Was a pleasure to see these 2 coaches involved in Florida’s success this year. We may see one of them back here when King Mooney moves on🕸️🕷️🏀
Congratulations to Hovde and Hartman
- Thread starter UR79&Peanuts
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That would be quite the full circle turnaround for Hartman. Getting fired under Mooney for ncaa violations & then replacing Moon man. And yes, I like Hartman & the dismissal was soft af. Just saying.
I don't know if the Ivy route is the way to climb the ladder anymore. They will not take part in the paying players and NIL, so even if you win there, which will be difficult - not sure bigger programs will be looking to poach you anymore because the Ivy is playing in different world without NIL. Sure - you might be a good coach, but in the NIL world - its less and less about coaching and more about managing a roster.
Resigned after NCAA violation around texting and phoning recruits...awfully tame by today's standards, but was judged to be a major violation because he knew it wasn't permissible and was done repeatedly. Spider women's coach Chris Carroll also resigned over it.
Ivy was always different with no scholarships, but it was still competitive D1 ball and a good coaching job.
Without helping student athletes get NIL ... whether through this new revenue sharing or even allowing collectives, the Ivy has started losing it's best players to transfer. Maybe a kid could justify not getting a scholaship for that degree, but he can't justify not getting paid hundreds of thousands of dollars.
They're really a D3 league going forward. The days of being a top 15 hoops conference are probably coming to an end.
Will be interesting to see. James Jones lost likely NBA draft pick Wolf to Michigan..........and improved his record and made NCAA again.
I admit the mid majors are facing an uphill battle in the big $ NIL battle. But the good coaches seem to find a way to excel. SDSU has basically lost an entire starting 5 to Power conferences last couple years, and continued to make NCAA.
Even power conference team Houston, how many 5 stars did they have on the team? I bet St. Mary's is good again next year.
I admit the mid majors are facing an uphill battle in the big $ NIL battle. But the good coaches seem to find a way to excel. SDSU has basically lost an entire starting 5 to Power conferences last couple years, and continued to make NCAA.
Even power conference team Houston, how many 5 stars did they have on the team? I bet St. Mary's is good again next year.
Probably because the rest of the Ivy got weaker. Nobody used to transfer out of the Ivy.
Looks like just about every player on the all-Ivy 1st and 2nd team this year is either graduating or in the portal.
Most of Columbia is in the portal too, but that's not unusual with a coach being fired. Hovde may be able to re-recruit some of them back.
I liked Carlin Hartman. Will never forget him taking time to visit my son’s high school practice at Midlothian.
In regards to Yale, they actually were better - Kenpom 74 this season, Kenpom 90 season prior with Wolf.
true. but at least partially that's because they went 13-1 this year in conference ... vs 11-3 last year.
conference got a little weaker, and with all the transfers out this year it looks like a trend.
I just expect the conference to struggle without allowing payments.
Would love to hire him as our head coach. Not really interested in hiring Hovde.
interesting. guess they were better without Wolf. doesn't change that I think the conference will comparatively struggle going forward without payments. good players are leaving.
Many coaches were doing it, Carlin just got caught. Didm't they do away with the rule about 6 months later.
Even at the time - it seemed like a case of Kentucky got caught paying a guy $1M so let's take it out on Cleveland State, or Richmond. Bad timing, though the rule was well known. Guess this was not a case of institutional control, but rather thanks for your efforts Mr. Scapegoat.
So he was he a mens' assistant coach and the women's Coach Chris Carroll was also caught and resigned.
Yes, they were both doing it.
Mooney also got his hand slapped for not properly documenting phone calls. Coaches were only allowed two calls per week to a given recruit, but if the call went to voice mail/answering machine and lasted less than two minutes, it didn't count. Mooney exceeded the call limit over a several-month period but didn't document which ones may have gone to voice mail.
Mooney also got his hand slapped for not properly documenting phone calls. Coaches were only allowed two calls per week to a given recruit, but if the call went to voice mail/answering machine and lasted less than two minutes, it didn't count. Mooney exceeded the call limit over a several-month period but didn't document which ones may have gone to voice mail.
The person who caught the, at the time malfeasance, was young and fresh out of college. The person did the right thing and brought it to the attention of the superiors. The person liked Hartman. Compliance employees were a kind of new concept at the time. The person told me much later what occurred.
The person stayed in athletics for a number of years moving up to larger programs. The person now runs their own business.
How do I know? The person is a family member.
article about Ivy's decision not to opt in ... the only conference not to do so.
"Get your heads out of the sand, recognize where we are in college athletics in 2025 and avoid what appears to be a possible slide into low-major or Division III status."
Could Division III be in the Ivy League’s future?
Dear Ivy League presidents: I have tried to warn you for almost three years. The warning signs were there. The arrogance was pervasive. The lack of understanding of the current landscape of college…
ivyhoopsonline.com
I think there will always be a place for the Ivy's in D1. You will always have a small subset of athletes, who truly are students first and value a great education and while the Ivy's don't offer scholarships - the sports allow athletes to get into their prestigious schools with lower admissions, and then the schools can produce financial aid packages to the athletes - just not the full amount. So if you have a kid who has D1 basketball talent, but is also a very good student - the offer of going to Princeton or Columbia and being able to play D1, get a top education, and it likely only cost 5K a year or less - will still have value to kids (and parents).
the point of the article is that that's outdated thinking.
scholarships used to be the only difference. the Ivy's could count on their superior academic rep to overcome that. Ivy's give financial aid strictly based on financial need and some players get a lot, but I doubt the pool of Ivy-smart kids from poor families is huge. at some point, the Ivy degree isn't worth the NIL differential.
