Change in basketball recruiting strategy?

[MrTbone]

The point is that Mooney is the most powerful person in the athletic department. Surely he realized that. What were they going to do, fire him and pay him the rest of his guaranteed money just like that to make him go away? Of course not. He had all the power.

And you know what? If at the end of the day the powers that be refused to allow him to do his job the way he wanted to, he was always free to walk away from the job and the money and get another job somewhere else where he would have that flexibility.

Eight, I generally consider you to be a rational guy. This is a fairly irrational argument. Have we ever had a head coach of any sport at UR that rules the roost?

The notion that our coaches should comport themselves in a way that puts them above school policies and procedures is not how UR rolls.

What you should be asking for is that the coach is in a position to not have to do that, either because the policies are flexible for him/her or if outside policy, there is a power structure that will go to bat. That hasn’t been the case for a long time.

 

[Captain Anderson]

I think all the different opinions on this thread of who is to "blame" show that if we want to be a consistent top 3 team in the A-10 we need a complete overhaul of how we do things from the administration to the President down to the athletic department and coaching staff. We need a new mission statement that prioritizes our basketball program as the flagship program for not only our athletic department but our school. Everyone needs to be rowing in the same direction. Sadly I don't think the powers that be will ever embrace this view. Now I'm not talking about becoming some rogue basketball factory but we aren't even close to reaching our full potential as a program because of self imposed fear of change. It's a shame. I'm sure Loyola's academic reputation is taking a huge beating the last few weeks and I'm sure their applications won't be through the roof next year. You can excel in both fields...we just choose not too.

 

[ChoppinBroccoli]

Considering this trustee is talking to a poster who starts multiple threads based on complete fallacies, perhaps the trustee is horribly misinformed about what the majority of posters think?

 

[Eight Legger]

Eight, I generally consider you to be a rational guy. This is a fairly irrational argument. Have we ever had a head coach of any sport at UR that rules the roost?

The notion that our coaches should comport themselves in a way that puts them above school policies and procedures is not how UR rolls.

What you should be asking for is that the coach is in a position to not have to do that, either because the policies are flexible for him/her or if outside policy, there is a power structure that will go to bat. That hasn’t been the case for a long time.

Understood. And I agree that it shouldn't be the case, but if it were the case, Mooney shouldn't have just sat there for five years and done nothing. I think it's very rational to use your position of power as a last resort. And maybe we've never had a coach running the show at UR, but we've also never had a coach earning $13M. The university gave him power when it handed him that contract. If he chose never to exert it, he is almost as much to blame as the AD is.

 

[Ulla1]

Understood. And I agree that it shouldn't be the case, but if it were the case, Mooney shouldn't have just sat there for five years and done nothing. I think it's very rational to use your position of power as a last resort. And maybe we've never had a coach running the show at UR, but we've also never had a coach earning $13M. The university gave him power when it handed him that contract. If he chose never to exert it, he is almost as much to blame as the AD is.

EIght, in my humble opinion, one should not be ALWAYS bringing up money. The Ulla was brought up not to talk about such things. Not going to change you, Eight, just sharing my view with you. All the best.

 

[Eight Legger]

You know as well as I do that I'm not always bringing up money. But there's a pretty good reason to bring it up. You don't spend this kind of money for mediocrity. And you don't make this kind of money and then just sit idly by while your bosses screw you over, either.

 

[FrontRoyalSpider]

Eight, I generally consider you to be a rational guy. This is a fairly irrational argument. Have we ever had a head coach of any sport at UR that rules the roost?

The notion that our coaches should comport themselves in a way that puts them above school policies and procedures is not how UR rolls.

What you should be asking for is that the coach is in a position to not have to do that, either because the policies are flexible for him/her or if outside policy, there is a power structure that will go to bat. That hasn’t been the case for a long time.

Frank Jones was both head football coach and AD.

 

[spider23]

Agree Tbone, I am hopeful this is being addressed. I don't want to bring in poor character players, but we need to compete for top players

 

[plydogg]

Mooney is by far the highest-paid employee of the athletic department and one of the top four highest-paid people at the university.

Just out of sheer curiosity do you know who the other highest paid people at the University are?

