How many redshirts this year?

[MountainSpider]

Last year we had two redshirts -- Stansbury Solly and Grant Golden.

I think we end up with the same number this year, even if no one gets injured. We have the full 13 scholarships filled plus Joe Kirby. 12 should be plenty of players for the season, and it would be great to even out the classes with 4 and 3 instead of 6 and 1.

 

[spider23]

There will definitely be a squeeze on playing time. I am imagining that there will be two players that have not played a few weeks in and then that discussion would occur. I would hope we don't play them one minute very early (like the thin kid from Ohio) and burn the shirt if we do think a player will be a contributor down the line. Not sure the thinking now with the grad transfer game. I think that comes into play now.

 

[spiderman]

I think this is how it usually goes. if we have 13 healthy bodies plus walk ons, Coach will determine who's not in the projected rotation. they may be offered a red shirt year with the stipulation that we'll burn it if necessary. if a player says "no thanks", then he might get played a minute.

 

[MrTbone]

Agree with s-man. I think our coaches have moved past the "planned" developmental redshirt model. They probably encourage certain players to take one but we have a history of medical redshirt happening on their own.

 

[MolivaManiac]

Solly wasn't a redshirt, he had to sit because of ncaa rules last year, right? And grant played, was an unplanned medical redshirt.

Personally, I think we are beyond redshirting after the ANO fiasco and I hope that's the case. Please find players capable of playing D1 basketball from Day 1 and keep them moving through the program.

 

[fan2011]

Solly wasn't a redshirt, he had to sit because of ncaa rules last year, right? And grant played, was an unplanned medical redshirt.

Personally, I think we are beyond redshirting after the ANO fiasco and I hope that's the case. Please find players capable of playing D1 basketball from Day 1 and keep them moving through the program.

At this point, non-medical redshirting is a sign that you that the player is likely to transfer. In today's basketball landscape there is not any room for a developmental redshirt.

 

[MrTbone]

At this point, non-medical redshirting is a sign that you that the player is likely to transfer. In today's basketball landscape there is not any room for a developmental redshirt.

I don't totally agree with that. There will be guys who physically would benefit from a developmental year, or have depth in front of them that makes it logical to redshirt. I just don't think we tend to see those scenarios very often.

 

[MountainSpider]

Solly wasn't a redshirt, he had to sit because of ncaa rules last year, right? And grant played, was an unplanned medical redshirt.

Solly and Grant are both listed on the website roster as redshirts. Last year was obviously their redshirt year. I think I'm using the term the way it is commonly used. I hope we don't have any medical redshirts this year and have the luxury of redshirting two freshmen.

Personally, I think we are beyond redshirting after the ANO fiasco and I hope that's the case.

ANO wouldn't have been on our team that year anyway if we hadn't redshirted him and wouldn't have won us any games as a true freshman either. So we didn't actually lose much here, even if people are upset about the way he left. The reward is much higher than the risks, so even a small success rate is worth it.

Please find players capable of playing D1 basketball from Day 1 and keep them moving through the program.

It isn't a question of D1 ability, it is a question of whether or not they'll see meaningful playing time in our top 8 or at most 9. There is no reasonable expectation that a class of 6 freshman will all be in the top 8 unless your recruiting has been atrocious the prior three years.

I don't totally agree with that. There will be guys who physically would benefit from a developmental year, or have depth in front of them that makes it logical to redshirt. I just don't think we tend to see those scenarios very often.

Agreed, but I think that scenario isn't rare for us. We aren't going to exclusively land DMB types at our level so these developmental guys are definitely needed. I don't want part of our recruiting pitch to developmental guys to be we will waste one year of your eligibility with 20 garbage minutes on the court. It doesn't help us, isn't fair to the recruit, and also takes minutes away from others on the roster outside the top 8 and thus exacerbates the transfer problem.

 

[spiderman]

the problem with a developmental red shirt year is in planning. we expected him to be here for his final season. by the time we knew we wouldn't have him that last year it was too late.

but like you said ... we're not playing 13 guys. I personally would be very happy if offered a developmental red shirt year as a freshman. lift, practice, and get an extra year of free education. if you time it right, maybe get two summer trips to Europe!

