Beginning of the End

[spider23]

Looking back, I really think this was the end of Mooney

https://rvanews.com/sports/atlantic...emotional-meltdown-in-the-final-seconds/86827

One of the worst meltdowns by a supposedly level headed coach. He seemed to be neutered after this and never regained his fastball so to speak.

 

[MrTbone]

I was at that game and still don’t fault CM for this one. We got jobbed in one of the worst officiating displays I can recall.

It was definitely surreal.

 

[spider23]

Still, beginning of the end.

 

[SpideRVA]

@spider23 I have to give you credit...you make a lot of meaningful contributions to this board and I enjoy hearing your perspectives.

This, however, is one of your worst. If you were at this game, you would know that his response was warranted.

I'll chalk this up to being bored on a Thursday looking for something to post about.

 

[spider23]

OK, RVA, you may have me there. But you have to admit, there was quite a few threads of conversation early on on this board about how Mooney was a hot head, and the old timers were pissed off about him dropping F bombs and losing it from time to time. Then, something changed and he just became a lifeless, stale coach that wanted to succeed (it would be nice ) but no longer HAD to succeed. Still think after this event and season he got neutered by the admin in some regard and has not had the same fire since.

 

[fan2011]

I was at that game and still don’t fault CM for this one. We got jobbed in one of the worst officiating displays I can recall.

It was definitely surreal.

If this is the Charlotte game (haven't looked at the link), it was talked about nationally for days after it happened because the officiating was so horrible at the ned of the game.

 

[KWeaver]

That stuff can psychologically mess with you, though. Do you think Mooney wanted to be seen as a hothead nationally? Makes me wonder. Not the look I am going for, even if totally warranted. He has kids and all that.

 

[spiderman]

agreed, KW. I'd imagine reflecting on that game all off season was tough. it wasn't CM's proudest moment and he likely decided that would never happen again. bad call, but the reaction eliminated any chance we had.

some of you seem to love the Earl Weaver types but losing your head doesn't make you a great coach. I disagree that CM is lifeless. he's certainly more under control than before. but kicking dirt doesn't explain why he won more earlier. he had more special players than he's had since then ... until now in my opinion. we've got 3 really special players now. hopefully we have enough supporting talent. there are question marks, but we might.

 

[UR Fan 2]

Mooney's meltdown was warranted. I almost through my tv through the window when I saw the replay.

 

[Not-A-Homer]

@spider23 I have to give you credit...you make a lot of meaningful contributions to this board and I enjoy hearing your perspectives.

This, however, is one of your worst. If you were at this game, you would know that his response was warranted.

I'll chalk this up to being bored on a Thursday looking for something to post about.

The job of the coach is to put his team in a position where they have a chance to win. If anyone thinks that is what Mooney's performance entailed on this particular day - then they embody the definition of a HOMER.

As I have stated before, being a homer is not the worst thing in the world. Unbridled emotion and bias that makes one willfully blind to reality doesn't make one a bad person. The truth is that homers won't (or can't) allow themselves to see what a less prejudiced person will see. Homer fans can be an advantage for a team, so, reasonable people understand that it is what it is.

On the day in question, Mooney's in game management (especially in the win/lose portions of the game) was highly questionable. Certainly, one can't blame the coach for Derrick Williams' foul, BUT, his reaction and behavior afterwards eliminated any chance that the team had to win. If one blames that loss on the officials .... well it is what it is.

 

[97spiderfan]

I was proud of Mooney that day. We got robbed by the officials and Mooney responded accordingly. I was glad he got tossed. When he got tossed, the loss was already assured by the officials.

But I agree with 23, that was the beginning of the end, because the next day Mooney came out, tail between his legs and apologized. For what? Having the same stolen from him by terrible officiating. And since that day, Mooney's demeanor has been different. The fire that he exhibited the first five years has been replaced by insecurity about many things, most notable is an insecurity about his own abilities to lead this program. He has never gotten this back. The day didn't entirely change his mojo, but it was significant event, and set the course for Mooney leadership being weakened. .

