Looking at the stats that are leaving...

[Gospiders06]

Season stats from ESPN: (Ranked based on Richmond stats from last year)

What's leaving:

Khwan Fore: 74 foul shots made second on team, 319 point fourth.

Buckingham: 91 foul shots made first, 35 threes made third best, 366 points tied for third, 210 rebounds second 103 assists second, third-most blocks on the team. However, second most turnovers.

I know every year is different but this what's leaving....

Also, losing two players that had 900 plus minutes on the floor. That's probably where it hurts most.

 

[Gospiders06]

We are going to miss Khwan Fore's experience most and his athleticism

Buckingham we will miss his ability to drive and score. Also being clutch at the foul line.

 

[ChoppinBroccoli]

We are going to miss Khwan Fore's experience most and his athleticism

Buckingham we will miss his ability to drive and score. Also being clutch at the foul line.

Buck was the best rebounder we had, even if he wasn't our leading rebounder.

 

[Gospiders06]

Just something to think about...

 

[VT4700]

Have you seen the stats that are leaving from other teams?

 

[VT_Spider]

Have you seen the stats that are leaving from other teams?

I'm sure you're right that there are some big time stats leaving from other teams but at the same time most if not all A10 teams have been recruiting g better than us recently and have a lot more talent coming in or talent that just hasn't played as much. We have neither of those things going for us.

 

[Eight Legger]

Have you seen the stats that are leaving from other teams?

The league was incredibly young last year. Tell us more about all the other teams that lost two starters to something other than graduation...

 

[VT4700]

The league was incredibly young last year. Tell us more about all the other teams that lost two starters to something other than graduation...

Why does "other than graduation" matter? If you lost starters, you lost starters.

 

[fan2011]

The league was incredibly young last year. Tell us more about all the other teams that lost two starters to something other than graduation...

Dayton lost 2 players who started this year to things other than graduation. Kostas is pursuing professional basketball, Xeyrius is transferring. Duquesne is losing starters Tarin Smith and Tydus Verhoeven to transferring. Fordham is losing Chartouny and Havsa, both starters, both transferring. GW looks like it is only losing one starter to transferring so far, Nolan. UMass only losing one starter to transfer so far as well, Hines. Saint Louis dismissed 3 players (and kicked them out of school I believe) right before the season started, and may dismiss a fourth, Goodwin, their star freshmen and a starter before they suspended him. He is suspended from school for at least a year I believe.

That is just in the A10, where at least 4 teams have lost 2 starters to something other than graduation, and almost half of teams have lost at least one starter to something other than graduation. It is an epidemic that has struck many teams besides our own.

 

[Eight Legger]

Dayton lost 2 players who started this year to things other than graduation. Kostas is pursuing professional basketball, Xeyrius is transferring. Duquesne is losing starters Tarin Smith and Tydus Verhoeven to transferring. Fordham is losing Chartouny and Havsa, both starters, both transferring. GW looks like it is only losing one starter to transferring so far, Nolan. UMass only losing one starter to transfer so far as well, Hines. Saint Louis dismissed 3 players (and kicked them out of school I believe) right before the season started, and may dismiss a fourth, Goodwin, their star freshmen and a starter before they suspended him. He is suspended from school for at least a year I believe.

That is just in the A10, where at least 4 teams have lost 2 starters to something other than graduation, and almost half of teams have lost at least one starter to something other than graduation. It is an epidemic that has struck many teams besides our own.

Thanks. Looking at those teams and players, I think it's fair to say Fordham, Duquesne and UMass are bottom-feeders in the league, which explains why players would want to leave. Two had new coaches, too. And the two guys who left Dayton combined to average 10 points a game. Not exactly worldbeaters. Dayton also had a new coach.

St. Louis beat us twice with most of those guys missing last year even when we had Buck and Khwan.

VT, if players leave because they graduate, it means you are planning for their departures. If they leave unexpectedly, it means you were caught off guard. No other team lost the level of talent we did. I bet no other team at our level (whatever that is, these days) with a coach in his 14th year lost 20 something points per game off its roster unexpectedly like this.

