GONE GUY

[spiderman]

those that believe CM is the right guy don't believe that out of fear that we can't find someone good to replace him. we've replaced coaches before. we've found quality guys. and we will again if we need to.

I personally think he's a great coach, though. To paraphrase our favorite beat writer, I think we'd be morons to toss him aside. I don't think we find a better coach, because I think he's that good.

no, I'm not satisfied with what we've done. I'm not settling for mediocrity. I look back and I know his tenure hasn't been amazing. it was a total rebuild when he came. nobody was dancing off of the JW mess. it took a few years but CM's first late signing of Butler started his tenure. when he, Gonzo, Harper, Geriot, Anderson and Smith aged, we hit it big. but the class right behind wasn't strong enough to sustain anything, and the small classes behind them didn't make up for that. we came really close last year though. who could expect the demise of DWill? and the wheels fell off when Ced went down. those two things don't happen and we're dancing. that's on Mooney??? this year was another close one withone senior. and now we're here with a senior heavy class and 4 juniors next fall. we're ready to be special again. it really hasn't been that long. it's 2 roster cycles.

everything pointed to 2015/16 for a couple of years now. some here got really excited this year. I hoped, but falling just short of the 32 or so at-large bids is about right. I do agree we should expect a strong year next season, and I do expect a bid. we should be very good. it's too early to tell if the class after that can sustain it. a couple in next year's freshman class will have major roles that year, and we just don't know what we have there yet. and we may not find out much about them in the season coming up either. but time will tell.

 

[Eight Legger]

I agree that he is a fantastic ambassador for the school. However, he earns TEN TIMES MORE annually than the highest paid United States ambassador.

Meanwhile, our obnoxious neighbors down the street are in the NCAA tournament for the 5th straight year, while we are not for the 4th straight year.

 

[MrTbone]

Completely agree. All this nonsense about comparing this to a business or that our bottomline metric for success is post-season berths is painfully presumptive. I've been in management for over a decade and I would never let go of an employee or change my approach when I was having continued production year to year. Would I want to do better? Of course. But that doesn't mean I isolate to one area or person as the difference between failure or success.

 

[97spiderfan]

Originally posted by spiderman:
but the class right behind wasn't strong enough to sustain anything, and the small classes behind them didn't make up for that. we came really close last year though. who could expect the demise of DWill? and the wheels fell off when Ced went down. those two things don't happen and we're dancing. that's on Mooney???

Really? That is mighty presumptive. The two games before we lost Ced and D-Will, we got absolutely housed by St. Louis and VCU, but yet we are dancing for sure last year. Come on.

VCU lost their best players this year about the same time we lost Ced last year and then turned around and won the A-10 and dancing for a 5th straight year. Injuries are a part of the game, to expect to through an entire season without a significant injury is really idealistic. Good teams and good coaches overcome these setbacks and this is why you have a deep bench and why the amount of recruiting misses we've had matters so much.

Not discounting the loss of Ced last year (D-Will had mentally checked out before the season started, so not sure how much his loss hurt us), it was a huge loss and certainly COULD have cost us an NCAA bid. But all I am saying is that is presumptive to say we would have been dancing. We were not some big powerhouse last year before Ced went down, we were a fringe bubble team as we were this year that would have had to have closed the season really strong to get an at large.

Just as it is presumptive to say we would have beaten GMU and Rhody this year with ANO. We certainly lost to a bunch of subpar teams with ANO on the court. And using that logic, would have we have won 6 in a row with ANO still in the line-up? Who knows. Maybe, maybe not.

All we can go off of is what actually transpired, not a bunch of ifs and buts.

I am not saying Mooney is terrible, he is in fact a good coach, he is a good guy, he is a good ambassador. But at this level, the line between good and great is very fine and his record thus far projects a lot of "goodness" and not enough greatness.

 

[Not-A-Homer]

Nearly all programs that compete at the highest levels have a fantastic ambassador for the school.

