Can We Stop with the Mid-Major Designation?

[nathanw19]

The A-10 is not considered a mid major conference. When the top mid-major programs are listed, they do not count the A-10. Richmond is not a mid major program.

I think we, as a fan base, have to stop calling ourselves one. We’re not. The A-10 may be struggling at the bottom of the power conferences for basketball, but it is perennially a 3 bid or more league. Mid majors are 1 bid, maybe 2 in a good year, leagues.

It’s be great if we can help stop this narrative of being considered/ok with being called a mid-major program.

 

[spider23]

Chris Mack said Xavier is not mid major. then He left the A10. Hardt and Queally need to start acting like we are not low major.

 

[plydogg]

This is an interesting take Nathan and I've never thought about it like that. I do agree that we should start looking at our conference as the bottom of the major conferences instead especially with how many bids the A10 has received.

But with that being said, the definition of mid-major is to define a team that isn't in the Power 5 conference. The rest are low majors. In my opinion a mid-major is a conference that gets in 2-3 teams per year and you get above that by being able to get in the 4-8 teams in consistently.

We were tied for 6th most teams in the tournament this year which is pretty huge considering the down year the A10 had. I am not at all trying to dispel your point I just wanted to get that statement out of the way to prove to you why I think you're right. In the 2015, 2016, 2017, and 2018 tournaments the A10 has gotten 3 teams in. That is pretty damn consistent and proves that we can be considered either the highest mid-major or the lowest Power conference. In 2014 the A10 got SIX teams in the tournament. Almost all of these years we have had as many teams in as the bottom power 5 team. The consistency is what I think is key though.

I have to admit that when I started thinking about this I was skeptical of your view, but the last time the A10 had less than three teams in the tournament was 2007 when Florida beat Ohio State!

 

[spider23]

We have had the "mid major" conference debate for years. We need to stop looking at our own team as unable to compete for the top of our conference. That is much more important than the mid major debate.

 

[nathanw19]

I don’t consider it a debate. The A-10 is not a mid Major conference, and therefore we aren’t a mid major program.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mid-major

http://www.collegeinsider.com/mens-mid-major-top-25.php

I agree though that we need to stop looking at our team as not being able to compete for top in our conference. I see both issues as symptoms of the same problem; namely a lack of ambition/expectation of winning.

I’d like to start a “why not us” campaign. Why can’t we be a perennial top A-10 team? Why can’t we be a perennial NCAA team? Why can’t we grow in the fashion of Gonzaga and Wichita State over the past 10-20 years?

We have great history in our program as the original giant killers. Only team to win as a 15,14,13,and 12 seed. I love that, I embrace it. But I want to develop that pride and grow it into expectations. And to me, one of the first things that needs to go is the Mid-Major designation we give ourselves.

 

[spider23]

I like your thinking Nathan. I agree with both sentiments, A10 is a "major" league, and we should be able to compete year in and year out at the top of the league. I see no reason that we cannot with the full support of the administration, and strong coaching added to our top notch facilities, and future training facility. We should be able to recruit like VCU or URI, I know we have different academic profiles, but DAMNIT, find your niche. Come on. Too many followers of our program fall into the lethargy of our current leadership. Hopefully Hardt is not part of this Mooney/Queally team.

 

[Ferrum Spider]

We? Try the media talking heads that bloviate the same talking points throughout every college basketball season.

 

[plydogg]

I've always considered us a mid-major but I think we have different definitions of the word. Just after reading what you've said though I think there needs to be a new specification. We obviously aren't a power 5 conference team because those power conferences already exist but I think maybe there should be some type of term between mid-major and power conference maybe?

I'm glad you brought this up because as my long post shows you've changed how I originally felt about it to how I feel now after researching a bit more. Thank you Nathan for a quality post!

 

[urfan1]

I would love for us to be in a P6 conference, because I believe they are the only true National conferences. For it to happen a number of things would have to change IMHO. No, we don't have to open the doors and let in every thug that can play ball, and we can do it by letting in kids that can graduate on time. But it will take an alignment of the University community thinking, and it will not occur overnight, it is a process. Gonzaga, Butler, Xavier, etc did not become national names in one season.

 

[32counter]

Yes,of course.

 

[AnnapSpider]

I've always accepted the mid-major tag because of our size as a university.
But in the past decade I realize that the Gonzaga's and Villanova's of the
basketball world are really no different from us. We just have to quit playing to
that roll.
I'm not sure the administration, the coaches, and the fans are forward thinking
enough. Bitch about VCU all you want, but their growth (this year aside) has
created competition that we need and want to reach.