a lot of good Ivy hoops kid are transferring now and they should. or they're not going there in the 1st place. no one should turn down a huge payday from another respected school to stay in the Ivy. it's hard to make that up in the real world.
the Ivy has some good basketball history but they'll be irrelevant in hoops going forward. I guess they're fine with that. but to me if you want to play in D1, then play by D1 rules.
scholarships used to be the only difference. the Ivy's could count on their superior academic rep to overcome that. Ivy's give financial aid strictly based on financial need and some players get a lot, but I doubt the pool of Ivy-smart kids from poor families is huge. at some point, the Ivy degree isn't worth the NIL differential.
a lot of good Ivy hoops kid are transferring now and they should. or they're not going there in the 1st place. no one should turn down a huge payday from another respected school to stay in the Ivy. it's hard to make that up in the real world.
the Ivy has some good basketball history but they'll be irrelevant in hoops going forward. I guess they're fine with that. but to me if you want to play in D1, then play by D1 rules.
I think the main difference will be those recruits that have Ivy options but also middle ground mid-majors options. Not saying that those schools will pay a lot of money - but some will, and while in the past the Ivy might be able to win some of those battles with their education - might be tougher if a lower end school can offer full scholarship and maybe 40K in the kids pocket.
But the Ivy has ways around this as well. I know the Ivy has opted out of the settlement, which simply means the school will not pay the athletes directly. They also have a rule that says No collectives in the Ivy league. But would a wealthy Ivy league donor (and there are a lot of them) who likely now runs their own business be able to sign an athlete or athletes to NIL deal? I don't think the school can restrict that can they? And tell the athletes - they are not allowed to accept any NIL money of any kind?
I also know as a fact the other way Ivy league schools sell themselves to athletes is through summer work programs/internships. Had a friend in our neighborhood who was being recruited a few years ago, before NIL to attend and play a sport at an Ivy league school. School was able to offer aid and packages (not income based) that brought the annual bill down to less than 10K a year for an Ivy league education - not bad. But they said the coaches also told them - don't worry about that bill, we have a strong network of summer internships that will pay you 5-6 times that amount in the summer months each year. Have to imagine some truth to that as well.
But the Ivy has ways around this as well. I know the Ivy has opted out of the settlement, which simply means the school will not pay the athletes directly. They also have a rule that says No collectives in the Ivy league. But would a wealthy Ivy league donor (and there are a lot of them) who likely now runs their own business be able to sign an athlete or athletes to NIL deal? I don't think the school can restrict that can they? And tell the athletes - they are not allowed to accept any NIL money of any kind?
I also know as a fact the other way Ivy league schools sell themselves to athletes is through summer work programs/internships. Had a friend in our neighborhood who was being recruited a few years ago, before NIL to attend and play a sport at an Ivy league school. School was able to offer aid and packages (not income based) that brought the annual bill down to less than 10K a year for an Ivy league education - not bad. But they said the coaches also told them - don't worry about that bill, we have a strong network of summer internships that will pay you 5-6 times that amount in the summer months each year. Have to imagine some truth to that as well.
I'm not talking about competing with middle ground mid-majors.
I'm talking about the high end 1st team All Ivy kids who are transferring out for big NIL deals.
The kids that used to stay to get their degree pre-NIL. The kind you need to pull upsets in the tournament.
Jordan Dingle to St Johns ... Danny Wolf to Michigan ...
this year the Ivy looks to be losing at least 4 All Ivy kids to big NIL deals: Xaivian Lee, Ryan Cornish, AK Okereke and Sam Brown.
yes, I suppose a big donor could fund this himself. but that doesn't seem to be happening. they're leaving. because the Ivy is anti-NIL.
I'm talking about the high end 1st team All Ivy kids who are transferring out for big NIL deals.
The kids that used to stay to get their degree pre-NIL. The kind you need to pull upsets in the tournament.
Jordan Dingle to St Johns ... Danny Wolf to Michigan ...
this year the Ivy looks to be losing at least 4 All Ivy kids to big NIL deals: Xaivian Lee, Ryan Cornish, AK Okereke and Sam Brown.
yes, I suppose a big donor could fund this himself. but that doesn't seem to be happening. they're leaving. because the Ivy is anti-NIL.
The irony is that if the Ivy were to go the athletic scholarship, house settlement, NIL route they could easily become one of the best conferences in the country. Each schools’ endowment is in the 10s of billions and there are a ton of wealthy donors. You offer a kid a full ride scholarship to play at Ivy with chance to get however much money through collectives and the network connections an Ivy has, that’s a really tough offer to turn done.
But this is happening all over the country in non-Ivy leagues. Lower to mid-major schools and conferences are losing all conference players to move up, this is not an Ivy specific problem. Look at Robert Morris in the Horizon - they made the NCAA tourney and almost had a first round upset. They also had the Horizon player of the year on their roster. Their entire starting 5 entered the portal.
My point is that I am talking about the kid who might take 1-2-3 years to develop into an all Ivy player, one who knows their future is not likely basketball, one who values the education piece. AND - as long as the Ivy can secure a spot in the NCAA tourney with their auto-bid, they all still have a chance at the big dance and upsets.
But you do bring a good analysis - I wonder if you went through all the mid-major and low end leagues and just pulled the first and second team all conference players, I wonder how many of them entered the portal (that have eligibility left of course). I got a feeling its going to be a high percentage across the board.
I assume lower leagues often lost their best players to better leagues, especially after they did away with the forced redshirt year for transfers. The Ivy league never lost players until Dingle. They thought he was a one-off, He was making a mistake. Now a bunch have followed.
The Ivy will stay in D1 but in my opinion and as theorized in that article, they'll be a lesser league than they've been. They've won tournament games. They've been a top 12 league. They have the resources to be even more. But they're blowing it.
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