Change in basketball recruiting strategy?

[UR80sfan]

I have heard that admissions has been a much bigger issue to recruiting than most people realize. I also think our last athletic directors did not want to rock the boat on this issue. As I have mentioned before, I think the basketball team should be given significant leniency from the "normal athletic academic standards" for outstanding basketball recruits. Is the new AD a yes man or is he someone that is going to take our program to a higher level? Recent recruiting post on this forum have been very encouraging.

 

[Eight Legger]

Desperate times call for desperate measures. Let's hope there is real change coming.

 

[Ulla1]

Desperate times call for desperate measures. Let's hope there is real change coming.

Eight, I believe our new AD has the stones to get the job done.

 

[LongTimeLurkerFirstTimePoster]

I have heard that admissions has been a much bigger issue to recruiting than most people realize. I also think our last 2 athletic directors did not want to rock the boat on this issue. As I have mentioned before, I think the basketball team should be given significant leniency from the "normal athletic academic standards" for outstanding basketball recruits. Is the new AD a yes man or is he someone that is going to take our program to a higher level? Recent recruiting post on this forum have been very encouraging.

I also think our last 2 athletic directors did not want to rock the boat on this issue.

Please delete 2 and have it read "last athletic director"

 

[ChoppinBroccoli]

Hmm. What do your inside sources tell you?

We've been led to believe that admissions has been an issue.

 

[spider23]

Eight, I believe our new AD has the stones to get the job done.

What is the job? I think Hardt is business as usual.

 

[UR80sfan]

Here is a quote from a U of R trustee:

"Posters are horribly misinformed about what really is happening. Keith Gill did not advocate for Chris’s recruits and too many got turned down in the admissions process. John Hardt is completely different and understands what it takes to produce a successful basketball program."

 

[spiderstudent17]

Here is a quote from a U of R trustee:

"Posters are horribly misinformed about what really is happening. Keith Gill did not advocate for Chris’s recruits and too many got turned down in the admissions process. John Hardt is completely different and understands what it takes to produce a successful basketball program."

Another quote by John Hardt in the collegian was "In college basketball, if you are standing still then you are falling behind"

Hardt gets it and I am very happy that we have an AD who gets it. A lot of change is happening for our basketball program to move it in the right direction. It'll take some time, but we'll get to where we want to be

 

[Eight Legger]

Here is a quote from a U of R trustee:

"Posters are horribly misinformed about what really is happening. Keith Gill did not advocate for Chris’s recruits and too many got turned down in the admissions process. John Hardt is completely different and understands what it takes to produce a successful basketball program."

Let's think about this for a minute. Mooney is by far the highest-paid employee of the athletic department and one of the top four highest-paid people at the university. His contract is guaranteed, by all accounts. He is the immovable force. Are you suggesting that he was content to sit idly by for five years while Gill rejected or failed to advocate for the players he wanted? Why on earth would he do that?

At any time he could have gone public or gone to a higher power than Gill to complain about what was happening. What was the school going to do, fire him and eat $8 million or whatever it would have been at whatever time he did this? Hell no.

If this is in fact the case, then by sitting by and allowing this to happen repeatedly, Mooney was complicit in it by the end, IMO.

 

[Ulla1]

Let's think about this for a minute. Mooney is by far the highest-paid employee of the athletic department and one of the top four highest-paid people at the university. His contract is guaranteed, by all accounts. He is the immovable force. Are you suggesting that he was content to sit idly by for five years while Gill rejected or failed to advocate for the players he wanted? Why on earth would he do that?

At any time he could have gone public or gone to a higher power than Gill to complain about what was happening. What was the school going to do, fire him and eat $8 million or whatever it would have been at whatever time he did this? Hell no.

If this is in fact the case, then by sitting by and allowing this to happen repeatedly, Mooney was complicit in it by the end, IMO.

Eight, just my personal opinion, but one does not air personal grievances in public. Again just my personal opinion.

