No only that, but if you have good funds to pay for portal players that don't pan out as expected, then what? We've certainly had mixed results.
Coaching incompetence
- Thread starter Eight Legger
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Its incompetent to think that in today's version of basketball that you can build a winner with 4 year guys out of high school. That last class group that stayed together is probably the last we'll see like that. Running a "system" that requires years of playing together isn't going to work.
Bonnies know this - look at Woj.
Pitino knows this
Bonnies know this - look at Woj.
Pitino knows this
Mooney is all over the board on everything.
Don't even want to listen to any of his interviews, and did not read article. But the paraphrasing on here is that he is back to how long it takes to learn the system, so this experiment with one year players (B. Artis, Dusan, etc) is not working great.
BUT last season King seemed to do decent
.
His best teams are when we have one, if not two great guards, that just get the ball and score and don't rely on his antiquated system. We have seen this time and time again with KA, K0, Gilly, etc. We saw when Gilly decided to be the man and take the offense over it saved Moon's bacon.
So when we have two more mediocre years with young guys getting time, I fully expect him to pivot back to building via the portal, and say -GEEZ you have to build via portal these days.
Don't even want to listen to any of his interviews, and did not read article. But the paraphrasing on here is that he is back to how long it takes to learn the system, so this experiment with one year players (B. Artis, Dusan, etc) is not working great.
BUT last season King seemed to do decent
. His best teams are when we have one, if not two great guards, that just get the ball and score and don't rely on his antiquated system. We have seen this time and time again with KA, K0, Gilly, etc. We saw when Gilly decided to be the man and take the offense over it saved Moon's bacon.
So when we have two more mediocre years with young guys getting time, I fully expect him to pivot back to building via the portal, and say -GEEZ you have to build via portal these days.
Yes, and Mooney has tried - with some success last season. But now he is somehow so smart that he is going to pivot to HS guys. Yes, I have full confidence this will work out for Mooney. It's crazy.
I get that it might be Monopoly money to PQ, but can you imagine the NIL conversation?
"Thanks for the $xxx,xxx NIL donation last year. Yeah I know ... 8 D1 wins was disappointing. Losing to VCU by a combined 59 points was no fun either. Anyway ... can I put you down for another $xxx,xxx?"
No idea where Borzello gets his sources and don't get why it would be mentioned in the article, if he writes that Mooney has not informed anyone about the decision.From the "potential retirements" section of Borzello's coaching carousel roundup earlier today...
Your guide to the men's basketball coaching carousel: Hot seats, top targets, more
Seats are heating up with the first firing this week. Who could be next -- and next up? Here's what we know.www.espn.com
I don't think it's that farfetched of an idea that Mooney will retire sooner than he stated and sometime before his current contract ends. We know that Mooney is not going to deviate from his offensive system and we know that he prefers high school recruits that can develop over 4-5 years. He probably recognizes that neither of this is practical in today's college hoops era. If he is not willing to adapt, then it'll lead to seasons like this more often than not.
I wonder if the idea has crossed his mind to retire from head coaching. A lot of other coaches who had been in college basketball for awhile, have done so. I could see our department offering him an advisory role or GM-like role with our basketball program. He can remain involved participating in peripheral matters, while not directly over seeing the recruiting/NIL/basketball scheme that can be stress inducing. Could be a win-win situation all around.
at this point what are the alternatives? we're not burning redshirts. Hunt, AP and GW3 are hurt. who do you want to get more time? Soulis? ok, fine. I can play Soulis more and still feel like I'm playing to win.
I only know Kevin casually, he’s hardly my boy. It’s not the kind of topic I’d press him on. But he’s a pretty rational guy who unlike Ayers or Crutcher sees marketing value in athletics and doesn’t view it as an albatross that the university must carry. But I think he’s also going to trust input from others, so it’ll be up to Hardt, Hale and others on the Board to set tone.
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I’m arguing that the decision could have been made weeks to even months ago on this. There was no indication this team was going to suddenly turn the corner when we got to A10 play.
But yes, at this point there are no real great options other than to experiment with playing Walz and soulis together to get him more time.
You're my boy, Blue! Anyway I was j/k about being boys. Just curious have you asked him about Mooney tho? What tact u take is completely up to u of course so, but I think it's reasonable topic at minimum to gently raise if u see him casually. I think he likes Mooney & I base off my own admittedly very light personal experience w him. Of course things can change.
Hale has zero credibility when it comes to athletics....he butchered the whole Hardt hiring process with media...and flat out lied. he may be a valuable employee otherwise i have no idea but that was a comically bad moment for him imo.
And I think those kind of conversations have to be happening, right? It's different from giving to Spider Club back in the day or just generally donating to athletics -- these people are specifically funding our players with the hope/expectation that the team does well. When the team falls on its face, then what? I sure wouldn't have much confidence handing over more cash.
The best place for Mooney to go if he wants high school recruits he can coach for 4 years is Freeman High School.