 

[WebSpinner]

really glad you used the word "nearly", there are a number of sleazebags out there, many of them dancing.

 

[spiderman]

I'll re-phrase, 97. Those things don't happen and MAYBE we're dancing. better?
and as for DWill, when I said "who could expect the demise of DWill", I wasn't talking about his leaving the team. I meant his whole senior year. he was supposed to be the man. he was a shell of his former self. he checked out, and that hurt us. that's not on Mooney either.

we're not going to agree on this. I love that Mooney is our coach. I think he's the perfect guy for UR. you're ready to move on. hopefully after next year we won't have this discussion again.

 

[TBSpyder]

Many of us have been competitive athletes. That sometimes overly shapes our view of how the intercollegiate sports world works. There is a hierarchy of basketball programs. At the top, are NBA developmental programs. They generally recruit players who are already close to being able to play in the NBA. A down year for one of these schools, is generally an NIT appearance. Then there are descending levels of programs. They generally recruit kids who are clearly ready to play in D1. These programs have large fan bases, big crowds, great tv and press exposure. At the bottom of the Power 5 conferences, are schools that have not been as successful, but generally can still recruit the best athletes, left over from the bigger programs.

Then there are schools like UR. If you can't go to a major, A-10 programs, are attractive. Frequently, we are looking at sophomores and juniors, and having to guess how a recruit will play 3-5 years in the future. In UR's case, we are also requiring a certain ability to perform in the classroom at a highly selective university, not something every athlete is capable or even interested in. It is absurd to require a coach to take UR to the NCAA as often, as say, NC State or Virginia Tech. I applaud CM, as he's done well, compared to some of those programs. Generally, we only get recruits who were unable to get a power conference offer. There is usually a reason, too short, too skinny, not a good shooter, etc.

Statistics was mentioned earlier. Height is generally distributed in a population, according to a bell curve. Thus the largest pool of recruits, have average height. Thus there are a lot of talented guards, too many for the power conferences to acquire them all, and most mid majors tend to be guard oriented, as the difference between them and the power programs is not as great. As you move up to the bigger players, the population becomes much smaller, and power schools tend to grab the most talented of them.

Given the above I believe CM has done a fantastic job. I do think he is becoming more mature and a better coach, and we may see more NCAA appearances in the near future.

 

[Eight Legger]

TB, is it fair to deduce that you do not believe we are capable of making the NCAAs five straight years, the same way VCU has done from the A-10? Or the same way Temple did in the A-10? Or seven straight years, the same way Xavier did from the A-10? If so, why do you believe that we are not capable of that? And why WERE those teams able to do it, in that case?

I would be curious to hear your response.

 

[SpiderK]

TBS. we agree!!! . UR has almost always had wonderful guards. Our bigs have always either died as a bulb or bloomed late in their 3rd and 4th year. Pehl, Flye, Winicki, Harper, Allen, Adoda. Hopefully our 3 bigs have an outstanding year in 15-16.

 

[spiderman]

I believe we're able, though haven't. it'll be tougher for us than the schools you mentioned, for all the reasons that have been discussed here and considered excuses. but we can do it. we'll have to be right with a very high percentage of our recruits. and we'll have to be fortunate with injuries.

 

[spider23]

I guess we are all just a bunch of idiots for thinking we should be able to capitalize on two straight NCAA appearances. Instead we regressed to the mean. So much for expectations on here. Apparently having expectations on this board brand you as someone who wants to hire a thug coach and turn out poor representatives of the school. I don't believe that is the case, and I don't feel bad for thinking that way. I am optimistic that we can get back to the NCAA's next year, but am disappointed that we could not capitalize in the way that VCU did the last four years. I feel good about our play in the last month of the season and hopeful that we can come out of the gates faster next year. Let's start by getting some good games scheduled and winning a couple of them early in the season.

I am excited about the NIT, but it does not wipe away the disappointment of not reaching the NCAA's.