 

[VT4700]

Thanks. Looking at those teams and players, I think it's fair to say Fordham, Duquesne and UMass are bottom-feeders in the league, which explains why players would want to leave. Two had new coaches, too. And the two guys who left Dayton combined to average 10 points a game. Not exactly worldbeaters. Dayton also had a new coach.

St. Louis beat us twice with most of those guys missing last year even when we had Buck and Khwan.

VT, if players leave because they graduate, it means you are planning for their departures. If they leave unexpectedly, it means you were caught off guard. No other team lost the level of talent we did. I bet no other team at our level (whatever that is, these days) with a coach in his 14th year lost 20 something points per game off its roster unexpectedly like this.

Yes, SLU beat us twice, but I can easily counter that by saying we beat Davidson and VCU twice.

You can plan all you want for graduating departures, but that does not mean you can replace them. Do you really think because Khwan and Buck left unexpectedly that is a bigger blow than Rhode Island losing Terrell and Matthews ( combined 30.3 ppg) and 2 other starters to graduation? Or, St Bona. losing Adams and Mobley (38.3 ppg)? Or, Davidson losing Aldridge (21.5 ppg)? Or, SJU losing Newkirk and Demery (34.3 ppg)? Do you think those guys will all be easily replaced with similar talent?

And, how was the A-10 a young conference last year when I just listed the top 4 teams who lost 7 of their top 8 scorers combined?

 

[Eight Legger]

You're right, I stand corrected. I think we are likely to win the league this year given the attrition elsewhere and our sudden influx of talent.

 

[ur2K]

VT - do you like Chris Mooney as the coach/leader of our program and the status of the program or just really enjoy being the contrarian of the board?

 

[Spiders05]

You're right, I stand corrected. I think we are likely to win the league this year given the attrition elsewhere and our sudden influx of talent.

I'm calling out this particular post for a couple reasons...

• This post is a prime example of the epidemic that has come over this board.
• You're a better poster than this eample.
• Literally nothing posted above in this thread mentions winning the league. There was good back and forth, supported by some real information and then we went to a position of, "well then I guess all is fine and we're a S16 team."
• Why is it that we can't focus on discussing the analysis and instead people jump to, "we're only going to win 5 games" or sarcastically go to, "I guess we're winning the conference."

Fact is that there are a lot of teams losing high scoring players and there are a lot of teams with unexpected losses, like us (this is not to diminish our losses at all).

 

[Spiders05]

VT - do you like Chris Mooney as the coach/leader of our program and the status of the program or just really enjoy being the contrarian of the board?

Not sure why it's an either/or. Cant you be both unhappy with the status of the program and the extreme tenor some people take on here at times?

 

[coachfezz]

VT4700


What do like about the defense ?

What do yiu think sbout the double team sonetines from ball screen?

 

[VT4700]

VT - do you like Chris Mooney as the coach/leader of our program and the status of the program or just really enjoy being the contrarian of the board?

Yes, I like Mooney as the coach/leader of this program. No, I was not happy with a 12-20 season and expect us to be a lot better this year. I think we will finish above .500 in the A-10 and compete for a top 4 seed. It is too early to predict more specifically right now, but as we get closer to November, I am hoping to be able to change the compete for a top 4 seed talk to a more confident in a top 4 seed talk. Also, I will say that I will be very, very disappointed if Nick does not get to the tourney, so I will more specifically say since is a Mooney question, I expect Mooney to get us back to the dance in the next 2 seasons (of course, preferably both).

Had every year been like last one, or if every year had been around .500, I would want a change, but I think we would have made the tourney if Ced does not get hurt, a few years ago we were the first team left out, and 2 years ago we went 13-5 in the A-10. No, my hope is not that we are the first team out, and my hope is not an NIT bid, but give me enough years like those and Ced's senior year and we will be dancing again soon.

I think we are in very good shape as a program. I think we have 3 special players in Jacob, Nick, and Grant to build around, and I think it is even better that our top 3 are a PG, a wing, and a big. This makes it easier to put other guys in good roles. We talk on here about what we lost, but seem to forget that these 3 guys averaged over 40 points a game combined, and I expect that to be more this year. How many A-10 teams have that production coming back? Combine that with Sal, Wojcik, Francis, and others, and I feel the future looks very bright.

 

[97spiderfan]

I'm calling out this particular post for a couple reasons...