 

[I-M-UR]

we are certainly a tweener. Some of the midmajor polls include the A10 others don't. Losing Butler and Xavier to the Big East indicates we are not P5+1 (big east and maybe AAC) Remember we would have jumped at the chance to go to the Big East. Multiple bids (as many as the PAC12 this year) certainly indicates we are at the 'power' level. I still think we...UR and the A10 better step up it's effort or we will decline.

 

[urmite]

Not sure what the labels should be but there seem to be 3 levels.

Conferences that have 0 to 1 at large candidates and the 1 often wins the conference Tourney.

Conferences that have 2 to 4 at large candidates.

And Conferences that have much larger conference TV Revenue.

 

[urfan1]

Question what is the accepted designation for the lower level D-1 teams/leagues? (MEAC, Big South, etc)

 

[spider fan]

Don't care what we are called - only want to hear our name called on Selection Sunday.

 

[UR80sfan]

There is a very high correlation between the quality of the conference and the quality of recruits. The A10 gets very few top 100 recruits. Our Athletic Director can have a major positive impact on our basketball program by either getting us in a better conference or improving the A10.

 

[WebSpinner]

if you are out of sight, nationally, we are, then you are out of mind. what fan said above is correct, the powers that be need to have a clear understanding of what we want to be, determine what we need to do, change, to get there and go for it or not. just tell us what it is and i will accept it, i think......

 

[ur2K]

Seems like these days its:

Major - P5 and Big East
Mid-Major - us
Low-Major - one bid leagues

 

[Ulla1]

Seems like these days its:

Major - P5 and Big East
Mid-Major - us
Low-Major - one bid leagues

Think you nailed it, 2K.

 

[97spiderfan]

We can stop calling ourselves a mid-major when we stop behaving like one.

 

[I-M-UR]

over the years the MC and WCC and recently the American Conference fall in line with us, I'd argue a little below but they aren't far back. I still think there is a chance basketball will go the same way as football and I don't want UR, or the A10 to be left behind.
Thank goodness Cinderella teams help the tournament ratings

 

[spider fan]

Yes that is it - as long as Division 1 basketball is not divided into divisions nomenclature does not matter.

 

[Ulla1]

We can stop calling ourselves a mid-major when we stop behaving like one.

Nope, 97. We can stop calling ourselved a mid-major when we become a member of a major conference.

 

[32counter]

How about Upper Most Middle Major?Like the sound of that.

 

[SpiderDogg]

Its great that we got as many bids as the PAC 12 this year but they (and the other Power 5 conferences) are still way ahead of the A-10. No team from the A-10 has a chance win the national championship next year (or any year) or has a chance to land top 10 recruits. Even on a down year, the PAC 12 has the best player and a team from that league could make a run at the national championship next year. I still consider us a mid major until we move conferences (not that we deserve to obviously right now).

 

[97spiderfan]

Nope, 97. We can stop calling ourselved a mid-major when we become a member of a major conference.

I would love to be a member of a major conference but that isn't happening. There was a time when I thought the Big East was within reach, but that is a pipe dream.

We can still have be a very good mid major, mid high major, whatever, but we HAVE to have a much bigger university wide commitment to winning than we do now.

 

[ChoppinBroccoli]

There is a very high correlation between the quality of the conference and the quality of recruits. The A10 gets very few top 100 recruits. Our Athletic Director can have a major positive impact on our basketball program by either getting us in a better conference or improving the A10.

Don't you think we should be able to contend for A10 titles before we think about joining a better conference?

 

[MolivaManiac]

Don't you think we should be able to contend for A10 titles before we think about joining a better conference?

Agreed. The biggest thing we can do to "improve the A10" is make a true committment to improving ourselves. The graph with the A10 unit money in the other thread speaks for itself.

 

[nathanw19]

I contend that much of this discussion is exactly my point. Too many of us think of our program as a mid-major. And I’m also of the belief that the there is a contingent that parlays that into being an excuse that we “can’t recruit better players” or “why we can’t consistently make the tourney.”

There are teams in the a-10 that recruit better players (recruiting sites wise) than we do, and the a-10 has averaged more than 3 bids per year for over 10 years. Our conference isn’t holding us back. Also, conferences don’t magically make you a good program (what’s up Boston College!).

But to my original point, the A-10 isn’t a mid-major conference. We’re probably the 8th best conference in the country, some years we are better, though I can’t think of a year we’ve been worse. The A-10 puts too many teams in the tourney every year for mid major status.

 

[Ulla1]

I contend that much of this discussion is exactly my point. Too many of us think of our program as a mid-major. And I’m also of the belief that the there is a contingent that parlays that into being an excuse that we “can’t recruit better players” or “why we can’t consistently make the tourney.”

There are teams in the a-10 that recruit better players (recruiting sites wise) than we do, and the a-10 has averaged more than 3 bids per year for over 10 years. Our conference isn’t holding us back. Also, conferences don’t magically make you a good program (what’s up Boston College!).