 

[spiderman]

we capitalized on the NCAA run with the current junior class. the classes before were already on board. it takes a while for the capitalization to pay off, especially when it's a class of big guys. (great stuff by the way, TBS).
we were close this year. next year we get there.

 

[URPike]

we can go around and around on this and never get anywhere. The 4 or 5 posters who have decided we should be in the NCAA's every year are not going to be convinced nor are those that are generally happy with the program and its direction. I just think it is funny that some folks here expect greatness every year while teams in power 5 conferences that have won national championships can't seem to do it. Where is Florida, back to back national champs, playing this postseason? They should probably fire Donovan because he hasn't won the title in 4 or 5 years and they pay him a lot of money therefore they should win all the time.

 

[97spiderfan]

Originally posted by spiderman:
I'll re-phrase, 97. Those things don't happen and MAYBE we're dancing. better?
and as for DWill, when I said "who could expect the demise of DWill", I wasn't talking about his leaving the team. I meant his whole senior year. he was supposed to be the man. he was a shell of his former self. he checked out, and that hurt us. that's not on Mooney either.

we're not going to agree on this. I love that Mooney is our coach. I think he's the perfect guy for UR. you're ready to move on. hopefully after next year we won't have this discussion again.

Thanks, Spiderman. Words matter. And for the record, I am not ready to move on from Mooney. I like how we finished the season and am fully on board with him being our coach next year and him having the opportunity to see what this big class of seniors can do next year. If we don't make it next year though, than I think it is time for a change.

And yes, I too hope that we don't have this discussion next year. Hope I am wrong and you and others are right about Mooney. There are logical points to be made on both sides.

 

[WebSpinner]

when we made the decision to do what was needed to retain CM, think a lot of us, not all, thought that was the one thing we never had before, the ability or want-to, to, to keep a good coach. we assumed that was all that was needed to keep us at that level, obviously was not. am sure we have a wide spectrum on here of what our expectations are for the program, some low, some middle, some high, some too high and there is nothing wrong with any of those thoughts, probably pretty normal. as long as one is comfortable with his ideas, thoughts, on what is acceptable, it is all good. we have has a wide spectrum of basketball coaches through the years, some poor, some OK and some darn good with the poor being sent packing, the OK either leaving or sent packing and the darn good either departing for a better job or retiring. think we all want the same thing but some are willing to be OK with not getting there and some wanting to move on and get another coach no matter the outcome. we just have to live with the fact that not all of us will get our way and that we will have nothing to do with what is done or not done.

 

[spiderman]

won't be much to talk about besides this in a few weeks!
hope we get some good looking recruits listing us in April or it's going to be a long spring/summer.

 

[TBSpyder]

8 legger,

It all depends on what the definition of capable, is. Certainly, I think it possible. But it's difficult. We are a very different institutions from those you cite. Temple is a very large school, with a large fanbase, that is one of the winningest NCAA teams all time. They've been a successful programs for many decades.

Many schools have had their streaks, and then died. I can remember DePaul being a perennial power, but they haven't been back to NCAA tourney since 2004.

But yes, I'd love to see 5 straight NCAA appearances, and agree that I think it possible under CM. I just differ, in that I wouldn't fire him, if we don't go to NCAA, every year. We have varying shades of disagreement on the board, and I guess that's the norm for most things.

 

[SpiderGuy]

Originally posted by Eight Legger:
TB, is it fair to deduce that you do not believe we are capable of making the NCAAs five straight years, the same way VCU has done from the A-10? Or the same way Temple did in the A-10? Or seven straight years, the same way Xavier did from the A-10? If so, why do you believe that we are not capable of that? And why WERE those teams able to do it, in that case?

I would be curious to hear your response.

X2

Haven't we invested as if this is a reasonably sized program - salaries, staff, RC, etc? What gets me is all the reasons & explanations of "why we haven't", "why we can't", "these unfortunate things happened", etc. When does all of the limitation talk stop, and the conversation changes to "we can", "we should", "we can deal effectively when the unexpected occurs"? When do people set expectations that we should be included on some regular basis with other named schools? It seems there's too much emphasis upon conservative and limited expectations.