• This post is a prime example of the epidemic that has come over this board.
• You're a better poster than this eample.
• Literally nothing posted above in this thread mentions winning the league. There was good back and forth, supported by some real information and then we went to a position of, "well then I guess all is fine and we're a S16 team."
• Why is it that we can't focus on discussing the analysis and instead people jump to, "we're only going to win 5 games" or sarcastically go to, "I guess we're winning the conference."

Fact is that there are a lot of teams losing high scoring players and there are a lot of teams with unexpected losses, like us (this is not to diminish our losses at all).

05, here is the deal that some of the more "negative posters" feel.

1. We were all told this past year, wait until next year, when all of this "young" talent gets better and learns to play with each other. At the end of the year, it was just wait because everyone is back and then boom, we lose two of our best players. And now, a month later, we are being told the same EXACT crap we were fed this past year. Just wait until next year (2020, that is because we now have to reboot after losing Khwan and Buck). This might be OK if this was not 7 years of being told the same exact thing.

2. We lost our 2 best defenders off a team that was really a bad defensive team to begin with. Those 2 players, one of them went to a probably preseason Top 10 team, Buck will be highly sought after by BCS programs as well and we our replacing those 2 with two freshman, one of whom, had zero other collegiate offers and neither had anything close to an A-10 level offer. And then we are being told as to how losing those 2 guys we will actually be better next year because of it. Please.

3. How can anyone objectively look at our roster, what we lost, and what we replaced it with and say we are going to have a better team this year. That defies logic. The team is "taller" yes, but my lord skill wise, we lost a lot of talent.

My prediction is we are going to be about a 10-14 win program next year. I think we are going to dumb down our OOC schedule this year to increase win total and then probably win 6-8 games in another weak year of the A-10. We may end up with some Top 4 A-10 finish at the upper end, but it will be completely meaningless, as we will be nowhere near any type of NIT not alone NCAA bid worthy.

Finally, I feel there is a little bit of a concerted effort going on now to try and tone things down because Mooney (and our athletic department) are not used to having any pressure whatsoever and now they got a little pressure on here, on social media, by some local media asking questions and they don't like that.

 

[VT_Spider]

Yes, I like Mooney as the coach/leader of this program. No, I was not happy with a 12-20 season and expect us to be a lot better this year. I think we will finish above .500 in the A-10 and compete for a top 4 seed. It is too early to predict more specifically right now, but as we get closer to November, I am hoping to be able to change the compete for a top 4 seed talk to a more confident in a top 4 seed talk. Also, I will say that I will be very, very disappointed if Nick does not get to the tourney, so I will more specifically say since is a Mooney question, I expect Mooney to get us back to the dance in the next 2 seasons (of course, preferably both).

Had every year been like last one, or if every year had been around .500, I would want a change, but I think we would have made the tourney if Ced does not get hurt, a few years ago we were the first team left out, and 2 years ago we went 13-5 in the A-10. No, my hope is not that we are the first team out, and my hope is not an NIT bid, but give me enough years like those and Ced's senior year and we will be dancing again soon.

I think we are in very good shape as a program. I think we have 3 special players in Jacob, Nick, and Grant to build around, and I think it is even better that our top 3 are a PG, a wing, and a big. This makes it easier to put other guys in good roles. We talk on here about what we lost, but seem to forget that these 3 guys averaged over 40 points a game combined, and I expect that to be more this year. How many A-10 teams have that production coming back? Combine that with Sal, Wojcik, Francis, and others, and I feel the future looks very bright.

The problem is that if we had just one year like this past one things would be alright. However it's been 7 years without an NCAA appearance and that is way too long. Ya like you said we had a good shot to make the dance the year Ced got hurt but I think you and a lot of others forget that we still had the chance to get in after he got hurt with two huge home games towards the end of the year. Guess what happened in those games? We lost both because of Mooney's complete ineptness as a coach and inability to change his defense while those teams continued to just pound the ball inside on us. If I recall vcu didn't even attempt a 3 in the second half against us that year because all they had to do was drive and either score or get fouled. So for that reason Mooney is a God awful coach.