 

[Eight Legger]

Even if/when it affects your ability to do a very public and well-compensated job and therefore your reputation among thousands of people and prospective future employers??

 

[Ulla1]

Even if/when it affects your ability to do a very public and well-compensated job and therefore your reputation among thousands of people and prospective future employers??

Yep, to do so would in fact adversely affect any future employment.

 

[spider23]

Kind of like it affected Rocco's ability to get a job?

EL, I made the same argument, no way Mooney should have been sitting around while getting his recruits shot down. No way you let yourself get walked all over like that.

 

[ChoppinBroccoli]

I agree with Ulla that airing dirty laundry in public is unseemly.

But if your boss is hindering your ability to do your job, eventually you need to talk to your boss's boss.

 

[Spiders10]

Ok, then somebody needs to go back to that Trustee and tell him/her that these "horribly misinformed posters" are shelling out their hard earned money on tickets and donations every year to support a program and AD that clearly has no interest in being open with their fanbase.

If they would talk to the fanbase, instead of constantly trying to deceive it, or leaving everyone wondering what the hell is going on then it would make their lives so much easier.

 

[fan2011]

Kind of like it affected Rocco's ability to get a job?

EL, I made the same argument, no way Mooney should have been sitting around while getting his recruits shot down. No way you let yourself get walked all over like that.

Coaches often have buyout clauses in their contracts. If they quit for whatever reason they owe the university millions. This is a tactic to prevent coaches from being poached by other schools, the other school will have to pay the buyout. The contracts college basketball coaches sign are nothing like normal employment contracts, and quitting without the consent of the current employer or without a new, rich employer willing to pay the buyout is not really possible.

 

[UR80sfan]

It is very interesting how the extremely positive quote posted above from a trustee about the future of our basketball program can be turned into a negative.

I agree with Spider10 that there should be better communication with the fan base. When there is a vacuum of information it can create a lot of incorrect speculation.

 

[spider23]

Ok, then somebody needs to go back to that smartass Trustee and tell him/her that these "horribly misinformed posters" are shelling out their hard earned money on tickets and donations every year to support a program and AD that clearly has no interest in being open with their fanbase.

If they would talk to the fanbase, instead of constantly trying to deceive it, or leaving everyone wondering what the hell is going on then it would make their lives so much easier.

10, I feel like there is a certain segment of posters on this board saying "you are poor, misinformed, and do not donate enough to really understand what is going on" and "no matter what Mooney does not accomplish it is not his fault". How they link you and EL and other posters to a donation level is very disturbing to say the least. I think a lot of us are just going off actual results that wee see and logic. But that is wrong, because we are not in the inner circle. The circle of trust.

 

[Eight Legger]

I agree with Ulla that airing dirty laundry in public is unseemly.

But if your boss is hindering your ability to do your job, eventually you need to talk to your boss's boss.

Yeah, ulla glossed over this part of my original response. The idea that Mooney would do NOTHING while Gill just rejected one recruit after another for 5 years is mind-boggingly absurd to me.

 

[urfan1]

My understanding is our last president refused to go to admissions to argue for a player and frowned upon Coaches that did, and our current president will do little of it. So who does CM turn to? As I understand that was part of the complaint by DR. Like his actions or not he probably did us a big favor the way he threw gas on the fire before he left.

 

[Eight Legger]

If it is impacting your ability to do your job, you take the discussion literally to anyone and everyone who will listen. Start with the AD, move up to the president, the Board of Trustees, the general public, big donors, on and on. You do whatever you possibly can to be heard.

 

[ur2K]

Or sit around for a bunch of years and collect a paycheck hoping it would get better?

 

[Spiders10]

Sometimes I wonder why I keep putting myself through the mental anguish that I do over this mismanaged program. For what?

It's nothing but a blame game. It's Mooney's fault. Well, we need more facilities. No, it's Gill's fault. Wait, it's Ayers fault. Actually, It's admission's fault. F this.