 

[MrTbone]

the problem with a developmental red shirt year is in planning. we expected him to be here for his final season. by the time we knew we wouldn't have him that last year it was too late.

but like you said ... we're not playing 13 guys. I personally would be very happy if offered a developmental red shirt year as a freshman. lift, practice, and get an extra year of free education. if you time it right, maybe get two summer trips to Europe!

I think in theory, every bench player from about 9-13 starts the season on a developmental redshirt. It ends when either need dictates it, their prospects are good enough that they might get some time, or the player refuses the redshirt. So I expect the planning exists for the most part before game 1 ever gets played. Conditions change though at which point the commitment to the plan changes.

 

[Spideroldie]

I believe that redshirts can be a "win-win" for the player and the program. This year we will have a large incoming class and not all of this class will get "meaningful" playing time. However, we may have 2-3 freshmen this season who would substantially benefit from redshirting, because they can develop their skills and contribute more in their 4th (or 5th) year. I believe that the ANO example, and viewing it as a disaster is short-sighted. I believe that he is the only redshirt we have ever had who transferred his final year, and he was likely to be backing up TJ Cline, and may not have had the ego to be able to handle that.
This year we will have a "stacked" roster, and either 3 or 4 of our incoming freshmen will likely not get meaningful playing time. Here is my view on which players would benefit most from red-shirting, based on my personal observations, and not based on any conversations with the coaching staff:

1. AJ Ford: He is very "raw," and his overall game could benefit significantly by a red-shirt. He needs to work very hard on his outside shooting. He will earn under one minute per game if he does not red-shirt and could be a good contributor in his 5th year if he does. Probability of RS: 99%
2. Thomas Verbinskis: He is likely to be a contributor as a 3-point specialist at some point in his career, but definitely not this season. I see him earning no more than 1-2 minutes per game, since there is a logjam at small the small-forward position. Probability of RS: 90%+
3. Bryce Schneider: Bryce has the potential to be a strong contributor and to be a starter in his last two seasons here. However, he is one of two freshmen caught in a "numbers crunch" this season, and would likely play no more than 3 minutes per game. He will be a stronger player next year if he redshirts, and he will be a much stronger contributor in his 5th year with us. Probability of RS: 60%+
4. Nathan Cayo: Nathan has the talent to play this season, but, like Bryce, could benefit from the added year. Also, if he plays it is likely to be as a defensive specialist (he is very good defensively). I see him starting for 2-3 years if he redshirts, and if he plays this season it will not be many minutes (appx. 3-5), unless there is a front-court injury. Probability of RS: 40%

I believe that the team and program would greatly benefit if at least three of our incoming players were to red-shirt. If Nathan develops quickly this fall, which would not surprise me, and can beat out Jordan and/or Paul for front-court minutes, then we may need to ask him to play sooner rather than later. However, the team will be stronger in 4 years if both Bryce and Nathan can be patient and focus on their long-term development this season.

There is likely a 0% probability of Jacob Gilyard redshirting, if he remains healthy. I see him having the potential to be a starter early in the season and I see him playing 25+ minutes per game. He has stronger PG skills (passing/handling) than Kendall Anthony, and is a better defender and at least as good a shooter. Our depth and talent would be hurt if Jacob does not play immediately.

So, my 2-cents worth is that we really should red-shirt at least two players and that the optimal number of red-shirts this season is either 3 or 4, pending health, speed of development, and our guy's maturity level (ability to look beyond the here and now).

 

[spider23]

Good stuff Oldie, thanks for the evaluations based on your personal observations. It's kind of funny how the narrative on who may play or not goes back and forth based on some reports on this board or comments by coaches. I feel like your report above is very consistent with many of our thoughts if your were to go back about 4-5 months. AJ and Verbinskis were thought to be longer term projects, then kind of got moved up the line on the board. Jacob has been consistently thought of as a contributor. Cayo was originally thought of a potential early contributor, then it seems he slipped (in our minds possibly) but his physical tools seems to have right back in the mix.

