Early A10 COY question
- Thread starter SpiderTrap
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So I have a very different understanding of coaching contracts in general and specifically what a "buyout" means.
Here is my understanding. Virtually all coaches have guaranteed contracts, so they get paid no matter what. And they get paid on the same schedule as the contract called for when they are fired. Meaning if there are 3 years left on their contract when they get fired, they collect three years pay over three years (but see next sentence). Most all (but perhaps somewhat less than above) contracts have "offset" clauses or language that reduces the amount they get paid after being fired by any amount they earn during the remaining period of the contract. So sticking with example above, in year 1 after firing coach doesn't work, he collects full pay that year from old school. Year 2 and 3 he is an assistant somewhere else for half as much as his old contract called for, the old school pays him the other half each year. But coach ends up with full amount of the contract he signed (albeit some coming from his new employer). Some coaches (especially if they have offset language) will, at the time they are fired accept a "buyout" for less than the full amount, but there is rarely a clause in the contract that allows the school to do it unilaterally. Coaches will take this because they may believe they can get paid more in total this way. Let's say they think they can get a new job that pays basically the same their old job (think of a coach leaving a smaller school as Head Coach to return to a big school as an assistant after he failed as the head guy). If they just do that, they make the same pay either way, but the new school pays it all. If they get agree to a buyout, they get cash from old school and same pay from new school - - - more in total. Old school may do it because it lowers their exposure to paying coach the full remaining amount (i.e. if he doesn't find (or doesn't even look for a new job). his "buyout" will be for less than the full amount still owed.
Very few coaches have (or would in any way allow) any clause in their contract that provides that upon termination they can be "bought out" for less then the full remaining value of their contract. There are some (and in these instances these contracts do not have offset language) that have clauses that provide on termination they get paid the full remaining amount in one lump sum upon termination (perhaps adjusted for time value of money) but its rarely if ever for less than the full amount owed (although they may at the time of firing AGREE to be bought out as discussed above).
"Buyouts" in coaches contracts (and especially NCAA men's basketball and football) usually refers to the amount the COACH must pay the school if he leaves early! Many, but far from all, contracts contain these buyouts and the amount of buyouts (and the relationship to annual pay or even total contract value) varies widely. This is considered the quid pro quo for getting a guaranteed contract is that you can't just leave in the middle of your guaranteed contract "scot-free". Generally the new school will indirectly pay this by giving the coach they are hiring an amount (as a signing bonus or similar) what he needs to pay the buyback to the school he is departing (and taxes will complicate this situation a good deal). In practice, this buyout clause has become a way for schools to lessen the sting of losing your (successful) coach to another school and to make that other school pay! Coaches (and especially their agents) , however, do not like these buyouts because a school looking for a new coach might consider the presence of a buyout (or the amount of it) a detriment to hiring that coach and not consider a coach with a buyout (or too big a one). These buyouts are often added to contracts when the coach gets a big raise/extension new contract. And some coaches don't mind giving them because they actually like helping out their old school if they should ever choose to depart.
All of this and whats included and what isn't and what it specifically provides is a simple matter of leverage. Who has it and how much?
So I have read many contracts across a variety of sports (professional and college) that have some or all of these provisions. I have never seen a single one that contains a "buyout" that allows the school to pay the coach less then the remaining value of the contract! I have seen deals that attempt to limit the school's exposure to having to pay the coach when they fire him but these are generally structured as one year renewable contracts (or something similar) with a series of school options that also include a notice period or "severance". So with these, coach signs say a "5 year deal" that is actually a 2 years guaranteed deal with 3 one year annual renewable (at schools option) extensions and provide the school must provide, for example, 1 years notice of their intent not to pick up an option. So, when coach is fired after Year 2, what actually happens is he is given notice that school does not intend to pick up his Year 4 option and he still gets paid for Year 3. Thus the "five year deal" is effectively only a three year guaranteed deal. Terms and provisions on these deals vary widely!
All that said, I have not read Moon man's contract, but if I were a betting man I'd say he has a fully guaranteed deal that insures full payment of all remaining years, but also includes offset language. I doubt seriously if there is any way UR gets out from under the full obligation based on anything in the contract. And he almost certainly has a buyout that gets Richmond paid if he leaves for another job (officially by CM, but in reality by the school that hires him).