 

[WebSpinner]

keep in mind that in some instances the young man is given certain criteria to meet and if they do not, they don't cut it. also that if they stay off social media singing to the heavens that they are going to this school or that, would help a lot, at least until a final and think our coaches should tell them that as well. again, we should not even know about most of these cases, they are private and should really be kept that way.

 

[fan2011]

Just out of sheer curiosity do you know who the other highest paid people at the University are?

All non profits have to file 990s which are publicly available and include the top paid employees.

Richmond's 990 from 2016 can be seen here: https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/organizations/540505965/201711329349304101/IRS990

Interestingly it does say Mooney received $2.2 million in reportable compensation in 2016. Maybe there was something to that french connection whatever someone was talking about a few weeks ago. I am not sure if this is some sort of accounting illusion, or if Mooney somehow convinced someone to give him a $1 million raise after the first four out performance in 2015? Maybe performance bonus money for 2015?

 

[plydogg]

All non profits have to file 990s which are publicly available and include the top paid employees.

Richmond's 990 from 2016 can be seen here: https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/organizations/540505965/201711329349304101/IRS990

Interestingly it does say Mooney received $2.2 million in reportable compensation in 2016. Maybe there was something to that french connection whatever someone was talking about a few weeks ago. I am not sure if this is some sort of accounting illusion, or if Mooney somehow convinced someone to give him a $1 million raise after the first four out performance in 2015?

Thank you

Ha it seems funny to see him listed as Christopher Mooney. Just have never though about him being Christopher before and not just Chris

 

[Eight Legger]

All non profits have to file 990s which are publicly available and include the top paid employees.

Richmond's 990 from 2016 can be seen here: https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/organizations/540505965/201711329349304101/IRS990

Interestingly it does say Mooney received $2.2 million in reportable compensation in 2016. Maybe there was something to that french connection whatever someone was talking about a few weeks ago. I am not sure if this is some sort of accounting illusion, or if Mooney somehow convinced someone to give him a $1 million raise after the first four out performance in 2015? Maybe performance bonus money for 2015?

Glad you looked up the most recent one. Sounds like the French thing is legit. My guess is that they front-loaded the remaining dollars to lessen the buyout.

 

[SFspidur]

$1.5 million of that was deferred compensation from previous years that he became entitled to upon vesting.

 

[MrTbone]

Understood. And I agree that it shouldn't be the case, but if it were the case, Mooney shouldn't have just sat there for five years and done nothing. I think it's very rational to use your position of power as a last resort. And maybe we've never had a coach running the show at UR, but we've also never had a coach earning $13M. The university gave him power when it handed him that contract. If he chose never to exert it, he is almost as much to blame as the AD is.

True that perhaps he could have leveraged better. He also may have simply figured that he had more to lose by rocking the boat.

I certainly would have considered going over the ADs head but I doubt Ed would have changed things, and Ronald is still new enough I’m not sure he would have battled academics/admissions over this.

I’m still encouraged by the changes Crutcher has made and that we may have an AD who is experienced enough to navigate the waters better.

 

[urfan1]

T well said, and I agree that Crutcher seems to be doing some good things. "Allowing" the operational change may have been his best move

 

[FrontRoyalSpider]

Frank Jones was both head football coach and AD.

He turned the football program from being the laughing stock of college football in the nation with the longest losing streak to being the only SoCon Champion to win t

Frank Jones was both head football coach and AD.

I guess you could claim that for a period of time Coach Jones ruled the roost, or perhaps Web.

 

[I-M-UR]

Eight, I believe our new AD has the stones to get the job done.

Ulla1 if there is no problem now; we've got great kids, clean program, etc., why does the AD need 'stones'

 

[Ulla1]

Ulla1 if there is no problem now; we've got great kids, clean program, etc., why does the AD need 'stones'

To deal with Admissions.

 

[spiderman]

The athletic department doesn't have nearly the sway at Richmond as most posters on this board seem to think. The vision of the board of trustees, the president, etc. for Richmond differs drastically from the average poster on this board.

and the President hires an AD to handle this stuff while he focuses on what he thinks are bigger issues. if these decisions are to be made by the President then why even have an AD.

