 was a terrible year because we didn't go dancing". I have heard all of this from you and others nemerous times on here. Anything to downplay our accomplishments because as a fan, it's no fun to cheer for success, right? Much more fun to vent and be angry on here, right? So, you and others gave more weight to the regular season in 2022, but somehow 2 years later you give more weight to the tourney. Funny.

 

[VT4700]

Only speaking for myself but I’m not advocating he should be or should have been fired in the last five seasons. But what you see as a promising trend I view as “more of the same”.

We know what we have with CM. I’m 100% prepared to gamble with a new coach, I’d seriously take the downside just to be going in a new direction.

As it stands now, UR basketball has lost the vast majority of its appeal, and I say this as a 30+ year fan. I’m looking for a reason to be excited again.

While I disagree, I get your opinion and fair points you make here.

 

[spider23]

Were you angry in 2020, 2022, and 2024 too? Oh yea, sorry, I forgot, "2020 doesn't count", "2022 was frustrating because we underachieved in the regular season", and "2024 was a terrible year because we didn't go dancing". I have heard all of this from you and others nemerous times on here. Anything to downplay our accomplishments because as a fan, it's no fun to cheer for success, right? Much more fun to vent and be angry on here, right? So, you and others gave more weight to the regular season in 2022, but somehow 2 years later you give more weight to the tourney. Funny.

Mooney lover. Boy oh boy. Again. I like Richmond. You are a Mooney boy.

 

[VT4700]

Mooney lover. Boy oh boy. Again. I like Richmond. You are a Mooney boy.

All good, 23. We can just agree to disagree. Sorry if my last post went a little overboard. I don't want to go back and forth arguing with you all night.

 

[spider23]

I give weight to NCAA. Mooney has a terrible record getting to the dance. But carry on, we will probably win 3 games in a row in the A10 at some point this year and mooniocrity will be the best again.

 

[SpiderAlways]

So, when over the last 5 seasons would you have fired him?

I’d fire him today. There’s your answer smart guy. Today!

 

[brooklyn brownstone]

Honestly if this season continues as it has, there is a fine case to let Moon go in March 2025.

-3rd straight season of no NCAA tournament, or even a whiff of a bubble mention in any of the three seasons.
-Coming off a likely NET in the 200s, bottom half of NCAA should be utterly unacceptable.
-Quite possibly a second losing season in three.
-Staring at a similar scenario in 2026 as this season, based on roster construction.

The portal era is one where if you are program with resources you can and should be able to reload yearly and be in the mix. Not follow an NCAA with two losing seasons in three. The season in between was nice but ultimately a letdown as has been said, given the mix of 4th/5th year portal seniors loading the rotation. No NCAA, not even a bubble mention, out 1st round of the A10s. It needed to be the NCAA payoff year. It wasn't close.

Three years is long enough to that recruits and current players won't have any connection to the team that beat Iowa. It will be distant history to them and they will only see a program in worse shape in 2025 than it was when it last made the NCAAs. One that in the portal era isn't fulfilling the primary metric - NCAA tournament appearances.

The portal moves things along. Not building an NCAA team for 3 years after that 2022 NCAA appearance - just like after 2010 and 2011 - along with the losing trend, is enough of a repeat of history to show that it's time. We already have losing to Marist, losing to Bucknell and a Charlotte meltdown going in the Matrix deja vu version of UR hoops this season. I don't need 11 years in between appearances again to hammer the point home.

 

[spider23]

Honestly if this season continues as it has, there is a fine case to let Moon go in March 2025.

-3rd straight season of no NCAA tournament, or even a whiff of a bubble mention in any of the three seasons.
-Coming off a likely NET in the 200s, bottom half of NCAA should be utterly unacceptable.
-Quite possibly a second losing season in three.
-Staring at a similar scenario in 2026 as this season, based on roster construction.

Right, that is how top mid major programs, not "mooney proclaimed top program" operate - they expect more. We are operating in a paradigm in which we more compare ourselves to Duquesne, Umass, LaSalle, etc of the landscape, rather than Utah State, SDSU, VCU, St. Mary's. That is part of the underlying problem.