For me personally, problem is I keep talking/ranting about it over and over. So no more.

 

[spiderman]

Admissions says no to a recruit.
a coach goes to his AD to ask for a little rope. that's what he's supposed to do. AD can then ask Admissions, but if he doesn't agree he won't.

you guys want the coach to go over the AD's head? is that how it works in your business? yeah, boss. I don't agree with you. I'm going to ask the President.

you know how that goes?
why are you here? this is something you ask your boss, the AD. oh, you did and he said no? so why are you here?

 

[Eight Legger]

The point is that Mooney is the most powerful person in the athletic department. Surely he realized that. What were they going to do, fire him and pay him the rest of his guaranteed money just like that to make him go away? Of course not. He had all the power.

And you know what? If at the end of the day the powers that be refused to allow him to do his job the way he wanted to, he was always free to walk away from the job and the money and get another job somewhere else where he would have that flexibility.

 

[ThePhysician]

Here is a quote from a U of R trustee:

"Posters are horribly misinformed about what really is happening. Keith Gill did not advocate for Chris’s recruits and too many got turned down in the admissions process. John Hardt is completely different and understands what it takes to produce a successful basketball program."

We all knew Gill was terrible , the trustee is misinformed. We also know Hardt is different.

 

[ThePhysician]

Admissions says no to a recruit.
a coach goes to his AD to ask for a little rope. that's what he's supposed to do. AD can then ask Admissions, but if he doesn't agree he won't.

you guys want the coach to go over the AD's head? is that how it works in your business? yeah, boss. I don't agree with you. I'm going to ask the President.

you know how that goes?
why are you here? this is something you ask your boss, the AD. oh, you did and he said no? so why are you here?

If the AD was guilty of malpractice, as Gill was, yes you go over his head with your concerns.

 

[ThePhysician]

If it is impacting your ability to do your job, you take the discussion literally to anyone and everyone who will listen. Start with the AD, move up to the president, the Board of Trustees, the general public, big donors, on and on. You do whatever you possibly can to be heard.

Exactly.

 

[ur2K]

So we’re now saying this is why we recruited DII talent for multiple years and then finally had a good recruiting class (Buck, Nick, Grant) but yet had the same AD when that class was signed?

 

[WebSpinner]

over the decades we have been told that admissions is the devil but that is not the entire story. first of all, we do allow for athletes to be matriculated who are pretty far from the norm admitted but we do have a line which if crossed, has to be pretty special. to me it is a coach problem, you know the guidelines and if you get close to them, you know you may lose that recruit so maybe stay away unless a star. also, the coach is not going to be able to recruit a lot of players who are marginal, a couple maybe but not a starting five. does anyone really want academic probs, graduation rate probs, etc? maybe some of us do but i don't. feel we can compete and have done so without admitting anyone just because they play ball. the football coaches seem to know how to recruit and we are competitive nationally with what restrictions are placed upon them. sure we have lost some prospects, which we should have never even known about but few over the years. in adition, does anyone on here feel that admissions is in their own little world with all the power? not, they have guidelines set from above not by them and the faculty plays a part in all of this as well. not an admissions dept prob but an overall school problem if it is a problem at all.

 

[urfan1]

a coach cannot know where a marginal recruit will fall until the end of the recruiting process

 

[spider23]

That is a good point. It would seem pretty clear that admissions zapped us with both Godwin and Bernard. Though ODU and Xavier took them. This is the part I really don't understand. It seems pretty established that bball players (with exceptions obviously) are well below the admissions standard for a normal student. So these guys apparently fell below some other standard. That seems to have been the problem. Now again there will be those saying there has to be a floor set. I say that floor is behavioral, and not grade/test score based. I have not heard of Malcolm Bernard being arrested, or even accused of being a bad guy. Godwin seemed to be thrilled with Richmond. I have not heard of him flunking out of ODU. If these are the guys Mooney wants, we need to let them in. Still think it is time for a coaching change. And I still think Mooney should have fought harder for change prior to now and a 20 loss season. I think EL is correct in that he should have been going through any channels necessary if he was at such a recruiting disadvantage. He was not the "boss", but he is the highest paid and highest profile member of athletics at Richmond.