 

[fan2011]

My impression was that Mooney said Jacob was most likely to contribute, followed by Cayo then Schneider. Based on that, Ford and Verbinskis are the most likely to redshirt.

http://www.richmond.com/sports/jaco...cle_2c3edf62-967d-59b1-b095-f19558f8653d.html

As the Spiders prepare for their Nov. 10 opener against visiting Delaware, Gilyard projects as the freshman, among five on scholarship, who will earn the opportunity to make an immediate impact.

Additionally, Mooney said 6-6 freshman Nathan Cayo “has a really good chance to play. I think his athleticism and his versatility really have a chance to help him. Also, he’s somebody who could be a great defender.”

Freshman Bryce Schneider, a 6-5 freshman, could figure into the rotation as well, according to Mooney.

 

[spiderman]

we're not deep with experience at the big forward spot. if Solly rolls an ankle I think we'll go with a freshman. we can go small with Buck at the 4 but I don't think we'd do that full time. Cayo seems to have the early edge. I can see Tomas next in line there.

 

[LongTimeLurkerFirstTimePoster]

unless there is injury, redshirting in college hoops is dead. If you redshirt a player, you need to slow down his academic progress, otherwise, if he becomes good, you run the risk of losing the 5th to the Grad Transfer rule.

 

[97spiderfan]

Have we had a developmental red shirt actually work for us during Mooney's tenure. It seems to be the players we've red shirted for developmental reasons were almost always recruiting misses that we just shelved there for a year until sending them onto greener pastures. And no Trey Davis is not a success story, please refer to his senior year and perhaps any of the thousands of threads that year, trying to explain how that team fell apart before our eyes.

 

[iSpider]

I do not understand the argument against redshirting. If a player is not going to contribute in the year of his redshirt, why would it matter? If he redshirts, we still have him and his production for the very same years as we would have had he not redshirted. Hopefully, he stays, but what have we lost if he doesn't?

 

[MountainSpider]

Have we had a developmental red shirt actually work for us during Mooney's tenure. It seems to be the players we've red shirted for developmental reasons were almost always recruiting misses that we just shelved there for a year until sending them onto greener pastures. And no Trey Davis is not a success story, please refer to his senior year and perhaps any of the thousands of threads that year, trying to explain how that team fell apart before our eyes.

Keep in mind this is a bit of an unusual year. We have all 13 scholarships filled plus a walk-on we are willing to play. No transfers that have to sit out a year. No medical redshirts (yet). 6 freshman this year and only 1 next year. Our top 7 will probably play every minute they can, leaving very few minutes for the next 7. A near perfect setup for freshmen redshirts, even if you are against them in a typical year.

Also Trey Davis is a success story, albeit a minor one -- he was good enough to start for us his RS senior year. The problem with that team was multi-year bad recruiting, and eliminating RS wouldn't have solved that problem

 

[spiderman]

this is an interesting year and an interesting freshman class. not sure how it plays out.

I'm not convinced Paul is a total miss, but even if he is he'd be the only miss of the non-freshmen. the others will all definitely play. so odds are good that (give or take) 3 freshmen will play very little this season. and we're light seniors. the prospects for playing time don't get much better next year when we lose only JMA and Kirby.

20 years ago kids might wait their turn. that doesn't happen much anymore. red shirts or not, we'll have to wait and see how much of this class stays intact.

 

[kneepadmckinney]

Although we got burned by ANO, I don't think Mooney is fully off of the redshirt bandwagon. My uninformed perspective is that he is fair and honest with the players from the beginning of the season through the end of it, and that includes letting them know if he anticipates them getting material playing time. I get the sense that some have taken him up on the idea of redshirting (including Paul), and some have not (including Tim Singleton).

I do agree that shirting at least one freshman helps balance the classes a bit, and from that perspective would be desirable. Even I don't think that redshirting 3 or 4 guys is a good idea- that makes for a paper thin active roster.