 

[MrTbone]

If this is the Charlotte game (haven't looked at the link), it was talked about nationally for days after it happened because the officiating was so horrible at the ned of the game.

yes, the Charlotte game. Brutal officiating.

 

[I-M-UR]

You could say it was Ododa transferring was the beginning of the end or any other incidents that have happened. My question is no matter what was the beginning of the end..... when is the end?

 

[spider fan]

It should have been the end of the official's officiating career................I mean how bad do you have to be to no longer be eligible to officiate?

 

[spiderman]

I actually agree with the "T" on Williams. Can't push a guy on a dead ball after a made 1st free throw on a 1 and 1. Crazy that Williams put the official on the spot to have to make that call.
The 3 foul shots on the heave later pushed Mooney over the edge. That was borderline and arguable, but not blatantly the wrong call either. The guy had left his feet and threw up the heave when he was fouled. We couldn't foul early enough. Just a disastrous ending.

 

[ur2K]

Looking at that original article, some things never change:

- Minus 22 in rebounding (gave up 19 offensive)
- The Spiders were outscored in the paint 44-16
- "Then, right out of the locker room, the Spiders went cold and saw their eight-point lead dwindle to a two-point deficit."

We've been watching the same movie for 13 years and are expecting to have a different ending.

 

[ChoppinBroccoli]

I hadn't watched that in a while; I had forgotten that the announcers were completely oblivious to the fact that the "shooter" (cough, cough) was given three shots, and that is what sent Mooney over the edge.

 

[Not-A-Homer]

I actually agree with the "T" on Williams. Can't push a guy on a dead ball after a made 1st free throw on a 1 and 1. Crazy that Williams put the official on the spot to have to make that call.
The 3 foul shots on the heave later pushed Mooney over the edge. That was borderline and arguable, but not blatantly the wrong call either. The guy had left his feet and threw up the heave when he was fouled. We couldn't foul early enough. Just a disastrous ending.

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Game management at its worst. This one was on Mooney (and Derrick Williams for starting it all), yet some still blame the officials for the loss. If you still have doubts, the commentary from the announcers should clear it up for you.

 

[spiderman]

yeah, I hate the initial foul by Ced. not when you don't have fouls to give, and not when you're up 3. guard the line and let it play out. worst case is tie, but with so little time left that's probably a 20% chance.

 

[VT4700]

Ced fouled too early, but it still should not have mattered. We were still in great shape. Ref could have easily called double fouls on the Charlotte guy for elbowing DWill and then on DWill for the push, but DWill still needs to keep his composure there. UNCC obviously coached that and tried to bait DWill there, and man did the UNCC guy ever pull a nice acting job falling to the floor. No way should a tech be called there if the UNCC gets nothing called on him for driling DWill with his elbow.

The foul at halfcourt should never be called a 3 shot foul. Never. UNCC was up 1. Why does the ref think he would try a 3 from halfcourt up 1 with 3 seconds left? Out of 200 refs, he was probably the only one that would give the guy 3 shots on that. Every foul should be 3 shots if you are allowed to just throw the ball up from anywhere after contact. Just awful, awful officiating.

So, we messed up 3 times with Ced fouling too early, DWill losing his composure and then Mooney, though very understandable, losing his composure. But, the refs poor judgement trumps all of our mess ups. When I think of this game, I think of how no other refs would have made those calls.

 

[MrTbone]

I actually agree with the "T" on Williams. Can't push a guy on a dead ball after a made 1st free throw on a 1 and 1. Crazy that Williams put the official on the spot to have to make that call.
The 3 foul shots on the heave later pushed Mooney over the edge. That was borderline and arguable, but not blatantly the wrong call either. The guy had left his feet and threw up the heave when he was fouled. We couldn't foul early enough. Just a disastrous ending.

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The Charlotte player had wrapped his arm around DWills neck. Of course he pushed him off of him. It should have been a no call, you can’t ignore the initial act and then punish the second.

 

[MrTbone]

yeah, I hate the initial foul by Ced. not when you don't have fouls to give, and not when you're up 3. guard the line and let it play out. worst case is tie, but with so little time left that's probably a 20% chance.