Here is my understanding. Virtually all coaches have guaranteed contracts, so they get paid no matter what. And they get paid on the same schedule as the contract called for when they are fired. Meaning if there are 3 years left on their contract when they get fired, they collect three years pay over three years (but see next sentence). Most all (but perhaps somewhat less than above) contracts have "offset" clauses or language that reduces the amount they get paid after being fired by any amount they earn during the remaining period of the contract. So sticking with example above, in year 1 after firing coach doesn't work, he collects full pay that year from old school. Year 2 and 3 he is an assistant somewhere else for half as much as his old contract called for, the old school pays him the other half each year. But coach ends up with full amount of the contract he signed (albeit some coming from his new employer). Some coaches (especially if they have offset language) will, at the time they are fired accept a "buyout" for less than the full amount, but there is rarely a clause in the contract that allows the school to do it unilaterally. Coaches will take this because they may believe they can get paid more in total this way. Let's say they think they can get a new job that pays basically the same their old job (think of a coach leaving a smaller school as Head Coach to return to a big school as an assistant after he failed as the head guy). If they just do that, they make the same pay either way, but the new school pays it all. If they get agree to a buyout, they get cash from old school and same pay from new school - - - more in total. Old school may do it because it lowers their exposure to paying coach the full remaining amount (i.e. if he doesn't find (or doesn't even look for a new job). his "buyout" will be for less than the full amount still owed.
Very few coaches have (or would in any way allow) any clause in their contract that provides that upon termination they can be "bought out" for less then the full remaining value of their contract. There are some (and in these instances these contracts do not have offset language) that have clauses that provide on termination they get paid the full remaining amount in one lump sum upon termination (perhaps adjusted for time value of money) but its rarely if ever for less than the full amount owed (although they may at the time of firing AGREE to be bought out as discussed above).
"Buyouts" in coaches contracts (and especially NCAA men's basketball and football) usually refers to the amount the COACH must pay the school if he leaves early! Many, but far from all, contracts contain these buyouts and the amount of buyouts (and the relationship to annual pay or even total contract value) varies widely. This is considered the quid pro quo for getting a guaranteed contract is that you can't just leave in the middle of your guaranteed contract "scot-free". Generally the new school will indirectly pay this by giving the coach they are hiring an amount (as a signing bonus or similar) what he needs to pay the buyback to the school he is departing (and taxes will complicate this situation a good deal). In practice, this buyout clause has become a way for schools to lessen the sting of losing your (successful) coach to another school and to make that other school pay! Coaches (and especially their agents) , however, do not like these buyouts because a school looking for a new coach might consider the presence of a buyout (or the amount of it) a detriment to hiring that coach and not consider a coach with a buyout (or too big a one). These buyouts are often added to contracts when the coach gets a big raise/extension new contract. And some coaches don't mind giving them because they actually like helping out their old school if they should ever choose to depart.
All of this and whats included and what isn't and what it specifically provides is a simple matter of leverage. Who has it and how much?
So I have read many contracts across a variety of sports (professional and college) that have some or all of these provisions. I have never seen a single one that contains a "buyout" that allows the school to pay the coach less then the remaining value of the contract! I have seen deals that attempt to limit the school's exposure to having to pay the coach when they fire him but these are generally structured as one year renewable contracts (or something similar) with a series of school options that also include a notice period or "severance". So with these, coach signs say a "5 year deal" that is actually a 2 years guaranteed deal with 3 one year annual renewable (at schools option) extensions and provide the school must provide, for example, 1 years notice of their intent not to pick up an option. So, when coach is fired after Year 2, what actually happens is he is given notice that school does not intend to pick up his Year 4 option and he still gets paid for Year 3. Thus the "five year deal" is effectively only a three year guaranteed deal. Terms and provisions on these deals vary widely!
All that said, I have not read Moon man's contract, but if I were a betting man I'd say he has a fully guaranteed deal that insures full payment of all remaining years, but also includes offset language. I doubt seriously if there is any way UR gets out from under the full obligation based on anything in the contract. And he almost certainly has a buyout that gets Richmond paid if he leaves for another job (officially by CM, but in reality by the school that hires him).
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Longest post ever, but an interesting read.
I think you might be off about the remaining buyout. I think he’s received (2?) one year extensions, either of which could have had a lower or partial buyout on each.
Pure speculation of course, but I think those were done to give the appearance he was fully guaranteed to be here for a full four years, not because he had earned the right to a full buyout on each.
Philly check out the link I posted.
It factually confirms that many schools have buyouts of coaches for much less than what remains on contract if terminated. This is common in college football too.
I’m surprised some of u have not heard about these buyouts b4. They have been around a while and will continue to be.
It factually confirms that many schools have buyouts of coaches for much less than what remains on contract if terminated. This is common in college football too.
I’m surprised some of u have not heard about these buyouts b4. They have been around a while and will continue to be.
Only buyouts I see that are less than full price of contract are the big time deals, where quite frankly - it does not matter as much because those guys will likely never get fired, or are making so much year over year - they probably could care less about the buyout. Example - Calipari gets 75% of remaining contract. His remaining contract is 86 million - so he will get 64.5 million if he is fired. Not too bad!!! Or Bil Self only gets the lesser of 2 years salary at about 5.9 million or remaining contract - whatever is less. So minimum he is getting 5.9 million if fired. Not bad. Plus - if he wasn't fired after this latest scandal - don't think he ever will be.
