Is it Mooney or the Players?

[sdspider]

I have been thinking about this lately and wanted to see what the spider brethren think. The premise being a coach is only as good as his players. Certainly there is something to be said for coaching up players but even the best coach with average players is only going to achieve so much.

Mooneys system is still the same thats what we've been griping about but the players change. It's obvious this year that we don't have the talent on defense that we've had in the past. We have more offensive firepower but as we've seen that comes and goes. The old adage that defense wins championships I think rings true with this type of system. At least that's my observation this year.

Losing two upperclassman players in the offseason and then having two players that are a liability on offense but are also not raising our defense up is a problem. Bottom line is we have three good players on offense and not even one standout on defense. I don't disagree with Mooney mixing it up with schemes but I lay the blame on recruiting . I just think it again comes down to the coach is only as good as the guys who are on the court.

 

[Eight Legger]

Eleven years in, same crap every year. Sorry, but I'm blaming the one constant. Mooney signed all these guys and has worked with them all. It all falls on his head one way or another.

 

[I-M-UR]

I have been thinking about this lately and wanted to see what the spider brethren think. The premise being a coach is only as good as his players. Certainly there is something to be said for coaching up players but even the best coach with average players is only going to achieve so much.

Mooneys system is still the same thats what we've been griping about but the players change. It's obvious this year that we don't have the talent on defense that we've had in the past. We have more offensive firepower but as we've seen that comes and goes. The old adage that defense wins championships I think rings true with this type of system. At least that's my observation this year.

Losing two upperclassman players in the offseason and then having two players that are a liability on offense but are also not raising our defense up is a problem. Bottom line is we have three good players on offense and not even one standout on defense. I don't disagree with Mooney mixing it up with schemes but I lay the blame on recruiting . I just think it again comes down to the coach is only as good as the guys who are on the court.

for me having two players that continue to start for 4 years even though they haven't improved their skills at all. Why haven't they improved, why do they continue to get significant playing time, lack of recruits to fill in behind them, lack of improving players skills.........probably all of the above but the coach is utimately responsible for all of it. I still think the defense issue is as much the fact the NCAA is calling fouls much tighter..... It's the team wide shooting slumps I don't understand. But I guess if you only have three starters that can score if they are hitting we aren't scoring. I still think it's a conditioning problem but who knows.

Next year; Marshall may have some hope given more time on the court, Fore has a lot of potential. beyond that what do we have TJ (good), Shawdre (very good), but a next year is a rebuilding year...... the problem is rebuilding after a very disappointing season is very tough on the fans.

 

[72Spider]

CM is wearing his players out by running them in and out of the game. lol!

 

[SpiderGuy]

Eleven years in, same crap every year. Sorry, but I'm blaming the one constant. Mooney signed all these guys and has worked with them all. It all falls on his head one way or another.

Yes.

See Harry Truman.

 

[Not-A-Homer]

The answer is Yes.

Need a few more good players of course. But there have also been quite a few very competitive players that would have had success anywhere. Allen, Cline, Jones, & Fore off of this year's team alone. There may be others on the bench that we never see. It is also easy to argue that the Cedrick Lindsey years should have produced at least 1 bid as well.

There are a number of posters on this board knowledgeable enough to have coached the team into the NCAA tournament this year & last.

 

[fatherspider]

Coaching at the college level is almost everything. There is a trackable history that proves this. Did uva all of a sudden get much better recruits after Pete G left? What about Wichita when Marshall got there? Or Butler? A High level coach would have had far more success with the players we have over the past four years.

 

[72Spider]

Agreed. If you go back to Tarrant's first year in 1981 you saw a much more coached up team than Goetz's last season. Night and day and with essentially the same players. He took the players he had and had them play within themselves and in a system that fit their capabilities.

 

[Eight Legger]

Agreed. If you go back to Tarrant's first year in 1981 you saw a much more coached up team than Goetz's last season. Night and day and with essentially the same players. He took the players he had and had them play within themselves and in a system that fit their capabilities.

No better example of this than Beilein. Took a team of seniors that had been awful for three years under Dooley and turned them into a Round of 32 team. Simply amazing. The talent was there all along, but the coaching was MIA. He provided it and changed the program in one season.

 

[WebSpinner]

not there to see this in person but my instincts tell me that this team has no chemistry or leadership. if we look down at vdu, we see a number of coaches come and go there yet they continue to win and think mainly because they run a system which fits the type of athlete they can obtain there.

 

[SpiderK]

CM is wearing his players out by running them in and out of the game. lol!

Not to mention they are always looking over their shoulder!!

 

[SpiderK]

not there to see this in person but my instincts tell me that this team has no chemistry or leadership. if we look down at vdu, we see a number of coaches come and go there yet they continue to win and think mainly because they run a system which fits the type of athlete they can obtain there.

I have said it a million times, there is NO on court leadership. NONE!!!