The vast majority of coaches call for the foul when up by three these days, i think it’s only really questionable when you get this kid of result.

 

[VT4700]

The vast majority of coaches call for the foul when up by three these days, i think it’s only really questionable when you get this kid of result.

No need to foul so early tho. Let him cross halfcourt and foul inside inside of 3 seconds. Mooney scares me when he fouls too early sometimes. Puts a lot of pressure on our guys to make FTS in return and also risks even losing in regulation if they make both FTS, we miss our FTs, and then they score. That is why I am only fouling inside of 3 seconds or not fouling at all.

 

[ChoppinBroccoli]

you can’t ignore the initial act and then punish the second.

You just described half the unsportsmanlike conduct-type penalties ever called.

 

[MrTbone]

You just described half the unsportsmanlike conduct-type penalties ever called.

True, but the difference is it happened at the very end of the game and essentially decided the outcome. You gotta let that go, especially considering it didn’t impact the rest of the possession.

 

[MrTbone]

No need to foul so early tho. Let him cross halfcourt and foul inside inside of 3 seconds. Mooney scares me when he fouls too early sometimes. Puts a lot of pressure on our guys to make FTS in return and also risks even losing in regulation if they make both FTS, we miss our FTs, and then they score. That is why I am only fouling inside of 3 seconds or not fouling at all.

Fouling with 3 seconds instead of 5.5 isn’t the primary concern. The whole point is to foul him before shooting/far enough away from the basket that he can’t earn three at the line.

I’m not defending the strategy, there’s loads of evidence that it only slightly skews the odds of winning in your favor. But I get why you do it under 10 seconds and presumably have decent free throw shooters of your own.

 

[VT4700]

Fouling with 3 seconds instead of 5.5 isn’t the primary concern. The whole point is to foul him before shooting/far enough away from the basket that he can’t earn three at the line.

I’m not defending the strategy, there’s loads of evidence that it only slightly skews the odds of winning in your favor. But I get why you do it under 10 seconds and presumably have decent free throw shooters of your own.

I would not want to foul with that much time left. Let's say you are up 3 and foul with 8 seconds left. They make them both and you are now only up 1 with 8 seconds left. They foul with 7 seconds left, and even if you make 1 FT, they can still beat you with a 3 pointer. Fouling with that much time risks a loss in regulation. If you are up 3 inside of 10 seconds, the worst thing that should happen is OT.

There is a big difference in 3.0 and 5.5. Huge difference. If you foul with 3.0, they will most likely have to try to make the first and miss the 2nd, get the rebound, and score to send it into OT. There is not enough time to make both FTs to pull within one, and then foul with around 2 seconds left, because even if FTs are missed with 2 seconds left, it is hard to score with that little time left.

But, if you foul with 5.5 left, the team can now make both FTs to pull within 1 and then foul, or even take an extra second and go for the steal. Now, if you miss FTs up one with about 4 seconds left, there is enough time for them to score and beat you. The last thing I am doing when up 3 that late is losing in regulation, and fouling outside of 5 seconds brings a loss into play.

 

[MrTbone]

So I won’t debate your math and scenarios. What remains true is that many coaches are very comfortable fouling with that much time on the clock up by three. Moreover, you wouldn’t try to work down the clock an extra 2 seconds if the alternative is that you might give the opponent a halfway decent look at a three or put your player in position to foul a three point shot. So either commit to the foul preshot or don’t.

 

[VT4700]

So I won’t debate your math and scenarios. What remains true is that many coaches are very comfortable fouling with that much time on the clock up by three. Moreover, you wouldn’t try to work down the clock an extra 2 seconds if the alternative is that you might give the opponent a halfway decent look at a three or put your player in position to foul a three point shot. So either commit to the foul preshot or don’t.