 

[Spideroldie]

We can red-shirt four freshmen and still be "9-deep." In what way is 9-deep :"paper-thin?"

Our 9 top guys will include 7 guys who will earn most of the PT, and we all know who those 7 are expected to be. After that, a lot will depend on how ready Jordan (our 5th year transfer) and Paul, a former red-shirt, are to contribute. From all indications Jordan is looking pretty good since his arrival (see Ulla's assessment earlier) and Paul is looking to me like he will earn some meaningful minutes (and he finally looks healthy).

If I am a freshman on this team, other than Jacob, I would hope for an honest assessment of my likely playing time this season, and if I am going to be #10 through #13 in the rotation, and project to earn under 5 minutes per game, I might see the benefit in focusing on getting my GPA in great shape, and learning both the offense and defense (which does take time).

I might also be thinking that this is going to be an even better team NEXT year, and that it might be really fun to be a part of a team that "dances" in 3 or 4 of my remaining years on the team. This is the year to give some serious thought to red-shirting, and player buy-in to the benefits of red-shirting can be very important.

Someone on this board can very likely provide a "history lesson" on red-shirting at UR. As far as I know, there has only been one APPARENT "failure" for the team, and that was ANO. Some, who are truly insiders, might even say that ANO's departure was a good thing for team chemistry. However, Trey Davis is certainly a "success" story in red-shirting, since he did start his senior year and we would have been a weaker team without his presence. Are there other success stories (Paul could eventually be one) that have not been included in this conversation? I suspect that there are. The year that TD redshirted we had 3 redshirts, if memory serves (TD, ANO, and the 6-10 center). That cost us nothing, but it gave us TD for a year when he was really ready to help us. Many of us were not big fans of TD, but we would likely have lost a few more games his final year if he had not been around.

Redshirting is not for everyone and it may not be a good strategy when a team is short on depth or talent. However, this year is different and this year red-shirting makes very sense for 2-4 of our freshmen. .

 

[gospidersgo]

I might also be thinking that this is going to be an even better team NEXT year, and that it might be really fun to be a part of a team that "dances" in 3 or 4 of my remaining years on the team

No one of note graduates this year. So your thinking is that a freshman who isn't good enough to earn playing time this year should have the foresight to think to himself "yeah let me ride the pine this year because we will be even better next year" ? How would they see the court next year in this scenario either?

And think of it from a future recruit's perspective. UR brought in this class and did a mass redshirting (3 or 4 players in this scenario). Why go there if this may happen to me too? These guys want to play not wait.

I have no knowledge as to whether or not we will intentionally redshirt this season, but I hope the number is much closer to 0 than 4.

 

[MrTbone]

I expect that 1, maybe 2 guys will be targeted for a developmental redshirt but don’t think it’ll be anything close to 4 unless injuries occur.

And there’s no reason to think the Secret Weapon (Paul) will get any minutes. There’s just no history to suggest this is potentially the case, much less likely.

 

[Ulla1]

Just my opinion; I would generally like to see no redshirts. Recruit every year and move the guys through unless there is an injury.

 

[MountainSpider]

Just my opinion; I would generally like to see no redshirts. Recruit every year and move the guys through unless there is an injury.

So for you and the other zero redshirters, I have a question -- how do you accomplish this? Do you tell DMB and KF to sit out at the end of a tight game against VCU to play the 5th and 6th best freshmen in the class? Or do you force the freshmen into a couple games in garbage time with the only purpose being to make sure they won't be eligible in their fifth year?

 

[spiderman]

Jermaine Bucknor was probably our most successful developmental redshirt. he was a young freshman . still 17 I think. scored 10.7 ppg as a junior and 13.5 ppg as a senior.