 

[97spiderfan]

The year Ced got hurt. Do people realize that before Ced got hurt, that we were 14-8 (4-3) in the A-10. We had zero big OOC wins and had just lost 2 straight A-10 games prior to his injury, including getting absolutely hammered out in St. Louis.

This is such revisionist history BS. We didn't have the profile of an at large team that year prior to Ced getting hurt.

Maybe had we finished the season 10-1, 9-2 or something of that nature, we would have put ourselves in the past position, but that would have meant the team would have had to play at a whole different level the last third of the season than they did the first 2/3.

 

[fan2011]

The year Ced got hurt. Do people realize that before Ced got hurt, that we were 14-8 (4-3) in the A-10. We had zero big OOC wins and had just lost 2 straight A-10 games prior to his injury, including getting absolutely hammered out in St. Louis.

This is such revisionist history BS. We didn't have the profile of an at large team that year prior to Ced getting hurt.

Maybe had we finished the season 10-1, 9-2 or something of that nature, we would have put ourselves in the past position, but that would have meant the team would have had to play at a whole different level the last third of the season than they did the first 2/3.

Here is an article posted a couple days after Ced got hurt where we were predicted to make the NCAAs: https://www.sbnation.com/2014/2/7/5...-basketball-richmond-byu-lsu-tennessee-bubble

There were many articles like this, we were a bubble team, this is not revisionist history at all. The two losses you just mentioned were away games at two 5 seeds in the NCAA tournament that year, not bad losses at all. We took a big dive after Ced was hurt.

 

[97spiderfan]

Here is an article posted a couple days after Ced got hurt where we were predicted to make the NCAAs: https://www.sbnation.com/2014/2/7/5...-basketball-richmond-byu-lsu-tennessee-bubble

There were many articles like this, we were a bubble team, this is not revisionist history at all. The two losses you just mentioned were away games at two 5 seeds in the NCAA tournament that year, not bad losses at all. We took a big dive after Ced was hurt.

Our best OOC wins were Belmont and Delaware. We had zero quality road wins. We had .630 winning percentage prior to his injury. If we would have the same winning percentage after his injury, we would have won 2 more games than we actually did. 7-4 vs 5-6. We weren't even a NIT team at the end of the year, so 2 more wins and we would have been an NCAA at-large bid. Come on. Yes, we were in the mix, but we we had a fringy bubble profile, when you dug down into it, as the committee would have.

 

[urmite]

Here is an article posted a couple days after Ced got hurt where we were predicted to make the NCAAs: https://www.sbnation.com/2014/2/7/5...-basketball-richmond-byu-lsu-tennessee-bubble

There were many articles like this, we were a bubble team, this is not revisionist history at all. The two losses you just mentioned were away games at two 5 seeds in the NCAA tournament that year, not bad losses at all. We took a big dive after Ced was hurt.

If you look back at it, that was a tough stretch.
We were 11-6 (1-1) and looking like we couldn't climb enough to help.
Then 3 home wins over 11 seed Dayton, 6 seed UMass, 10 seed St Joe, followed by away losses to 5 seed SLU, 5 seed VCU, and injury to Ced...

 

[fan2011]

Our best OOC wins were Belmont and Delaware. We had zero quality road wins. We had .630 winning percentage prior to his injury. If we would have the same winning percentage after his injury, we would have won 2 more games than we actually did. 7-4 vs 5-6. We weren't even a NIT team at the end of the year, so 2 more wins and we would have been an NCAA at-large bid. Come on. Yes, we were in the mix, but we we had a fringy bubble profile, when you dug down into it, as the committee would have.

The A10 was very, very strong that year sending 6 teams to the tournament, 2 top 25 teams, 7 top 50 teams, 10 top 100 teams. It was P5 level in terms of resume building potential. True we only had 1 top 50 and 2 top 100 OOC wins, but we had no bad losses. We had a top 50 RPI, were 4-4 vs the top 50 and had no bad losses before Ced went down. Our resume was on the right side of the bubble before Ced was injured as seen from the objective 3rd party prognosticators.

Here is another example: http://warrennolan.com/basketball/2014/schedule/Richmond
projected 12 and 11 seed before Ced's injury.

