Sir, you have seen over 17,000 more years of Spider basketball than most of us - though I am thinking VT4700 probably saw a good one in 30047. Yes, best athlete since Smitty. Blair before him.
Future is bright
- Thread starter SpiderTrap
- Start date
History has shown the UR developmental redshirt to sound way better than it in fact proves to be.
While I completely agree with your sentiment, people bring it up because what’s happening now is the exception, not the rule. It’s a tough climb out of purgatory.
I get it, but everything's been said that can be said about past seasons, yet still gets repeated here 20 times every day to offset the enjoyment of a 15-4 start to this season.
I didn't enjoy the results either the past 2 years in particular but I love what Mooney has currently built. this is a very good team and it's set up for another run next year. I'm very excited about the pieces in place going forward further than that, and I'm looking forward to following the next big recruiting class. it's such a drag that with a fun season going on and a bright future, some can only focus on failures of the past.
The Great One, Dick Tarrant, said of his Sweet 16 team "this is not their year, next year will be their year". Last year was not this team's year, this year and next year will be their best.
I agree this year is looking good and the next two games will tell us a lot as we play Dayton and VCU. But we will lose our entire starting 5 after next season - and I think what needs to be planned out now is how to make this a reload, and not a rebuild that will take several years.
Mooney's first back to back run to the NCAA tourney was very similar to this. He started coaching with the "bare cupboard", and as a result - the team struggled a bit early - but guys got to play a lot of minutes in their frosh and soph year. Not to mention - those guys - KA, Gonzo, Butler, Smitty, Geriot, Harper - all got to play together for 3-4 years. Then when those guys were juniors and seniors - we had a team with a lot of experience and good players, and made a run. But when they all graduated (We lost Anderson, Harper, Geriot, Smith all in the same year to graduation) - we never were able to reload. Of course I don't expect us to win 20 games as soon as all of these current players graduate in 2 years, but I don't think the anyone wants to wait another 7-8 years for the roster to align either. This is where recruiting, redshirting, getting grad transfers, developing players in practice, finding guys minutes, etc - all comes into play because while you are focused on this season - you always must have one eye on the next season as well.
Mooney's first back to back run to the NCAA tourney was very similar to this. He started coaching with the "bare cupboard", and as a result - the team struggled a bit early - but guys got to play a lot of minutes in their frosh and soph year. Not to mention - those guys - KA, Gonzo, Butler, Smitty, Geriot, Harper - all got to play together for 3-4 years. Then when those guys were juniors and seniors - we had a team with a lot of experience and good players, and made a run. But when they all graduated (We lost Anderson, Harper, Geriot, Smith all in the same year to graduation) - we never were able to reload. Of course I don't expect us to win 20 games as soon as all of these current players graduate in 2 years, but I don't think the anyone wants to wait another 7-8 years for the roster to align either. This is where recruiting, redshirting, getting grad transfers, developing players in practice, finding guys minutes, etc - all comes into play because while you are focused on this season - you always must have one eye on the next season as well.
What a defeatist mentality. We should absolutely be able to win 20 games (which is not even that high of a bar) the year after these guys graduate.
Assuming no injuries or defections, that season we will have a very experienced and talented core of Wojcik, Sal, Burton and Gustavson, hopefully coming off back to back NCAA tournament years. Wilson will be a sophomore at point guard. Add in Crabtree, Grace, and whoever new Mooney picks up recruiting and there's no reason to expect a sub-20 win season. We can achieve more and should expect it.
I completely understand why folks are tired of the negativity...I'd advise just ignoring those posts if they get you down. If we make the tournament the next two years and Mooney adds a bunch of ready to play recruits then this board will be full of positivity and stories of great trips to the A-10 and NCAA tournament sites. That said, its been almost a decade under Mooney's leadership without the Big Dance and his last two appearances were not capitalized on for whatever reason. I can see why folks would be concerned about the future in 2021 and beyond based on us losing all 5 starters.
I want to start seeing it. We've done these "projections" for the last 10 years and we're always sitting at home watching Dayton, VCU, etc. If our "off" or "rebuilding" years start becoming 20 win seasons I would be thrilled. That's the program I'd envision us having (Not that my opinion means anything). I'm not attacking you, and I understand the positive vibes now that we are a winning team but I just have to see it with Mooney after a decade.
