GKiller said:

Not to pick on spiderstudent17 but we've had this debate, he doesn't think having a 20 year coach like Mooney leads to higher expectations at all

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Please correct me if I’m wrong, but when did I say that? I remember having this conversation a few months ago (my mind is a little hazy on exactly what was said) but I remember making a comment that my expectations for Mooney have and always been NCAA appearances whether that is year 1 or year 20. I gave more leeway the beginning years as he implemented his system and also recognized that years we didn’t make NCAAs weren’t automatically a failure.

But to turn it back to now, obviously this is not a good start for us at all. It’s very disappointing because losing these two games have knocked the wind out of our sails for at least the hope of an at-large. But we’re 3 games into the season and there is a lot left to play. I still believe we have the talent on this roster to surprise people and be a top half conference team. However, a lot of work is needed to get there.

If this team continues to struggle offensively, I may advocate Mooney return to the original Princeton offense he implemented in his first few years which almost always drew the shot clock down below 10 seconds before anyone even looked to take a shot. Most of this was done out of necessity because Mooney didn't have the right players for his system, so he tried to keep the score close with low possessions. We may need to return to that and try to win some games 44-42.

8legs1dream said:

They bring in a new coach and brand new team and don't miss a beat, our dictator has had 20 years to build whatever his vision is but we need more time to get things figured out!

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Right different mindset. Odom built a brand new team, I think left with 4 guys there. He had a similar year to us & they definitely played better down the stretch. in year 1. & now looking to just murder it in year 2. Expectation at vcu regardless. None of this we need 3-4 years build. None of our competition in this era is operating that way anyway, it's a 1-2 year cycle at most. And Odom is no mercenary coach like Willy Wade, he does it the right way. Would have fit at U of R. Plus he has an offensive system too! But maybe it just doesn't take long to be good at it. and who cares if it's recruiting or the system, u r responsible for both.

Meanwhile at U of R with a 20 year dean of A10 coaches even though that should seemingly be a big advantage, we actually have much lower expectations, different mindset, it requires so much time, etc, blah blah. Not to pick on spiderstudent17 but we've had this debate, he doesn't think having a 20 year coach like Mooney leads to higher expectations at all. it doesn't make sense to me. I don't blame him, sadly that is embedded culturally here.

Gallipoli said:

In fact, I predict that Trump will prosecute the prosecutors and their enablers- Jack Smith, Fani Willis, Alvin Bragg, Letitia James and Juan Marchan, to name a few, will be investigated, probed and prosecuted. These are the rouge abusers of lawfare, who trafficked in lies and received benefits paid to them or their families.

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You are a rogue abuser of the truth, please tell us the lies they trafficked in and what benefits were paid to them or their families. You'll probably come up with some far right fiction article with no supporting actual facts.
I do agree with your prediction though, Captain Obvious.

MrTbone said:

we can’t take 2-3 years to teach guys “the system”, not in this day and age of transfers. Is it really that complicated? Asking the basketball pros out there…

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The players take academic courses at UR. So learning Moonie’s System is more difficult than classes at our school? Sorry, I’m not buying that. It’s easy to say how hard it is to learn Moon Sys, but that doesn’t mean it does. These guys have been playing basketball most of their lives and should have the ability to learn and execute in time for season tipoff.

The offense works just fine*

*as long as there is a very good/great PG on the team to save possessions/games at the end
**as long as the opposing team is not really pressuring guards up high and disrupting the initial flow
***as long as the other team isn't too physical
****as long as there are at least 3 very good shooters and a big white guy center who can get them the ball
*****as long as the other team isn't too tall or athletic to smother our shorter guys (guards) and slower guys (centers)

But can any coach these days use the words "rebuilding" when its all about portal and transfers and less about developing HS players.

In the old days (like 5 years ago) you could say rebuilding if you had an older team who made a run and they graduated. Then you might have had some younger players or inexperienced players asked to play major minutes that they never did before - so you expect a rebuild year to get everyone up to speed and hopefully by the next year - your back at it again.