NO NO NO. This is a SpiderTrap scenario. Hire Peter, put Moon in GM role. The beat and slide continues. AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
Does the university need a wedding planner? I know a guy.
No way UR will immediately hire Peter to replace Mooney. Mooney isn’t a Jay Wright or Tony Bennett level with success to garner that. Plus, I think everyone will recognize that it would be better to get a fresh perspective leading our basketball team.
As far as the GM like role, why would that be so bad? He can offer insight, help with the basketball operations in a different manner, while not being the one having to deal with all the nitty gritty stuff that comes with being a head coach. As long as he isn’t directly involved with the recruiting or basketball scheme, I don’t see a problem with it. I doubt Woj tells Mark Schmidt what to do with the X’s and O’s, but can offer other valuable insight and assets.
If this kind of season happens again next year there will be even more clamoring for his dismissal and definitely the year after that. There has to be some appeal for Mooney to leave before things hit absolute rock bottom. Plus, he can still be compensated and involved with UR basketball to some degree, albeit to a different extent. This could definitely be a win-win scenario for all parties involved.
No, terrible idea on the GM role - No offense . Need a high energy , high connected guy in that role. Not Moon.
. Need a high energy , high connected guy in that role. Not Moon.
Tim Hightower for GM. He's a Spider, super smart and successful guy, still local, would bring a football mentality to a different sport and help mix things up a little bit.
No, terrible idea on the GM role - No offense
yep completely miscast in that role imo. But I find the scenario to be fantasyland for a number of other reasons too.
I'm not sure how this wholly opting in and paying players directly effects things. But, if you are one of the NIL big boys and gave 10K or 20K last year to support our NIL and then have to watch this season play out where we are not even fielding a competitive product.
You have to be pissed off right? You have to be considering whether or not you come back for round 2 next year. You have to be questioning whether we have the right guy spending your money effectively.
I would further imagine that Mooney has to chat with these folks on occasion and I can't imagine that is going to be a pleasant conversation whenever the next one is. Mooney sold them a bill of goods at the beginning of the year about how our prospects for this season, one of the best shooting team he had assembled, we would play fast and score a lot about all of the talent he brough it. He obviously didn't deliver on any of that. I almost want to chip in 10K to just to listen in on that meeting.
if I was a big money NIL donor, yeah I'd expect a lot of contact. heck, I'd want to be in the room when the staff is discussing who to recruit and pay. I'd be watching game film!
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My thought is that if we have another year like this one next year, that keeping Mooney will become untenable to many.
I think the non sell-out, lots of empty seats for the rivalry game last night probably didn't sit well with some of the powers that be. You can't hide from the optics of the arena last night and how different of a feel that was for anyone in recent memory.
Wish u were right but I think he gets 2 more years minimum. Contract buys him time he knows it that’s why some of us believe we r playing the long game next year. Be young just have some of the 5 frosh show some promise and all good.
Even tho we can afford a buy out anytime I just don’t see us doing more than 2 & that’s if things continue badly. After next season still got 3 years left. It’s why the last unnecessary extension screwed us as predicted.
It’s another reason I don’t see us as players in portal this offseason. Now it’s more beneficial (for him) to go young. We’ll get some fillers and attrition plays a role. But I’m not seeing it. We’ll see. He’s already laid out his plans he’s reinvesting on the 4-5 year hs player development program.
I think the whole NIL and paying players might have some impact on timelines. The Athletic department not only has to be concerned about Mooney's salary anymore, but also the pay for players, which from our previous conversations seems to be in the 7 figures annually.
Plus we have our NIL bros chipping in and providing input and maybe not wanting to pile more of their $$$ into a ship that has failed them twice.
You could be right, what you expouse is how our athletic department traditionally thinks. But all of these changes with paying players that is hitting college basketball so rapidly, may force them to change how they've traditionally done business. It also allows more voices into the conversation as our NIL bros also will have some voice.
Understand the Board is meeting Friday, likely to finalize our position.
Way too much wishful thinking. I'd like to think that CM will prove me wrong, but I think he stays through current extension.
I get that for many of you here, you want Mooney entirely removed from our athletic department, but I think my though is a potentially very good compromise to things and everyone can benefit and certainly something for all parties to consider.
The way I see it, there are 3 truths. 1) There is no external incentive for Mooney to quit before his contract expires. There is no reason for him to leave millions of dollars on the table unless there is an internal reason i.e. he has enough money, wants to spend time with family, genuinely doesn't like it anymore or the direction its heading. So it's hard for me to see Mooney willingly stepping away for nothing in return. 2) Richmond will never fire Mooney. If there is going to be a coaching change, they will either let the contract expire or they will say its a mutual decision to part ways, or say Mooney is retiring. Just like the Patriots with Belichick. Mooney's been here 20 years so it's out of respect. 3) Mooney isn't going to coach anywhere else after UR.