I think our recent redshirts fall in these categories:

Medical - Grant Golden, Khwan Fore, Paul Friendshuh, Dan Geroit, Kevin Hovde, Ryan Butler, Jarhon Giddings, Gaston Moliva, Andres Sandoval, Tim Mayes

Transfers - Solly Stansbury, Marshall Wood, TJ Cline, Oumar Sylla, Jamaal Scott, Tony Dobbins, Greg Stevenson, Kinte Smith

Developmental - Chandler Diekvoss, Trey Davis, Alonzo Nelson-Ododa, Luke Piotrowski, Wayne Sparrow, Conor Smith, Jermaine Bucknor

 

[CarolinaSpider]

Jermaine Bucknor was probably our most successful developmental redshirt. he was a young freshman . still 17 I think. scored 10.7 ppg as a junior and 13.5 ppg as a senior.

I think our recent redshirts fall in these categories:

Medical - Grant Golden, Khwan Fore, Paul Friendshuh, Dan Geroit, Kevin Hovde, Ryan Butler, Jarhon Giddings, Gaston Moliva, Andres Sandoval, Tim Mayes

Transfers - Solly Stansbury, Marshall Wood, TJ Cline, Oumar Sylla, Jamaal Scott, Tony Dobbins, Greg Stevenson, Kinte Smith

Developmental - Chandler Diekvoss, Trey Davis, Alonzo Nelson-Ododa, Luke Piotrowski, Wayne Sparrow, Conor Smith, Jermaine Bucknor

The point I get from this, is that it is a crap shoot with many players that fall into either one of the three situations. It is a hard call as an example I watched
a highly touted HS/ODP soccer player come to a D1 school as a freshman and was thought to take over for rising junior who was starting for the first time. The star player never developed the chemistry and after a year left for W&M and got some playing time. Though he was not a redshirt, the point is you just never know. The player he could not beat out did not have heavy credentials but was a strong team player.

 

[Ulla1]

So for you and the other zero redshirters, I have a question -- how do you accomplish this? Do you tell DMB and KF to sit out at the end of a tight game against VCU to play the 5th and 6th best freshmen in the class? Or do you force the freshmen into a couple games in garbage time with the only purpose being to make sure they won't be eligible in their fifth year?

Mountain, I respect your opinion. But, no I would not force players into a game just to burn their redshirt. If they are needed and play only a few games, so be it. However, I would definitely not go into the season telling certain players that they were not going to play. Here again, just my opinion.

 

[spiderman]

So for you and the other zero redshirters, I have a question -- how do you accomplish this? Do you tell DMB and KF to sit out at the end of a tight game against VCU to play the 5th and 6th best freshmen in the class? Or do you force the freshmen into a couple games in garbage time with the only purpose being to make sure they won't be eligible in their fifth year?

Mountain, this year more than usual redshirting makes sense because at least right now we have a healthy, full current roster with 13 scholarshipped guys plus Kirby and only one comes off scholarship next year.

and our top 8 seems pretty set, plus Paul at #9 if we need a big body. I don't know how more than two at most of the 4 non Gilyard/Golden freshmen can earn meaningful time. and if they don't this year, not much changes next.

nobody wants to redshirt, but nobody wants to be active and not play either. and we can't play even close to this many guys.

 

[97spiderfan]

Jermaine Bucknor was probably our most successful developmental redshirt. he was a young freshman . still 17 I think. scored 10.7 ppg as a junior and 13.5 ppg as a senior.

I think our recent redshirts fall in these categories:

Medical - Grant Golden, Khwan Fore, Paul Friendshuh, Dan Geroit, Kevin Hovde, Ryan Butler, Jarhon Giddings, Gaston Moliva, Andres Sandoval, Tim Mayes

Transfers - Solly Stansbury, Marshall Wood, TJ Cline, Oumar Sylla, Jamaal Scott, Tony Dobbins, Greg Stevenson, Kinte Smith

Developmental - Chandler Diekvoss, Trey Davis, Alonzo Nelson-Ododa, Luke Piotrowski, Wayne Sparrow, Conor Smith, Jermaine Bucknor

Thanks for breaking them down S-man. We are only talking about Developmental redshirts here. The other redshirts were mandatory due to injury or NCAA regs.