 

[Eighth_Leg]

Even if the problem is the players (which I don't think is the case), that's on Mooney. He's the one that brings them in and is responsible for making them better players

 

[SpiderRick]

CM is wearing his players out by running them in and out of the game. lol!

You "lol" but I have been seriously thinking the same thing. And watch how the Spider's players are always looking over to the bench, as if looking for approval or something. I rarely see our opponents doing the same.

 

[fan2011]

Coaching at the college level is almost everything. There is a trackable history that proves this. Did uva all of a sudden get much better recruits after Pete G left? What about Wichita when Marshall got there? Or Butler? A High level coach would have had far more success with the players we have over the past four years.

Wichita State NBA players in the 20 years before Marshall: 0
Wichita State NBA players during Marshall's tenure: 3

Butler NBA players in the 40 years before Stevenson: 0
Butler NBA players during Stevenson's tenure: 2

Marshall and Stevenson took recruiting at their schools to an entirely different level which is a huge part of their success.

 

[coachfezz]

Not to mention they are always looking over their shoulder!!

I think this is very true

 

[SpiderK]

Just FYI - Adoda played 9 minutes for Pitt against UVA and had 0's across the stats board. Sounds familiar. Our 4 seniors averaged 4.0 points each last night.

 

[fatherspider]

Wichita State NBA players in the 20 years before Marshall: 0
Wichita State NBA players during Marshall's tenure: 3

Butler NBA players in the 40 years before Stevenson: 0
Butler NBA players during Stevenson's tenure: 2

Marshall and Stevenson took recruiting at their schools to an entirely different level which is a huge part of their success.

Could the coaching and the teams level of success have had something to do w their future success as players? I most certainly think so.

 

[fatherspider]

Wichita State NBA players in the 20 years before Marshall: 0
Wichita State NBA players during Marshall's tenure: 3

Butler NBA players in the 40 years before Stevenson: 0
Butler NBA players during Stevenson's tenure: 2

Marshall and Stevenson took recruiting at their schools to an entirely different level which is a huge part of their success.

And marshall proved his coaching abolity way before getting to Wichita. What he did at Winthrop was amazing.

 

[NewURfan]

Let's just be honest recruiting is a gamble which us we recruit good teammates guys. Hopefully they pan out to be outstanding individuals go getters. But that not likely with the system we run and embedded stern teacher in Mooney. I say teacher because I'M he doesn't coach he teaches a one course of play and that's his thing. We clearly could have had one of best run for NCAA this year with the offense individual talents on the team but CM stubbornness to make adjustments shake up line up and switch defense cost us some wins. Sometimes you can be too smart for own good. Since we have a high powered offensive lets rest by playing a simple 2 3 defense. No switching just pack it in and dare people to out shoot us. Like so many teams do to us to slow us down..It's not recruiting we get who we attract it not the players this year it's the coach being a drill sergeant. Wonder if our next year recruits are gonna like being molded systematic. Makes you think.

 

[32counter]

What is the earliest date per NCAA guidelines that UR could sign an additional MBBall recruit for the upcoming 2016-7 season?

 

[SFspidur]

April 13

 

[I-M-UR]

Wichita State NBA players in the 20 years before Marshall: 0
Wichita State NBA players during Marshall's tenure: 3

Butler NBA players in the 40 years before Stevenson: 0
Butler NBA players during Stevenson's tenure: 2

Marshall and Stevenson took recruiting at their schools to an entirely different level which is a huge part of their success.

But how highly were the players rated before they were recruited did they find diamonds in the rough or develop them?

 

[32counter]

Thought so,SF.Thks.Minimally 64 days of conjecture.

 

[SpiderGuy]

Let's just be honest recruiting is a gamble which us we recruit good teammates guys. Hopefully they pan out to be outstanding individuals go getters. But that not likely with the system we run and embedded stern teacher in Mooney. I say teacher because I'M he doesn't coach he teaches a one course of play and that's his thing. We clearly could have had one of best run for NCAA this year with the offense individual talents on the team but CM stubbornness to make adjustments shake up line up and switch defense cost us some wins. Sometimes you can be too smart for own good. Since we have a high powered offensive lets rest by playing a simple 2 3 defense. No switching just pack it in and dare people to out shoot us. Like so many teams do to us to slow us down..It's not recruiting we get who we attract it not the players this year it's the coach being a drill sergeant. Wonder if our next year recruits are gonna like being molded systematic. Makes you think.

Alluded to before. Recruit for round pegs to fit round holes. However if the round pegs turn out to be square pegs, coach has two choices that follow:

1) attempt to force square pegs into round holes or
2) adapt the system to fit the players

There is little doubt which choice coach has chosen through his tenure.

 

[97spiderfan]

All about recruiting. We could have had Red Aurerbach coaching as this year and we still had some massive limitations playing guys like Trey and Deion. Mooney recruited those guys and had 4 years to recruit upgrades and didn't do so and that is on him from a recruitment perspective.