I hear you, and you are correct in that many coaches do foul with 5 seconds left. Another factor for me is whether or not the team trailing has a timeout left. If they are out of timeouts, I could feel comfortable fouling between 4 and 5 seconds because if they make both FTs and then foul you down 1, they will have a hard time getting off a good shot without a timeout if you miss a FT. Just grabbing the rebound and throwing an outlet pass in the backcourt will eat up close to 2 seconds. However, with a TO left, if you miss a FT up 1 or 2 with around 4 seconds left, they can grab the rebound, call timeout and set up a play. Just under 4 seconds is plenty of time to get off a decent shot.

I simply will not risk losing in regulation, so I will let the situation and timeouts remaining dictate that. If my team is money from the FT line, I would be willing to foul a little sooner, but not much. But, we have not always been money at the line, which is another reason I get a little worried when Mooney fouls too early. Although, Ced did seem to knock them down most times, and I hope Jacob can consistently do that late in games for us.

I will also play good 3 point defense so if you do get off a 3 pointer, it will be a low percentage.shot. Get up on your guy and let him drive by you if he wants. And, don't leave your man!! How many times have you seen a team down 3 penetrate, and for some reason the guy guarding the corner guy leaves his man to help out on the guy penetrating. This leaves an open 3 for the corner guy. My teams would never allow that to happen. It is very simple. Do not leave your man. If the other team calls TO down 3 with 10 seconds left, guess what I am telling my team about 10 times? Do not leave your man!!

I see both sides of the argument. I am not saying anyone is right or wrong, just saying how I would play things.

 

[MrTbone]

Yeah, I don’t love the philosophy myself, never a fan of giving someone a 70% chance for two points versus a 33% chance for three.

 

[SpiderK]

OK, RVA, you may have me there. But you have to admit, there was quite a few threads of conversation early on on this board about how Mooney was a hot head, and the old timers were pissed off about him dropping F bombs and losing it from time to time. Then, something changed and he just became a lifeless, stale coach that wanted to succeed (it would be nice ) but no longer HAD to succeed. Still think after this event and season he got neutered by the admin in some regard and has not had the same fire since.

I see what 23 is saying. Whether the meltdown was warranted or not, it was a pivotal point in Mooney's demeanor. It was like he started taking Prozac with his cup of water. However he still cusses a lot at practice, but much less during the games.

 

[coachfezz]

I hear you, and you are correct in that many coaches do foul with 5 seconds left. Another factor for me is whether or not the team trailing has a timeout left. If they are out of timeouts, I could feel comfortable fouling between 4 and 5 seconds because if they make both FTs and then foul you down 1, they will have a hard time getting off a good shot without a timeout if you miss a FT. Just grabbing the rebound and throwing an outlet pass in the backcourt will eat up close to 2 seconds. However, with a TO left, if you miss a FT up 1 or 2 with around 4 seconds left, they can grab the rebound, call timeout and set up a play. Just under 4 seconds is plenty of time to get off a decent shot.

I simply will not risk losing in regulation, so I will let the situation and timeouts remaining dictate that. If my team is money from the FT line, I would be willing to foul a little sooner, but not much. But, we have not always been money at the line, which is another reason I get a little worried when Mooney fouls too early. Although, Ced did seem to knock them down most times, and I hope Jacob can consistently do that late in games for us.

I will also play good 3 point defense so if you do get off a 3 pointer, it will be a low percentage.shot. Get up on your guy and let him drive by you if he wants. And, don't leave your man!! How many times have you seen a team down 3 penetrate, and for some reason the guy guarding the corner guy leaves his man to help out on the guy penetrating. This leaves an open 3 for the corner guy. My teams would never allow that to happen. It is very simple. Do not leave your man. If the other team calls TO down 3 with 10 seconds left, guess what I am telling my team about 10 times? Do not leave your man!!

Yes i agree



I see both sides of the argument. I am not saying anyone is right or wrong, just saying how I would play things.

 

[coachfezz]

I actually agree with the "T" on Williams. Can't push a guy on a dead ball after a made 1st free throw on a 1 and 1. Crazy that Williams put the official on the spot to have to make that call.
The 3 foul shots on the heave later pushed Mooney over the edge. That was borderline and arguable, but not blatantly the wrong call either. The guy had left his feet and threw up the heave when he was fouled. We couldn't foul early enough. Just a disastrous ending.