I would love to expect it. But in all the guys you list we have returning - Wojcik, Sal, Burton, and Gustav - I think the only one that can be an all A10 player is possibly Burton and that depends on how he continues to develop the next 2 years. I think we have seen the ceiling for Wojcik and Sal - good players, but nothing more than bench role players. Sure - you can start them, but they are not really A10 caliber starters. Gustav is very good, but he seems much more of a compliment guy - sort of like Smitty was when he was here. A guy who will play defense, get some rebounds, assists, do a little bit everything - he is the perfect guy for the current team because we have all the scoring we need in Golden, Gilyard, Sherod, and Francis - but I don't see him developing into a guy who is going to step in for them when they leave. Wilson - we don't know - cause he is not even here yet.
Look back at the first team following our last NCAA run - they went 16-16 - and I thought we had a pretty decent team that like you said - could get us 20 wins and maybe an NIT look. That team had the following returning players
Garrett
Lindsay
Brothers
Duinker
Martel
D Williams
And brought in frosh like Kendall Anthony and Trey Davis (redshirted that year). We had a lot of returning pieces that you expected to step up - but they were not able to do so. I think some of it was coaching and poor development and some of it was these guys never really played together all that much.
That is why I agree with the comment above about redshirting - in theory it sounds good for Wilson, but at UR it rarely ends up being a good idea in terms of development.
Look back at the first team following our last NCAA run - they went 16-16 - and I thought we had a pretty decent team that like you said - could get us 20 wins and maybe an NIT look. That team had the following returning players
Garrett
Lindsay
Brothers
Duinker
Martel
D Williams
And brought in frosh like Kendall Anthony and Trey Davis (redshirted that year). We had a lot of returning pieces that you expected to step up - but they were not able to do so. I think some of it was coaching and poor development and some of it was these guys never really played together all that much.
That is why I agree with the comment above about redshirting - in theory it sounds good for Wilson, but at UR it rarely ends up being a good idea in terms of development.
that's a valid concern. when we graduated that class, I'm sure I thought we were simply reloading. we had good players in place behind them and we landed a pretty highly thought of class in Kendall Anthony, Trey Davis, ANO and Big Luke.
I do like our chances of continued success though. there's great talent behind our junior class. but the long term success of UR hoops heavily relies on the recruiting done between April and November of this year.
Only thing I will add is, in this modern era people need to be looking at losses instead of wins. (18-10 is a lot better than 20-14, especially when the added game are often again weaker teams)
It wouldn't surprise me at all if we follow the same trajectory as the last 10 year window. Actually I kind of expect it. But my point is we should expect more of our program and coaches. We shouldn't have to fall back for several years just to get the stars to align for a great 2 year window.
I agree that Burton has the highest ceiling, of course. But theres very little else...some complimentary players at best. Theres only a few scenarios that can happen after our junior class graduates: Mooney brings in 2 or 3 freshman studs that can play early on, we get another transfer or two who can immediately, or we suffer through multiple years of growing pains which is most likely to happen.
We very well might already have a great nucleus in place for 2021. Wilson and Crabtree are the wild cards. We're starting to get a really good idea of what we have in everyone else, so if Wilson can continue our outstanding point guard tradition, and Crabtree plays close to Burton's level, we could keep on keeping on. No question recruiting as always will be key, and finding someone to replace Grant will be at the top of the list. But, who knows, Grace might follow Mike Winieki's path and have an incredible senior year out of nowhere.
honestly, what did you feel about the current junior class before they became this good?
Francis had one offer ... Wagner. and he's too small to play the 2.
Cayo only had Richmond and he couldn't make a free throw.
Sherod isn't athletic enough.
Gilyard is too small.
Golden would have bigger offers than the Patriot League if he was that good.
yet look at them. Burton's playing great and if you watch Crabtree highlights you'll see he's going to have a similar impact. am I'm more excited about Wilson than most? his list is impressive and he sounds like a bulldog. we're going to love him. Sal's come a long way to me and will be really tough when it's his time to start. and while I agree Grace, Woj, and Goose are complimentary players, they're really good at their roles.
Good post sman, but I think it's time to talk about Goose being much more than a complimentary player. The guy can flat out play at a high level, and I think he will really take off after this class leaves.
but over and over after ever game, same people same comments.