So what is a good solution to this that allows everyone to save face and ease the transition? Mooney switches over to a paid advisory and pseudo-GM role. We can still hire another GM too. He remains involved with the basketball team, still gets paid, and does not have to deal with the headaches of coaching in this college era. He can continue to work at UR and this can be a semi-retirement kind of job. It's also a way to ease out of coaching without leaving on a very sour note, which is have 2-3 years of terrible results and forcing the school that has given you so much in your life, to make the decision of having a coaching change after being there so long.
In return, we hire a different head coach who is in primarily responsible for recruiting, offensive/defensive scheme, etc. Yet Mooney, can still offer other guidance/mentorship as well.
I think this might be the best approach. The alternative is Mooney is here for the next 3-4 years and either turns it around, or will have to continue to have difficult seasons like this, leading to some awkward conversations.
The way I see it, there are 3 truths. 1) There is no external incentive for Mooney to quit before his contract expires. There is no reason for him to leave millions of dollars on the table unless there is an internal reason i.e. he has enough money, wants to spend time with family, genuinely doesn't like it anymore or the direction its heading. So it's hard for me to see Mooney willingly stepping away for nothing in return. 2) Richmond will never fire Mooney. If there is going to be a coaching change, they will either let the contract expire or they will say its a mutual decision to part ways, or say Mooney is retiring. Just like the Patriots with Belichick. Mooney's been here 20 years so it's out of respect. 3) Mooney isn't going to coach anywhere else after UR.
So what is a good solution to this that allows everyone to save face and ease the transition? Mooney switches over to a paid advisory and pseudo-GM role. We can still hire another GM too. He remains involved with the basketball team, still gets paid, and does not have to deal with the headaches of coaching in this college era. He can continue to work at UR and this can be a semi-retirement kind of job. It's also a way to ease out of coaching without leaving on a very sour note, which is have 2-3 years of terrible results and forcing the school that has given you so much in your life, to make the decision of having a coaching change after being there so long.
In return, we hire a different head coach who is in primarily responsible for recruiting, offensive/defensive scheme, etc. Yet Mooney, can still offer other guidance/mentorship as well.
I think this might be the best approach. The alternative is Mooney is here for the next 3-4 years and either turns it around, or will have to continue to have difficult seasons like this, leading to some awkward conversations.
I'm not even entirely sure what a GM does, but I can't see Mooney or any head coach really wanting to transition to that. the GM position is more administrative.
Mooney's under contract to coach for like 4 more years. I think that's what he wants to do. unless there's a buyout in the contract for less than the total, we're either going to pay him the full amount to coach or pay him the full amount not to. that's where I'd stand if I was him. no way I move to GM.
Mooney's under contract to coach for like 4 more years. I think that's what he wants to do. unless there's a buyout in the contract for less than the total, we're either going to pay him the full amount to coach or pay him the full amount not to. that's where I'd stand if I was him. no way I move to GM.
I'd be interested to know the agreements that Bennett, Hamilton, Larranaga and all the other guys who have retired made with their schools. They all had millions on the table, too, but technically they resigned. I doubt they are getting nothing, but I doubt they are getting all of it, either.
Completely agree. Don't see us going all in on true impact players. More guys like B. Artis, looking to move up conferences and get a little exposure - but not able to pull the big conference offers or NIL. So looking forward to a boring portal season.
so the same as when we landed Jordan King. we didn't have to beat out high majors for him either.
good players will be out there, but I can't expect us to outspend the power conferences. as always we're looking for diamonds in the rough.
As Meat Loaf sang "There ain't no Coupe de Ville hiding at the bottom of a Cracker Jack box"
If we just slightly adjust the lyrics to five out of nine ain’t bad it perfectly describes the Mooney regime.
Totally agree. Worst place for him to land. He's got better credentials to head up concessions at Robins Stadium and Robins Center. He proven to beat VCU at something.No, terrible idea on the GM role - No offense
He'd be a great consultant to future participants in the Chili Cook- Off!
those aren't truths
1 - ok
2 - no. richmond has paid to have many problems go away. unfortunately they don't view as a problem. status quo. good guy. so I don't see it happening anytime soon, but i do think UR would eventually eat it if things continue badly. who cares what they call it.
3 - nah. has said wants to keep coaching a long time. he's still young. wants to coach his son or sons.
& why would we put a coach we pushed out for performance reasons into a job where he still has big role in selecting players. why would a new coach with a new style want the old coach to be his GM. why would Moon want to do that for a new guy either. none of it makes sense.
If he is Coach For Life then yeah I'm sure he could get an advisory role when he retires willingly. Heck maybe the UR Presidency. He'd be better at Pres than GM imo.
we just have to sack up, fire him, hopefully have a favorable buyout (doubt it), take the $ loss for good of program long term. u want the lazy river transition. where r the big rides, the big ones.
a couple months ago u thought the extension was a great thing. so at least u r thinking of ways to get out of it.
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