 

[PASpider]

EIght, in my humble opinion, one should not be ALWAYS bringing up money. The Ulla was brought up not to talk about such things. Not going to change you, Eight, just sharing my view with you. All the best.

Don’t bring up money when it comes to sports? Look at any sport and they talk about people that are overpaid and underpaid, and the sports that generate revenue and those that do not. Maybe you don’t want to talk about money because it weakens your argument? It’s not like we are discussing our own net worths or prying into other people’s finances. Mooney’s contract is not hidden and should be discussed just as every other college that’s trying to be competitive discussed their coaches’ salaries.

 

[SpiderGuy]

You know as well as I do that I'm not always bringing up money. But there's a pretty good reason to bring it up. You don't spend this kind of money for mediocrity. And you don't make this kind of money and then just sit idly by while your bosses screw you over, either.

You are 100% correct, but this is exactly what has happened. I can't believe we've watched it play out this way.

 

[UR80sfan]

The facts are that Mooney has a contract that is legally binding. Talking about how much he gets paid is not going to accomplish anything. The other point I would make is that there are a lot of coaches that make double or more than what Mooney makes. I think the University should pay the basketball coach a lot of money regardless of who it is. If Mooney ever leaves we should be prepared to pay up to get a good coach.

 

[SpiderGuy]

The facts are that Mooney has a contract that is legally binding. Talking about how much he gets paid is not going to accomplish anything. The other point I would make is that there are a lot of coaches that make double or more than what Mooney makes. I think the University should pay the basketball coach a lot of money regardless of who it is. If Mooney ever leaves we should be prepared to pay up to get a good coach.

On balance, do those that make double or more produce at a higher level than CM? Do they win their conferences and / or go to The Dance more often than we do?

 

[spiderman]

I think the point is that the money shouldn't matter. nobody would be happy at 12-20 whether the check reads $1M or $100K.

the only thing I'm holding on to is that 12-20 is an outlier. if I didn't like the roster and if we didn't win 23 last year and if I didn't think we'll be much better next year I'd be on board with many of you. but I do like the roster. I do think we'll be much better. as long as things don't go south the next couple of weeks.

 

[32counter]

All non profits have to file 990s which are publicly available and include the top paid employees.

Richmond's 990 from 2016 can be seen here: https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/organizations/540505965/201711329349304101/IRS990

Interestingly it does say Mooney received $2.2 million in reportable compensation in 2016. Maybe there was something to that french connection whatever someone was talking about a few weeks ago. I am not sure if this is some sort of accounting illusion, or if Mooney somehow convinced someone to give him a $1 million raise after the first four out performance in 2015? Maybe performance bonus money for 2015?

The most important and most relevant names in the 990 are Spider Management personnel.These folks are critical to:

https://smc.richmond.edu/team/index.html

1.UR annual giving of $80,000,000 for scholarships
2.Provide for a $28,000,000 athletic budget for us to play in a D1 sandbox
3.Making Daily Investment decisions to enhance and grow the $2,400,000,000 endowment.

Mooney’s issues have deminimus value to anyone with power.
Any coach-win or lose-would be paid $1,000,000.That’s the market.

Keep pissing into the wind if it makes you feel good.Have a ball.

 

[Eight Legger]

Nobody is happy with 12-20, but many of us are significantly LESS happy because of the perception that we actually care enough to spend all this money on the program yet don't care enough to ensure that we spend it wisely.

If we were paying our coach $100,000 a year and hadn't upgraded our facilities, we would be upset but at least would understand our lot in life. It would be clear that we didn't desire to compete at the highest level.

But what the university has done the past 7 years is basically a giant tease. "Hey, look at how committed we are to our basketball program – we've spent almost $40 million on our coach and our arena! (but we have accomplished almost nothing of significance and don't seem to care)."

 

[Eight Legger]

The most important and most relevant names in the 990 are Spider Management personnel.These folks are critical to:

https://smc.richmond.edu/team/index.html

1.UR annual giving of $80,000,000 for scholarships
2.Provide for a $28,000,000 athletic budget for us to play in a D1 sandbox
3.Making Daily Investment decisions to enhance and grow the $2,400,000,000 endowment.