The decision on what happened previously has already been made by the AD.
For those who think this year's team would have stayed without the coach they want, is being delusional.
For the last two years, unfortunately we've been rebuilding and this year the foundation has been put in place and we're enjoying it, after some not fun times.
That is why it "no longer matters".
yeah I agree. he may not be a shooter, but he does everything else extremely well.
Woj is a shooter. and while his defense isn't talked about as much as Goose, if you watch him it's excellent. but I think saying they're complimentary players isn't an insult. neither is a go-to offensive guy.
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It only took 15 years, but maybe we now have three beginnings of a Euro pipeline? Let's hope Goose knows a few other players over there who might like to follow him.
I agree if the new coach can convince some of these players to stick around, and he can bring in some fresh blood.
It does matter because history is the best predictor of future success, perhaps not for this season but longitudinally. We can agree to disagree.
George Santayana - 'Those who do not learn history are doomed to repeat it. '
2014–15 Chris Mooney 21–14 12–6 T–4th NIT Quarterfinals
2015–16 Chris Mooney 16–16 7–11 9th
Seems eerily familiar. Not saying I want this to happen or that it will happen exactly as shown, but a 4th place finish and an NIT birth sure seem like likely outcomes....As for the following year, there seems to be lots of certainty for next year already and I agree with Broc's post (which I have trimmed/edited):
Case in point which was posted AFTER the above:
2 final comments:
1) I will be at the Robins Center cheering like mad for the Spiders to beat Dayton. Do I expect them to win? Of course not. I do guarantee the Forum is going to have plenty of posts regardless of outcome and I feel like I can read some of the posts already (too bad I can't make any money on these intuitions)
2) If true, it is a travesty that UR is selling tickets for this game to the public in the student section. Class is IN SESSION. Isn't college basketball supposed to be FOR the students? A game like this COULD be the college memory for a current student who later becomes a passionate alum. Instead, they may not be able to sit in Robins at all.
Lurker - Quote above is for you. Interesting that you picked 5 years for your reference when what was mentioned was CM's body of work. Let's review: Season, Coach, Record, Conference record & place, Post-season
2014–15 Chris Mooney 21–14 12–6 T–4th NIT Quarterfinals
2015–16 Chris Mooney 16–16 7–11 9th
Seems eerily familiar. Not saying I want this to happen or that it will happen exactly as shown, but a 4th place finish and an NIT birth sure seem like likely outcomes....As for the following year, there seems to be lots of certainty for next year already and I agree with Broc's post (which I have trimmed/edited):
Case in point which was posted AFTER the above:
2 final comments:
1) I will be at the Robins Center cheering like mad for the Spiders to beat Dayton. Do I expect them to win? Of course not. I do guarantee the Forum is going to have plenty of posts regardless of outcome and I feel like I can read some of the posts already (too bad I can't make any money on these intuitions)
2) If true, it is a travesty that UR is selling tickets for this game to the public in the student section. Class is IN SESSION. Isn't college basketball supposed to be FOR the students? A game like this COULD be the college memory for a current student who later becomes a passionate alum. Instead, they may not be able to sit in Robins at all.
I believe im on record somewhere stating that this is the most talented team i have seen since J New...that comment did include Buckinham however.
I think Goose is and will be a key part of this team for the future. I just don't know if he turns into a guy that will score 15 points a night. Right now I think he is playing great, but a lot of what he brings to the table doesn't show up in the stat book - right now is at 20 minutes a night, with 4 points and 2.5 rebounds. He plays good defense, gets the ball to the right spot and person on offense, and keeps everything moving. And don't forget - next year he will be a junior, but with everyone coming back, does he really get more minutes than what he is now. It will be his senior year when he probably jumps into starting line-up and plays 30+ minutes a night.
Also - throw this name in there in terms of physically ready frosh similar to Burton. I thought Gaston Moliva was ready as well as a frosh in terms of size. Prob not so much skill, but with Wainwright - all he needed to do was rebound, defend and dunk - and Moliva did all 3 of those pretty well as a frosh. Went back and looked - his first season was 2004 NCAA year and he got 20 minutes a night, with 5 points and 4 rebounds. Injuries and coaching changes derailed him from there - but as a frosh, he was pretty good.
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