 

[ChoppinBroccoli]

I thought Bernard had better grades than Roydell Brown (and a degree). Perhaps the tide is turning some.

 

[urmite]

I thought Bernard had better grades than Roydell Brown (and a degree). Perhaps the tide is turning some.

Perhaps, but we may need to see someone complete the process to be sure...

 

[fan2011]

That is a good point. It would seem pretty clear that admissions zapped us with both Godwin and Bernard. Though ODU and Xavier took them. This is the part I really don't understand. It seems pretty established that bball players (with exceptions obviously) are well below the admissions standard for a normal student. So these guys apparently fell below some other standard. That seems to have been the problem. Now again there will be those saying there has to be a floor set. I say that floor is behavioral, and not grade/test score based. I have not heard of Malcolm Bernard being arrested, or even accused of being a bad guy. Godwin seemed to be thrilled with Richmond. I have not heard of him flunking out of ODU. If these are the guys Mooney wants, we need to let them in. Still think it is time for a coaching change. And I still think Mooney should have fought harder for change prior to now and a 20 loss season. I think EL is correct in that he should have been going through any channels necessary if he was at such a recruiting disadvantage. He was not the "boss", but he is the highest paid and highest profile member of athletics at Richmond.

Right now, the admissions standards for regular students at Richmond exclude ~85% of the general population. The minimum NCAA standards exclude at most 20% of the general population. There are many lines that can be drawn between those two standards for athletes at Richmond. Assuming the distribution of athlete's academic ability is the same as the general population, if athletes at Richmond had to meet the standards of a general student we would only have a potential player pool about 20% the size of other schools. If the standards are lowered to half way between general admission and NCAA minimum our potential player pool would still only be ~60% of the size of other schools potential player pools. There are many possible places the admissions office could draw the line that are significantly below general admissions standards but also significantly reduce the size of the potential player pool. We don't know where the line is drawn, but we know it is above the NCAA minimum and we have lost good players because of it. Hopefully Hardt will get the coaches a little more leeway and allow us to fish in a bigger pool.

 

[SpiderFan]

If admissions is such a HUGE problem then change the staff there, can't be that big of a deal to get new admissions staff in there with a different directive. But if their directive is right from the president then the problem is the president. Admissions doesn't just operate on their own without any direction.

 

[Ulla1]

Reckon that our new AD is a Vice President might give him a bit more clout with Admssions? Just sayin'

 

[fan2011]

If admissions is such a HUGE problem then change the staff there, can't be that big of a deal to get new admissions staff in there with a different directive. But if their directive is right from the president then the problem is the president. Admissions doesn't just operate on their own without any direction.

The athletic department doesn't have nearly the sway at Richmond as most posters on this board seem to think. The vision of the board of trustees, the president, etc. for Richmond differs drastically from the average poster on this board.

 

[MrTbone]

Here is a quote from a U of R trustee:

"Posters are horribly misinformed about what really is happening. Keith Gill did not advocate for Chris’s recruits and too many got turned down in the admissions process..."

I’m not horribly misinformed, I’ve known that for several years. It’s one of several problems that seem to exist, the question is if it’s the key problem.

 

[MrTbone]

If it is impacting your ability to do your job, you take the discussion literally to anyone and everyone who will listen. Start with the AD, move up to the president, the Board of Trustees, the general public, big donors, on and on. You do whatever you possibly can to be heard.

I think it’s reasonable to believe this has been a problem for a long time. CM bears some responsibility for where things got to, but we have clear evidence (Malcolm Bernard) that admissions problems existed.

Let’s be glad that the issue has been acknowledged and is seemingly being corrected.