Mooney’s issues have deminimus value to anyone with power.
Any coach-win or lose-would be paid $1,000,000.That’s the market.

Keep pissing into the wind if it makes you feel good.Have a ball.

Plenty of coaches who win more than Mooney are paid significantly less than $1 million. Nathan Davis, John Becker, Earl Grant, the Loyola coach, etc. And maybe $1M a year is becoming more of a "standard" at our level now, but it sure wasn't 7 years ago when Mooney signed the contract.

 

[32counter]

I

Plenty of coaches who win more than Mooney are paid significantly less than $1 million. Nathan Davis, John Becker, Earl Grant, the Loyola coach, etc. And maybe $1M a year is becoming more of a "standard" at our level now, but it sure wasn't 7 years ago when Mooney signed the contract.

There are plenty of coaches that are paid much more than Mooney with less than stellar results.

No one on this Board has ANY power or a large enough checking account to alter anything.

Keep wasting time posting to eachother.Have fun.

 

[SpiderRick]

My question is, who exactly is "Admissions"? An associate Dean and a half dozen clerks? And why are the coaches, ADs, Trustee, and President all so reluctant to do battle with them?

It's like when some low level district judge in California decides that he doesn't agree with a law passed by Congress so he just invalidates it. And nobody can or will do anything about it.

 

[Eight Legger]

I


There are plenty of coaches that are paid much more than Mooney with less than stellar results.

No one on this Board has ANY power or a large enough checking account to alter anything.

Keep wasting time posting to eachother.Have fun.

So because none of us is Paul Queally, we can't have a discussion about the value or lackthereof we are experiencing with the program? Ok. Got it.

 

[32counter]

So because none of us is Paul Queally, we can't have a discussion about the value or lackthereof we are experiencing with the program? Ok. Got it.

Not just Queally.There are others.Now you got it.

 

[WebSpinner]

nobody seems to listen that it may not be the admissions dept, may be an admissions prob but probably not them, they are carrying out their business as outlined to them.

 

[ChoppinBroccoli]

The beatings will continue until morale improves.

 

[AnnapSpider]

All non profits have to file 990s which are publicly available and include the top paid employees.

Richmond's 990 from 2016 can be seen here: https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/organizations/540505965/201711329349304101/IRS990

Interestingly it does say Mooney received $2.2 million in reportable compensation in 2016. Maybe there was something to that french connection whatever someone was talking about a few weeks ago. I am not sure if this is some sort of accounting illusion, or if Mooney somehow convinced someone to give him a $1 million raise after the first four out performance in 2015? Maybe performance bonus money for 2015?

How come this doesn't give us the football coaches salary. And do assistant coaches salaries figure into that
$2 million + ?

 

[fan2011]

How come this doesn't give us the football coaches salary. And do assistant coaches salaries figure into that
$2 million + ?

I don't know anything about accounting.

 

[SFspidur]

How come this doesn't give us the football coaches salary. And do assistant coaches salaries figure into that
$2 million + ?

Only the top 5 highest compensated employees outside of trustees, officers, and key employees need to be reported. That’s Mooney and four Spider Management Company folks. Rocco didn’t make the $530k cutoff for top 5.

Assistant coaches would not count toward Mooney's number.

 

[nathanw19]

Not just Queally.There are others.Now you got it.

I am Queally.

 

[SFspidur]

To expand on why Mooney’s salary was so high in 2015-16, the University was setting aside $300-$400K per year in deferred compensation toward his retirement under a 457(f) plan. It looks like it was under the condition that he remain coach for at least four or five years following the new 2011 or 2012 contract. He fulfilled that as of 2016, so the whole $1.4 million in deferred funds from those years became taxable at once.

 

[fan2011]

To expand on why Mooney’s salary was so high in 2015-16, the University was setting aside $300-$400K per year in deferred compensation toward his retirement under a 457(f) plan. It looks like it was under the condition that he remain coach for at least four or five years following the new 2011 or 2012 contract. He fulfilled that as of 2016, so the whole $1.4 million in deferred funds from those years became taxable at once.

So was his actual salary in 2015/16 closer to $800k?