 

[GKiller]

Yes Brooklyn. but that is where the contract extension now screws us. he's insulated. thats how we operate not like the top end mid majors as mentioned aboved. mindset. leafy. its hard. I've never heard cake eaters tell others this often how hard they have it.

this is why the coach can propose our two freshman to redshirt. he's got more time even tho student17 will tell how its such a crazy outlandish concept.

 

[GKiller]

Only speaking for myself but I’m not advocating he should be or should have been fired in the last five seasons. But what you see as a promising trend I view as “more of the same”.

We know what we have with CM. I’m 100% prepared to gamble with a new coach, I’d seriously take the downside just to be going in a new direction.

As it stands now, UR basketball has lost the vast majority of its appeal, and I say this as a 30+ year fan. I’m looking for a reason to be excited again.

Agree. but it's really not a big gamble. Of course there is no guarantee & we could make a bad hire, but that's a much lower probablilty. 3 out of the 4 prior coaches at UR had better results than Mooney. the argument saying gosh who could we get to replace Mooney I find the most absurd.

 

[spider23]

Agree. but it's really not a big gamble. Of course there is no guarantee & we could make a bad hire, but that's a much lower probablilty. 3 out of the 4 prior coaches at UR had better results than Mooney. the argument saying gosh who could we get to replace Mooney I find the most absurd.

The issue is twofold though. I would be fine with getting rid of Mooney. I do think with the remaining 2/3 of the triumvirate still in place (Hardt/PQ) we are more than likely to get someone very similar, or possibly worse. We would probably be looking to steal Paulsen away from Holy Cross.

But seriously, I think we are still a desired spot, if we handled search correctly, we should come away with a very good - and hopefully rising star type coach. But again, no clue how Hardt would try to run a search.

 

[spiderman]

I think we all agree the extension wasn't a smart move unless it was guaranteed in his contract for meeting some hurdles.

if he really is under contract now until 2029, I just don't know that we have the appetite to write that check to can him even if we lose 20 this year. it's a big nut for the school to swallow. and I doubt a PQ wants to write it either.

hopefully we start winning and the issue fades.

 

[SpiderGuy]

The issue is twofold though. I would be fine with getting rid of Mooney. I do think with the remaining 2/3 of the triumvirate still in place (Hardt/PQ) we are more than likely to get someone very similar, or possibly worse. We would probably be looking to steal Paulsen away from Holy Cross.

But seriously, I think we are still a desired spot, if we handled search correctly, we should come away with a very good - and hopefully rising star type coach. But again, no clue how Hardt would try to run a search.

If odds were placed, me thinks they’ll never let Mooney go regardless of any performance measures. Better probability is he leaves when he chooses. Could be here another twenty years with 3 more NCAA appearances, and that would be good enough. Sprinkle in another snapshot in time of a magical 5 year period, and that would put a smile on some faces justifying more and more and more of the same.

 

[97spiderfan]

I think we all agree the extension wasn't a smart move unless it was guaranteed in his contract for meeting some hurdles.

if he really is under contract now until 2029, I just don't know that we have the appetite to write that check to can him even if we lose 20 this year. it's a big nut for the school to swallow. and I doubt a PQ wants to write it either.

hopefully we start winning and the issue fades.

Is it that big of a nut though? Texas A&M paid Jimbo Fisher over 75 million when they fired him. Sure, we don't have the resources of Texas A&M but we would also be paying out probably less than a tenth of that to Mooney. That is a lot but if we fire him, we probably are not paying all of it out and can pay it over time.

We've got 3 billion in our endowment, we are constantly building/renovating on campus, we have money. Let's not pretend 7 million is going to break the bank and if it did, we should never have signed that contract in the first place, especially to a coach, where everyone knows going in, those jobs often end in some type of termination (well most colleges, not here though).

PQ is his buddy and that is probably the main issue. If there are other big donors that want Mooney gone, none of them have as much power as PQ and maybe his inner circle of Mooney loving buddies.

 

[8legs1dream]

I'm so glad to see the Mooney plants and shills are getting called out for what they are, let em have it boys!!!