I guess it boils down to goals & expectations. It shocks me that too many have tempered these. I'm tired of seeing UVa and VCU dominate the TV screens for March Madness. Why not the team that we all support?

 

[LongTimeLurkerFirstTimePoster]

Trap,

Never let the facts get in the way of your argument. 33% of the 6 year drought was covered by Tarrant. Beilein came in and won with Dooley's players.

1991-92 Tarrant NIT
1992-92 Tarrant Nothing
93-94 Dooley Nothing
94-95 Dooley Nothing
95-96 Dooley Nothing
96-97 Dooley Nothing

 

[SpiderFan]

Thank you for painfully rehashing my 4 years of college with no postseason whatsoever.

 

[MrTbone]

The dreaded Dooley Years...

 

[AnnapSpider]

T-bone, I was not talking about CM, but the state of college coaching and the unrealistic expectations of the fans.
Should W & M get rid of their coach because they have never been to the Big Dance, or be happy that for the first time in
a long time they continue to have winning teams.
We're one of the smallest Universities in the nation to have the reputation we have. Suppose we were a large school, with all kinds of
alumni support-say Southern Cal, and still year after year they truly have a mediocre program.
While I respect a lot of the posters on this site, we have some that are just plain unrealistic. So be it.

 

[Eight Legger]

Nothing "great" in life ever is born from "realistic" expectations.

 

[WebSpinner]

Eight, that is a quote from pee wee herman, right??

 

[MrTbone]

Originally posted by AnnapSpider:
T-bone, I was not talking about CM, but the state of college coaching and the unrealistic expectations of the fans.
Should W & M get rid of their coach because they have never been to the Big Dance, or be happy that for the first time in
a long time they continue to have winning teams.
We're one of the smallest Universities in the nation to have the reputation we have. Suppose we were a large school, with all kinds of
alumni support-say Southern Cal, and still year after year they truly have a mediocre program.
While I respect a lot of the posters on this site, we have some that are just plain unrealistic. So be it.

Totally agree.

 

[urmite]

Add another name to the gone list Tom Pecora.

Fordham Changes

 

[spiderman]

pretty good coach who made a bad decision to take a job at a coach's graveyard.

 

[MolivaManiac]

I actually thought Fordham showed good progress at the end of the season.

 

[SpiderTrap]

Should W&M get rid of their coach because they have never been to the Big Dance - well, if the guy keeps making it to the NIT or having 20 win seasons with no post-season, then yes - I would get rid of him. But comparing us to W&M - not even close. Shaver has turned that program around and the last 2 seasons they have won 20 games and made the CAA finals 4 times in his tenure, but loss all of them. At some point - if they continue winning, but with no post-season, a change will be needed.

Similar to Bill Carmody at Northwestern. He turned that program around - and they were on the bubble a few times. They had never made the NCAA in school history - he gets them to the NIT 4 straight years, then has a 13-19 year and is gone. Wouldn't you say - he has shown us he can get us close - lets keep him. I mean St. Louis was in the NCAA tourney last year - and then had a 11-21 record - they didn't fire him. Why fire Carmody - maybe that year was just a rebuilding and they would be back in the hunt the following year.

Point is - the goal is the NCAA tourney. Yes - smaller programs with less history of winning or making the dance will give you more time, but eventually - if you don't make the tourney - you will and should get removed. That is just the nature of the business on any level. If not - then the school is sending a direct message - we don't care if we make the NCAA tourney.

And right now at UR - its not panic time just yet. This year was disappointing we didn't make it. We lose one of the better players in recent history to wear a Spider Uniform in Anthony, but based on what we have coming back - hopefully next year is an NCAA year. Everyone has a clock - how many years between NCAA appearances would it take. For some it might be 5, others 6, some never - as long as we make the top 100 RPI.