 

[VT4700]

The year Ced got hurt. Do people realize that before Ced got hurt, that we were 14-8 (4-3) in the A-10. We had zero big OOC wins and had just lost 2 straight A-10 games prior to his injury, including getting absolutely hammered out in St. Louis.

This is such revisionist history BS. We didn't have the profile of an at large team that year prior to Ced getting hurt.

Maybe had we finished the season 10-1, 9-2 or something of that nature, we would have put ourselves in the past position, but that would have meant the team would have had to play at a whole different level the last third of the season than they did the first 2/3.

The year Ced got hurt, 6 teams from the A-10 made the tourney. Before losing Ced, we had already defeated St. Joe's, #13 UMASS, and Dayton, who each made the tourney. Things were setting up pretty nice for us at 4-3 A-10 and 14-8 overall, but we went 4-5 in the A-10 without Ced and finished 8-8 in the A-10. Dayton and UMASS each got in at 10-6 that year. I definitely think losing a senior PG who was averaging over 18 ppg cost us some wins down the stretch and was the difference in dancing or not. We will never know how many more we would have won with him healthy, but I would assume everyone can agree it is a big blow losing a senior 18 ppg PG.

 

[VT_Spider]

The year Ced got hurt, 6 teams from the A-10 made the tourney. Before losing Ced, we had already defeated St. Joe's, #13 UMASS, and Dayton, who each made the tourney. Things were setting up pretty nice for us at 4-3 A-10 and 14-8 overall, but we went 4-5 in the A-10 without Ced and finished 8-8 in the A-10. Dayton and UMASS each got in at 10-6 that year. I definitely think losing a senior PG who was averaging over 18 ppg cost us some wins down the stretch and was the difference in dancing or not. We will never know how many more we would have won with him healthy, but I would assume everyone can agree it is a big blow losing a senior 18 ppg PG.

Like I said before even without Ced we still had a chance to get in with two huge games at the end of the season against GW and vcu but Mooney crapped the bed against both. We had a chance to win both games but his poor coaching cost us. I will never forget my dad and I screaming from our section for Mooney to switch to a zone and stop both teams from beating us up in the paint. Those two games are what started my distaste for Mooney and ever since then I have wanted him gone. We win both of those games and we likely get in the NCAA tournament.

 

[ChoppinBroccoli]

Candy and nuts.

 

[ChoppinBroccoli]

05, here is the deal that some of the more "negative posters" feel.

1. We were all told this past year, wait until next year, when all of this "young" talent gets better and learns to play with each other. At the end of the year, it was just wait because everyone is back and then boom, we lose two of our best players. And now, a month later, we are being told the same EXACT crap we were fed this past year. Just wait until next year (2020, that is because we now have to reboot after losing Khwan and Buck). This might be OK if this was not 7 years of being told the same exact thing.

2. We lost our 2 best defenders off a team that was really a bad defensive team to begin with. Those 2 players, one of them went to a probably preseason Top 10 team, Buck will be highly sought after by BCS programs as well and we our replacing those 2 with two freshman, one of whom, had zero other collegiate offers and neither had anything close to an A-10 level offer. And then we are being told as to how losing those 2 guys we will actually be better next year because of it. Please.

3. How can anyone objectively look at our roster, what we lost, and what we replaced it with and say we are going to have a better team this year. That defies logic. The team is "taller" yes, but my lord skill wise, we lost a lot of talent.

My prediction is we are going to be about a 10-14 win program next year. I think we are going to dumb down our OOC schedule this year to increase win total and then probably win 6-8 games in another weak year of the A-10. We may end up with some Top 4 A-10 finish at the upper end, but it will be completely meaningless, as we will be nowhere near any type of NIT not alone NCAA bid worthy.

Finally, I feel there is a little bit of a concerted effort going on now to try and tone things down because Mooney (and our athletic department) are not used to having any pressure whatsoever and now they got a little pressure on here, on social media, by some local media asking questions and they don't like that.

Also, Mooney told the press there would be no more attrition. Was he being dishonest or disconnected?

 

[plydogg]

Also, Mooney told the press there would be no more attrition. Was he being dishonest or disconnected?

Personally I can't put a dismissal on the coach. Even if I was a coach and I knew a player was going through hearings that may result in a dismissal this is what I would say to try and force the AD's hand into not dismissing the player as to not make the coach look bad.