To me the only reason you offer a redshirt, if you see a kid, who has the potential to be a starting caliber player during their career. If you don't see that in the kid than you are running the risk of using the scholarship for 5 years on a player that isn't really helping the program. And that actually ampliflies the impact of a recruiting miss. I look at Kadeem Smithen and Tim Singleton as two examples of players who didn't redshirt and played a few minutes their freshman year and then were out because they just couldn't play at this level. And then look at Conor Smith as a player who was on schloarship for 5 years and couldn't play at this level. Kadeem and Tim's slots were overrecruiting after 1 year, Conor's was not for 5 years.

My point is I think our coaches are astute enough to realize which players are worth the risk of using a redshirt on. Because it is a risk and quite a considerable one at that.

 

[MountainSpider]

However, I would definitely not go into the season telling certain players that they were not going to play. Here again, just my opinion.

Oh, I definitely agree with this, as you don't know who is going to get injured or who will develop faster than you thought. My claim is that the end of the year, "2" is a reasonable guess at the number of redshirts we'll have. The only scenario I see where this doesn't happen is if a bunch of our rotation get injured at a time during the season when it is too late to redshirt the injured players. If players get injured earlier in the season, then they'll get redshirted rather than the freshmen, but we'll still have the redshirts. If everyone stays healthy, it will be the freshmen.

and our top 8 seems pretty set

I would have said top 7... are you assuming JMA is definitely number 8?

 

[urmite]

Jermaine Bucknor was probably our most successful developmental redshirt. he was a young freshman . still 17 I think. scored 10.7 ppg as a junior and 13.5 ppg as a senior.

I think our recent redshirts fall in these categories:

Medical - Grant Golden, Khwan Fore, Paul Friendshuh, Dan Geroit, Kevin Hovde, Ryan Butler, Jarhon Giddings, Gaston Moliva, Andres Sandoval, Tim Mayes

Transfers - Solly Stansbury, Marshall Wood, TJ Cline, Oumar Sylla, Jamaal Scott, Tony Dobbins, Greg Stevenson, Kinte Smith

Developmental - Chandler Diekvoss, Trey Davis, Alonzo Nelson-Ododa, Luke Piotrowski, Wayne Sparrow, Conor Smith, Jermaine Bucknor

I might move Paul from Medical to Developmental, since I have a faint memory of us announcing his redshirt a week before his injury.

As to depth what are the thoughts on Kirby? We know we are going to try to have Jordan & Paul ready, will Joe continue to get a minute here & there?

 

[fan2011]

I might move Paul from Medical to Developmental, since I have a faint memory of us announcing his redshirt a week before his injury.

As to depth what are the thoughts on Kirby? We know we are going to try to have Jordan & Paul ready, will Joe continue to get a minute here & there?

Kirby got time last year since Sherod and Buck needed to play the 4 (and sometimes we even had Buck at the 5) so there was extra time in the back court. If Solly and one of the freshmen are taking up most of the time at the 4, and Gilyard plays for 10+ minutes a game, I don't see where Kirby's minutes would come from.

I would expect playing time to go something like:
Buck: 35
KF: 35
NS: 25
JJ/JG: 25
----
SS: 30
GG: 25
NC/JMA/PF: 25

 

[spiderman]

I would have said top 7... are you assuming JMA is definitely number 8?

yes.

 

[spiderman]

I agree on Kirby. I think he's a solid player, but if his time comes at Gilyard's expense then I don't seen it. Gilyard's going to be a star.

 

[97spiderfan]

I agree on Kirby. I think he's a solid player, but if his time comes at Gilyard's expense then I don't seen it. Gilyard's going to be a star.

Agree, but Kirby has a great ability to get under the other guys skin, that will come in valuable in some situations.

 

[spiderman]

well I hope he can get under their skin from the bench. he's going to get under my skin if he's playing over Gilyard, JJ, Nick, Buck, or Khwan.

 

[URSpider95]

We have 6 players with freshman status right. It's a bit of a unique year with almost half of our scholarship players in one class. From a playing time and class balancing perspective, it just makes sense to redshirt 2 or 3 of the freshman.

 

[MountainSpider]

Congratulations to spideroldie, who was the only person who got the right answer in the poll. 15 of us came close, though.