Yes he is really stubborn with scheme and player personnel but he is not the horrid coach some make him out to be. Kellogg is a bad coach if you want to look at a recent comparison.

 

[fan2011]

But how highly were the players rated before they were recruited did they find diamonds in the rough or develop them?

Very highly, at least compared to us. Stevenson and Marshall routinely pulled in 3 and 4 star recruits.

 

[SpiderK]

Nice to see we are recruiting "Basketball Players" again instead of "athletes" !!!!

 

[Stork3]

This year should be the year that the recruiting is what we want, especially if we are able to land Wesson.

The recruiting misses in past years (Sparrow, Diekvoss, Smithen, Conor Smith, Singleton) were just about inexcusable. But that is all now in the past.

I suggested on another thread that Mooney visit Morgan Wooten down in Durham in the offseason and learn how Coach Wooten taught free-throw shooting. Then he should come back here and teach it the same way. One way. That would fix that glaring problem.

The past is the past. Chris Mooney has to change from a professional development standpoint in several areas. Many things he does are NOT being done by coaches who are currently successful, or by older coaches named Tarrant or Beilein. This offseason is the time to turn it around - and we may be almost there.

That being said, we have to see a continued improvement defensively this season. Other coaches have figured out the match-up zone. The 30-second clock has minimized its success, as well. I am frustrated that it takes our players the first two years to learn the defense and not get much playing time. Mooney needs to visit Beilein up at Michigan and learn how to choose and coach defense. Professional development is a good thing.

Coach's substitution patterns do one thing - prevent any player from getting into the flow and becoming able to find solutions for the opponent's strategy. They are too worried about getting benched, still, and look like they need Mooney's permission to p&^ss or anything else. The players need to be prepared, then need to be left alone to execute the strategy. I can only image Chris being at home one night, walking into the kitchen where his lovely wife is making bacon, lettuce, and tomato sandwiches, and criticizing that they should be made a different way. She holds up a meat cleaver, and he exits the kitchen. Keith Gill needs to point out the weaknesses in our basketball program, and then hold up a meat cleaver. Being the Grand Supreme Potentate of the World is a tough job - controlling everything all the time isn't the way to go, Chris.

And I am perplexed and frustrated that things have not been on a steady incline like under Tarrant and Beilein. Let's encourage Coach to identify and correct these areas. I don't think his feelings will be hurt too badly. Go Spiders.

 

[SpiderRick]

Some here have been encouraging Mooney to identify and correct for quite some time, to no avail. Then we have to listen to the rah rah crowd criticize us for being critical. Damned if you do and damned if you don't

 

[Marley13]

Is Wade Phillips available to teach some defense?

 

[fatherspider]

This year should be the year that the recruiting is what we want, especially if we are able to land Wesson.

The recruiting misses in past years (Sparrow, Diekvoss, Smithen, Conor Smith, Singleton) were just about inexcusable. But that is all now in the past.

I suggested on another thread that Mooney visit Morgan Wooten down in Durham in the offseason and learn how Coach Wooten taught free-throw shooting. Then he should come back here and teach it the same way. One way. That would fix that glaring problem.

The past is the past. Chris Mooney has to change from a professional development standpoint in several areas. Many things he does are NOT being done by coaches who are currently successful, or by older coaches named Tarrant or Beilein. This offseason is the time to turn it around - and we may be almost there.

That being said, we have to see a continued improvement defensively this season. Other coaches have figured out the match-up zone. The 30-second clock has minimized its success, as well. I am frustrated that it takes our players the first two years to learn the defense and not get much playing time. Mooney needs to visit Beilein up at Michigan and learn how to choose and coach defense. Professional development is a good thing.

Coach's substitution patterns do one thing - prevent any player from getting into the flow and becoming able to find solutions for the opponent's strategy. They are too worried about getting benched, still, and look like they need Mooney's permission to p&^ss or anything else. The players need to be prepared, then need to be left alone to execute the strategy. I can only image Chris being at home one night, walking into the kitchen where his lovely wife is making bacon, lettuce, and tomato sandwiches, and criticizing that they should be made a different way. She holds up a meat cleaver, and he exits the kitchen. Keith Gill needs to point out the weaknesses in our basketball program, and then hold up a meat cleaver. Being the Grand Supreme Potentate of the World is a tough job - controlling everything all the time isn't the way to go, Chris.

And I am perplexed and frustrated that things have not been on a steady incline like under Tarrant and Beilein. Let's encourage Coach to identify and correct these areas. I don't think his feelings will be hurt too badly. Go Spiders.

Very good post and i agree with all of it but damn if our coach has that many deficiancies and he needs us to explan them to him and encourage him to correct them after 11 years, can we really be hopeful that anything will improve? he did use a 2-3 zone yesteday, so it might work.