 

[brooklyn brownstone]

FWIW, I'm fully aware that the extension means that there is zero chance Moon is let go after this year. As stated above:

1. It looks terribly on Hardt to dole out an extension and reverse course one year later, costing the school several million $. He's not taking that kind of heat.
2. Moon has the backing of the one person who could singlehandedly force a change and pay to course-correct it, regardless of optics.

but the question of when would I / we have let Moon go was asked and it's fair enough, so I provided what I see as a reasonable case over a 3 year period of zero NCAAs or even NCAA bubble mentions, with (possibly) 2 losing seasons in that 3 year span. Taken objectively with criteria being NCAAs as program relevance, it's a reasonable argument. Looking at historic patterns of success is also reasonable and not encouraging for the metric of NCAA bids in the near future.

Especially if you look only at the portal era period - the current era we are in with hoops now - of this year and the prior two. UR hasn't sniffed the at large discussion these 3 portal seasons. If a 4th year of irrelevance happens next year, what then? Just keep waiting until portal magic coincides with unlikely (based on historical patterns) OOC results?

 

[97spiderfan]

FWIW, I'm fully aware that the extension means that there is zero chance Moon is let go after this year. As stated above:

1. It looks terribly on Hardt to dole out an extension and reverse course one year later, costing the school several million $. He's not taking that kind of heat.
2. Moon has the backing of the one person who could singlehandedly force a change and pay to course-correct it, regardless of optics.

but the question of when would I / we have let Moon go was asked and it's fair enough, so I provided what I see as a reasonable case over a 3 year period of zero NCAAs or even NCAA bubble mentions, with (possibly) 2 losing seasons in that 3 year span. Taken objectively with criteria being NCAAs as program relevance, it's a reasonable argument. Looking at historic patterns of success is also reasonable and not encouraging for the metric of NCAA bids in the near future.

Especially if you look only at the portal era period - the current era we are in with hoops now - of this year and the prior two. UR hasn't sniffed the at large discussion these 3 portal seasons. If a 4th year of irrelevance happens next year, what then? Just keep waiting until portal magic coincides with unlikely (based on historical patterns) OOC results?

I think maybe if we have another losing year next year, the seat would get warm again. I think folks on this board who feel passionately would need to up the energy at that point to take the seat from warm to hot. The petition a few years back was an attempt at that. Who knows if it would have successful because Gilly went on the miracle run and took us to the NCAA. It would have been very interesting had we lost the first round game in which we were down double digits. Some bigger donors were already turning on Mooney prior to that run. Yes, PQ was still gonna be his buddy, but there was a train rolling down the track and it was gaining momentum.

 

[brooklyn brownstone]

I'll state for the record, to pre-empt the inevitable criticism, that I hope UR turns this season around in a big way and is very successful next season. I want the Spiders to win, always, and to win big consistently. To make the NCAAs very regularly. I don't understand any mentality that doesn't agree that the NCAA is the primary and only real goal. The vast majority of my posts are motivated by frustration that this does not happen, while trying to look realistically at the causes.

 

[brooklyn brownstone]

Also want to get on the record that "cake eaters" is my new favorite phrase. Well done.

 

[spider fan]

So....what's the take on how NIL affects a coach's tenure? Do those contributing to NIL have more of a "stake" in the sports program than previously even considering the similiar equivalence to gifts to a school's sports funding before NIL. Is there a substaintial difference? Recognize gifts are used differently by paying players directly but effect on coach has some equilivance. And easy to give "cake eaters" terminology "props" as very descriptive...................

 

[spiderman]

ncaa tournament is the goal. well actual wins in the tournament.
but last year was a fun season to me. as was 21-22 and 19-20.
if I couldn't enjoy seasons like those, I'd have to rethink my hobby.

 

[SpiderRick]

This is what you get when younger fairly recent grads are arguing with old red sweater vest coots who still remember the years when we would play Va Tech and WVa most every year in football, bowl bids, a National Championship. In basketball Dick Tarrant with 5 NCAAs and 4 NITs ( when it was hard to get in to) in just 12 years.

We have different frames of reference....makes it difficult to settle an argument.

 

[GKiller]

Guys u r welcome to repurpose cake eaters. while it's fair to have some intellectual property on the board, I’m a big tent guy! Borrow as needed. Heck I know I’ve used jabba the hardt or flying dutchman.

& u know it’s ok to be a cake eater. But for f sake don’t keep saying how hard things are.

 

[spiderman]

I hope you're not taking credit for creating the term "cake eater".

 

[urmite]

I hope you're not taking credit for creating the term "cake eater".

Qu'ils mangent de la brioche