 

[plydogg]

Candy and nuts.

I decided to look up the history of this saying and did you know former QB Don Meredith said it during a broadcast with Howard Cosell and is credited with "coining" the phrase. I still think it would sound much better coming from Howard Cosell so everytime I hear it from now on I'm going to read it in his voice.

 

[VT4700]

Like I said before even without Ced we still had a chance to get in with two huge games at the end of the season against GW and vcu but Mooney crapped the bed against both. We had a chance to win both games but his poor coaching cost us. I will never forget my dad and I screaming from our section for Mooney to switch to a zone and stop both teams from beating us up in the paint. Those two games are what started my distaste for Mooney and ever since then I have wanted him gone. We win both of those games and we likely get in the NCAA tournament.

You must be thinking of a different game. VCU beat us 56-50. They were 20-52 from the field. I think you said they did not attempt a 3 in the 2nd half, but In the 2nd half, they made only seven 2 pt FG and five 3 pt FG.

Our starting guards went a combined 7-29 (Kendall 6-18 and Shawndre 1-11) with a combined 8 turnovers. So, yes, it sure looks like we could have used Ced that game.

 

[VT_Spider]

You must be thinking of a different game. VCU beat us 56-50. They were 20-52 from the field. I think you said they did not attempt a 3 in the 2nd half, but In the 2nd half, they made only seven 2 pt FG and five 3 pt FG.

Our starting guards went a combined 7-29 (Kendall 6-18 and Shawndre 1-11) with a combined 8 turnovers. So, yes, it sure looks like we could have used Ced that game.

The GW game that year is more what I am thinking of.

 

[MrTbone]

Candy and nuts.

You said “nuts”...

Heh heh.

 

[Gospiders06]

Just look at TJ Cline, Terry Allen and SDJ they never made it the tourney. I find it amazing since they are top scorers in program history. The winning recipe at Richmond is having 4 to 5 seniors you can rely upon to lead the team. This year we might have one senior. The stat is really gone this upcoming year is free throw attempts. The offense might be much worse this upcoming year. Since Fore and Buckingham scored so many points at the rim and the foul line. It's hard enough finding a double digit scorer but a consistent one. You then factor lack of bench depth and experience. Getting to be a rough ride.

 

[VT4700]

Just look at TJ Cline, Terry Allen and SDJ they never made it the tourney. I find it amazing since they are top scorers in program history. The winning recipe at Richmond is having 4 to 5 seniors you can rely upon to lead the team. This year we might have one senior. The stat is really gone this upcoming year is free throw attempts. The offense might be much worse this upcoming year. Since Fore and Buckingham scored so many points at the rim and the foul line. It's hard enough finding a double digit scorer but a consistent one. You then factor lack of bench depth and experience. Getting to be a rough ride.

I don't see the big deal in losing their free throw attempts. Neither Buck nor Khwan were in the top 20 in the conference in FT made or attempted, and both averaged less than 4 attempts a game. Seems like you might be reaching a little with any concern about this stat.

Hard to find a double digit scorer? We had 5 last year, and 3 are returning.

 

[Marley13]

And 5 is better than 3.

 

[VT_Spider]

Trust me we won't have 5 double digit scores this year.

 

[fan2011]

Trust me we won't have 5 double digit scores this year.

That would be a step in the right direction, indicative of bench production allowing our starters to take a reduced role.

 

[urfan1]

I'm sure he means scorers, otherwise I would take that bet and give him great odds.

 

[iSpider]

You said “nuts”...

Heh heh.

"If "ifs" and "buts" were candy and nuts, we'd all have a merry Christmas."
The aphorism was coined by the Dallas Cowboys quarterback, Don Meredith, who later became a sports commentator for the TV show Monday Night Football in 1970.

17 December 1970, Ada (OK) Evening News, pg. 7, col. 1:
Howard Cosell: “If Los Angeles wins, it’s a big one, but San Francisco is still very much in it.”
Don Meredith: “If ifs and buts were candy and nuts, we’d all have a merry Christmas.”
Howard: “I didn’t think you’d remember that old canard.”
Don: “Is that what it was?”

Source: Barry Popik.com