Really that's all you see? You must have looked at Calipari only. At least I believe spiderman looked at link realized incorrect said thanks and moved on. You said no buyouts was norm in p5 and that top level coaches don't have them. Wrong. And now you have the data looking u square in face and u still say so. LOL.
This just a few I grabbed quickly...
rick barnes - 1 mil per year
roy wiliams 1 mil per year
chris mack - 50%
izzo - 2 of 7 years
huggins - 50%
pearl - 50%
kruger - like 33%
muuselman - 70%
weber - 33%
Oats - 60-70%
prohn - 50%
pitino - 25%
brannen - 75%
kyle smith - 60%
It is not uncommon at all. Philly spider must read only low major contracts. That is where u don't get the buyouts and they get paid full compensation on their deals. Here is another example of college buyout with language - Jeremy Pruitt at UT as I was familiar with his contract.
https://footballscoop.com/news/whats-jeremy-pruitts-contract-situation-tennessee/
My head hurts.
We extend Mooney because it would hurt recruiting not to.
We don't buy out contracts, but will let them expire.
But we extend him again.
The cycle continues ad infinitum. Or ad nauseum.
We extend Mooney because it would hurt recruiting not to.
We don't buy out contracts, but will let them expire.
But we extend him again.
The cycle continues ad infinitum. Or ad nauseum.
I said they seem to exist with the big dollar deals - where those guys are rarely fired and have amassed the money that it doesn't matter, and I see it in the very low ranks. So very top of the scale and very bottom of the scale - might exist, but it looks like from the list - close to 80% or more have a full buyout/guaranteed deal.
Breaking down your list below.
rick barnes - 1 mil per year. INCORRECT. Website if he is terminated without cause, he gets 100% of remaining deal and $100,000 to use for health insurance.
roy wiliams 1 mil per year. Correct, but I put him at the top scale. He already makes 4 million per year and I would throw him in the never to be fired category.
chris mack - 50%. Correct - but again, at top of scale. If he were fired today, he would get 12 million. He essentially gets 3 years worth of salary if ever fired. And his salary is 4 million a year.
izzo - 2 of 7 years - again at the top. 2 years is worth 7 million. Never getting fired.
huggins - 50% - top tier - he gets 4 million a year and 60% of that if fired. Likely never to be fired.
pearl - 50%. Right now this is worth 10 million. He gets 3.8 million a year so he gets half of that if fired.
So yes - you are correct, in that they don't all get 100% deals when fired. But probably need to focus on guys in Mooney's realm. Right around the 1 million mark.
Rhoades VCU - 100%
Kyle Smith Wash St - 60%
Otzelberger UNLV - 100%
Dooley ECU - 45% - 100% of base salary only
Jacobson NIU - 100%
Weir NM - 85% - 100% base +300K
Hutson Freson - 50%
McDevitt - MTU - 100%
Rice Boise - 100%
Terry - UTEP - 100%
I stopped at Terry because he was making 725K and below that is below 700K which is to cheap for Mooney's blood. Also remember no private schools are on here. I tried to find what St. Joes had to payout Martelli when they fired him, but could find anything.
I would say smaller schools - paying less than 200K are less likely to fully guarantee because they don't have money to begin with. These are schools that will let the contract run out rather than fire. Big time schools where you making 2+ million year will either fully guarantee or come up with a large amount.
Mid-level schools, where UR falls into - i would say more likely to fully guarantee as this is one way to compete and keep your coach after they have success and interview with other schools. You can guarantee longevity and piece of mind for a longer period of time. Some will take it and stay (Mooney) some will leave (Shaka).
Breaking down your list below.
rick barnes - 1 mil per year. INCORRECT. Website if he is terminated without cause, he gets 100% of remaining deal and $100,000 to use for health insurance.
roy wiliams 1 mil per year. Correct, but I put him at the top scale. He already makes 4 million per year and I would throw him in the never to be fired category.
chris mack - 50%. Correct - but again, at top of scale. If he were fired today, he would get 12 million. He essentially gets 3 years worth of salary if ever fired. And his salary is 4 million a year.
izzo - 2 of 7 years - again at the top. 2 years is worth 7 million. Never getting fired.
huggins - 50% - top tier - he gets 4 million a year and 60% of that if fired. Likely never to be fired.
pearl - 50%. Right now this is worth 10 million. He gets 3.8 million a year so he gets half of that if fired.
So yes - you are correct, in that they don't all get 100% deals when fired. But probably need to focus on guys in Mooney's realm. Right around the 1 million mark.