But to my original point, the A-10 isn’t a mid-major conference. We’re probably the 8th best conference in the country, some years we are better, though I can’t think of a year we’ve been worse. The A-10 puts too many teams in the tourney every year for mid major status.

Sorry, but the A10 is a mid major. If UR goes on a run the next few years, maybe UR gets into the Big East. Otherwise UR and other A10 members remain mid majors.

 

[nathanw19]

Sorry, but the A10 is a mid major. If UR goes on a run the next few years, maybe UR gets into the Big East. Otherwise UR and other A10 members remain mid majors.

By what measure or standard; other than the A10 is not the ACC, SEC, Big Ten, Big 12, PAC 12, Big East, or American; are you deeming us a mid major?

Coaching salary?
The A10 pays its coaches as good as many coaches in those conferences (and better than any other conference), and yes, Mooney is a prime example.

NCAA Bids?
Tournament bids are on par with multiple of those conferences every year (See big ten and pac 12 this year).

Facilities?
Facilities are up and down, but mostly on par with the median of those conferences (Yes, no one is sniffing Duke, Kentucky, MSU). But also, look at Richmond committing $15 mil to a basketball specific facility, vcu already has one, hell Dayton hosts the NCAA tournament every year.

Recruiting?
And for recruiting, aren’t we all excited that we’re hopefully taking one of Pitt’s recruits, and we’re not close to the top in recruiting (at least by recruiting sites standard) in our conference. Almost every other team in the A10 is regularly beating out teams from these other conferences for players.

To me, it’s primarily a football bias (which makes the athletic departments in big football conferences have a ton of money) and then the Big East is, well, the Big East. So maybe it’s a historical bias as well? I didn’t grow up thinking of the A10 as a power conference in basketball, but the evidence has changed my opinion. And then finally it is a belief in ability to compete/expectation to exceed, which to me, is the only portion we as Richmond (and maybe as a conference) are lacking, which leads me back to my original post of wouldn’t it be great if we dropped this notion of being a mid major.

 

[localspider]

Sorry, but the A10 is a mid major. If UR goes on a run the next few years, maybe UR gets into the Big East. Otherwise UR and other A10 members remain mid majors.

Agreed, losing Xavier, Temple, and Butler relegated the remainder to mid major status. URI may be a flash in the pan, UD and VCU have also lost a lot of steam. We are solidly suck in the middle of a mid major conference. Unless a major turnaround occurs all the lipstick in the world is not going to change this pig.

 

[fan2011]

We are the 7th or 8th best conference out of 32 depending on the year. Certainly nothing middle about that. However, the mid major as a category has to do with the amount of money that athletic departments have, and schools in the A10 don't have nearly as much as the big football conference schools do.

 

[SFspidur]

We are the 7th or 8th best conference out of 32 depending on the year.

We were 11th this year.

 

[fan2011]

We were 11th this year.

According to who? Not the selection committee, which is all that matters. We have been top 8 in bids received for over a decade. This year we were tied for 6th.

 

[Ulla1]

The A10 sucks. Ok, I said it. Good night.

 

[ChoppinBroccoli]

Quick, name the last A10 team to make the Final Four.

It's just a label. Don't overthink it.

 

[CAAguy]

Since VCU joined the A-10................

2013-2018 (six yrs) - NCAA bids (23) - nearly 4 per season
VCU = 5
Dayton = 4
St Louis = 2
Rhody = 2
St Joes = 2
Davidson = 2
LaSalle = 1
Mass = 1
Butler = 1
Temple = 1
GW = 1
Bonny = 1

Ten current A-10 teams have danced since UR last danced in 2011. The only teams that haven't are Fordham, Duquesne, and GMU (relative newcomer).

A-10 bids
2013 - 5
2014 - 6
2015 - 3
2016 - 3
2017 - 3
2018 - 3

 

[Ulla1]

Quick, name the last A10 team to make the Final Four.

It's just a label. Don't overthink it.

UMass?

 

[MolivaManiac]

Since VCU joined the A-10................

2013-2018 (six yrs) - NCAA bids (23) - nearly 4 per season
VCU = 5
Dayton = 4
St Louis = 2
Rhody = 2
St Joes = 2
Davidson = 2
LaSalle = 1
Mass = 1
Butler = 1
Temple = 1
GW = 1
Bonny = 1

Ten current A-10 teams have danced since UR last danced in 2011. The only teams that haven't are Fordham, Duquesne, and GMU (relative newcomer).

A-10 bids
2013 - 5
2014 - 6
2015 - 3
2016 - 3
2017 - 3
2018 - 3

This has been regurgitated over and over on this board but I just can't understand how any self-respecting supporter of this program doesn't look at this and recognize that we need a change.