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i think very poor defense on this .

 

[coachfezz]

i think very poor defense on this .

we let him catch ball at half court

 

[ChoppinBroccoli]

I see what 23 is saying. Whether the meltdown was warranted or not, it was a pivotal point in Mooney's demeanor. It was like he started taking Prozac with his cup of water. However he still cusses a lot at practice, but much less during the games.

He has two kids sitting behind him at all the home games, too.

 

[spiderman]

VT, the problem with fouling later is the risk of fouling while a guy heaves a shot up, because he knows you're fouling. just like the call you say should never have been 3 shots.

trying to be impartial, I watched a few times again and still think you have to give DWill the "T". the initial contact stuff happens all the time. it's a battle. but I can't see why an official would let pushing the guy to the ground go. DWill may have been baited, but he bit. his fault.

 

[VT4700]

VT, the problem with fouling later is the risk of fouling while a guy heaves a shot up, because he knows you're fouling. just like the call you say should never have been 3 shots.

trying to be impartial, I watched a few times again and still think you have to give DWill the "T". the initial contact stuff happens all the time. it's a battle. but I can't see why an official would let pushing the guy to the ground go. DWill may have been baited, but he bit. his fault.

Hard to disagree with any of this. I realize exactly what you are saying about the risk of fouling during a 3 point attempt. But, there are times when a team is bringing the ball in with 3 or 4 seconds left, and you can foul once they catch the ball, which should be well before a shot attempt. Sometimes teams run a play where the guy with the ball crosses halfcourt and is obviously passing to a guy on the wing who is coming toward the ball off a screen. Either guy here could be fouled well before the wing gets off a 3. Or, if a guy is dribbling outside the arc trying to set something up for him or someone else, if you are guarding him closely enough like you should be if up 3, you can reach in and get him inside of 4 seconds. Otherwise, I am playing good 3 point defense and making someone make a tough shot to tie the game.

I just do not like fouling with 5 or more seconds left. If they make both, all of a sudden I am only up 1 with 5 seconds left and bringing the ball in under my own basket. This brings a turnover or a 5 second call into play, and even if I get the ball in successfully, now I need to make both FTs with just under 5 seconds left, or risk maybe losing in regulation. Maybe losing this way does not happen often, but I have seen plenty of near misses where the team made FTs to pull within one, and then had a chance to win after either a turnover or missed FT. I have no desire to sweat that scenario out.

Bad by DWill and the ref in my opinion. But, since DWill messed up first, it is fair to say this is on him. Without his push, the ref would not have had a chance to make a questionable call.

 

[97spiderfan]

This video should be burned. I watched it again, just for pure torture purposes. I have zero blame for Mooney on getting thrown out. The game was over at that point anyway and the refs had turned it into a travesty. I have a bit of blame for D-Will because he has to keep his head but he was also clearly arm-barred by the Charlotte player. What I never realized was that was clear strategy to try to get D-Will to do that by Charlotte. You can tell by the look on the Charlotte player's face, his little cheshire cat grin.

However, I forgot what set the whole thing in motion was Mooney's ridiculous early fouling to prevent a tying 3 pointer. The strategy in fouling to prevent a tying 3 is to have the other team bleed time off the clock and then foul them before they get a good look. We just foul as soon as possible, leaving far too much time on the clock for additional plays and redo's of the same situation.

It is a simple strategy and can be effective if the kids are on when to do it but we never seemed to master the all important timing involved in doing it.

 

[ChoppinBroccoli]

Wait....did 97 just agree with VT?

Dogs and cats living together. Mass hysteria!

 

[VT4700]

Wait....did 97 just agree with VT?

I was actually just ready to say I agree with 97. I have always felt Mooney fouls way too early in this situation. Sometimes, even grabbing the guy as he gets the inbounds pass in the backcourt with 7 or 8 seconds left when we could easily wait at least until 5 seconds or under. I agree with 97's other points in the previous post as well.