Rhoades VCU - 100%
Kyle Smith Wash St - 60%
Otzelberger UNLV - 100%
Dooley ECU - 45% - 100% of base salary only
Jacobson NIU - 100%
Weir NM - 85% - 100% base +300K
Hutson Freson - 50%
McDevitt - MTU - 100%
Rice Boise - 100%
Terry - UTEP - 100%
I stopped at Terry because he was making 725K and below that is below 700K which is to cheap for Mooney's blood. Also remember no private schools are on here. I tried to find what St. Joes had to payout Martelli when they fired him, but could find anything.
I would say smaller schools - paying less than 200K are less likely to fully guarantee because they don't have money to begin with. These are schools that will let the contract run out rather than fire. Big time schools where you making 2+ million year will either fully guarantee or come up with a large amount.
Mid-level schools, where UR falls into - i would say more likely to fully guarantee as this is one way to compete and keep your coach after they have success and interview with other schools. You can guarantee longevity and piece of mind for a longer period of time. Some will take it and stay (Mooney) some will leave (Shaka).
The bonuses are interesting too. Rhodes has a good one.
Max Bonus is $542,500 (assume that amount is for league title, wins over ranked teams, NCAA appearances, etc). but also gets $4,000 per student-athlete who graduates by summer of completion of eligibility, $2,000 per student-athlete who graduates within one year after completion of eligibility and $3,500 per national television appearance. So if a kid graduates on time basically or summer after season is over - he gets $4k and one year later he still gets $2k. Also $3,500 for national tv games. Not sure what classifies as national tv games - but they have 6 ESPN games - so that right there is 21K. Nice little christmas present for the kids.
Max Bonus is $542,500 (assume that amount is for league title, wins over ranked teams, NCAA appearances, etc). but also gets $4,000 per student-athlete who graduates by summer of completion of eligibility, $2,000 per student-athlete who graduates within one year after completion of eligibility and $3,500 per national television appearance. So if a kid graduates on time basically or summer after season is over - he gets $4k and one year later he still gets $2k. Also $3,500 for national tv games. Not sure what classifies as national tv games - but they have 6 ESPN games - so that right there is 21K. Nice little christmas present for the kids.
My head hurts too. Nice moving of the goal posts. Your focus was originally on major conf coaches & P5. That is what I disputed. Fact is many major conf coaches have buyouts & I even gave you a link which shows just that. Not sure why you broke down just the top names on the list & stopped at Pearl, listed 7-8 more...also add in sean miller, juwan howard, greg gard. There are a lot, there r more, & of course privates do it too. Was never about mid majors or lower. Never was about whether the buyouts r easy to pay. Some r, some aren't.
When we did 1 year extension w Moon u could have added buyout, guy was making 1.2 mil + and had a 10 year original deal & had zippo ncaas to show for it, if u can't add a buyout to an extension deal we need smarter ppl at UR. Maybe it only saves you $200k. Great. We can hire all the consultants we want.
When we did 1 year extension w Moon u could have added buyout, guy was making 1.2 mil + and had a 10 year original deal & had zippo ncaas to show for it, if u can't add a buyout to an extension deal we need smarter ppl at UR. Maybe it only saves you $200k. Great. We can hire all the consultants we want.
Let him walk no matter what. Theres no way we should reward the arsonist firefighter. He starts a dumpster fire and then wants a reward for putting out his own fire? I don't think so.
Attached is the link to the list of A10 COY winners
https://www.coachesdatabase.com/atlantic-10-coach-of-the-year/
I believe that I am correct with the following statements
Our Coach is now the "Dean of Coaches" in the A-10 (16 years)
Our coach now holds the record for coaching the most consecutive years in the A10 without being named COY -a record it looks like may never be broken(15years)
This along with being
The coach with the most wins in UR history
The coach with the most losses in UR history
Both of the these records probably will never be broken
https://www.coachesdatabase.com/atlantic-10-coach-of-the-year/
I believe that I am correct with the following statements
Our Coach is now the "Dean of Coaches" in the A-10 (16 years)
Our coach now holds the record for coaching the most consecutive years in the A10 without being named COY -a record it looks like may never be broken(15years)
This along with being
The coach with the most wins in UR history
The coach with the most losses in UR history
Both of the these records probably will never be broken
So what you are saying is Mooney is the classic stats aggregator, keeps piling them up because he received a 10 year deal, and gets out of bed every morning and goes to work?
Twitter is like a billboard, both pollute the environment. Less twitter and fewer billboards lead to better attitudes and a better climate.
Goodman is not a smart man. If you recall this is Goodtymes from the old A10 board. He has carved a good career by just being a gasbag, but not a smart human being, just a breather.
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