But now with the portal - I don't know if rebuilding exists. Since your not relying on players within your school anymore to progress. Look at our roster this year. Your relying more on transfers to step in and play right away and keep everything moving.

Yeah, Myles played at Penn State and scored almost 1,100 points thanks to the extra COVID year. Never a double-digit scorer, but consistently in that 6–9 PPG range and started a bunch of games for them, though he came off the bench in his final year.

I almost feel like Malcolm has to be injured, but I'm not sure that's the case as he appeared in 7 scattered games for mop-up duty last season, so I guess he really is just that far down the bench. 13 different guys have seen the floor for MSM so far in their three games, but Dread isn't one of them.

GKiller said:

Eh, I think Mooney is even embarassed by this schedule & also the two non d1 games. I said this before, but if you schedule hard and take some lumps some year, who cares. No need for Moon to worry, he's lifetime coach. Better to lose against good national teams than the dregs too. But the biggest thing is you set a precedent u set a culture with schedule. And u get connections for future, maybe u get into a 2 for 1 deal for instance. So if we did do that it's actually hurting u for future when u do have a team that can win.

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Good points and can't disagree. But, what I think we will now pivot too is if we go .500 this year, he can say, rebuilding year, we still were a .500 team despite the youth/new pieces. And enough people will accept that at face value, without looking into the fact that most of the wins will be Quad 3/4 wins as the result of our OOC and probably beating a few of the other bad teams in the A-10.

Of course, right now, if you lose to Marist at home and then 17 to a very mid Charlotte team, tough to see .500. And as you say, no need for Mooney to worry, he just signed his extension, his check cashes whether we win or lose. He could probably run 2 maybe 3 below .500 seasons off in a row before he begins to feel a tiny bit of pressure. He doesn't even know what pressure is at this point. The admin doesn't give it to him, the fan base doesn't, the media doesn't. All he has to do is show up and punch the clock and he is golden.

I think, as we saw just last season and in most seasons, Mooney's offensive system works just fine.
just not with this group yet. unfortunately it might take some time.

GKiller said:

btw is Odom a systems coach?

He had like 4 guys at VCU when he started.

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They bring in a new coach and brand new team and don't miss a beat, our dictator has had 20 years to build whatever his vision is but we need more time to get things figured out!

brooklyn brownstone said:

Moon and/or his assistants need to be better. Especially better at recruiting ready-now freshmen and better at developing them from the get-go. There seems to be this recurring pattern of primarily looking at under the radar HS prospects. But it's a cyclic thing - if you don't get HS recruits who are ready to play, so they don't play right away, what ready-now HS recruit would consider going to UR without a track record of HS recruits getting freshman year playing time?

Who is the last true freshman starter at UR? Not spot starter bc of injury to the actual starter like Tyne last year. Not redshirt starter like Nelson who sat out bc he would have been a spot minutes backup his freshman year.

I'm glad the guards coming in seem to have some size at least. That's been an over-reliance as well in recruiting HS and portal - the guard 6' or under.

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Tyler would have started as a freshman had we not had 5 returning junior starters...and Nelson maybe starts in 2022 if Jacob does not come back for his covid year, but that's about it since Jacob's freshman year.

GKiller said:

Is Dread Moon's biggest freshman recruit miss? I think he's even behind the kid who went to Lindenwood. Dread went to the great Gonzaga after all so I had to be nice, and Covid didn't help, but I remember posting back then how surprised I was when UR took him.

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I think he had an older brother that played P5 ball right? If so maybe that distorted the optics of what he could project to be.

But still, that was one big swing and a miss on a guy that can't even see playing time on a MAAC team. Then we turn around and get smacked at home by a MAAC team so what do I know maybe they are just that good! 🤯

SpiderTrap said:

I thought we were setting up a 2-1 with Mount Olive?

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We visit them twice in return for their generosity this year.

VT4700 said:

Unreal. 5 points in final 13 minutes of 1st half, and then 12 points in the final 12 minutes of the game. My goodness, that is ugly. Breaking it down, the final 13 minutes of the 1st half, we went:
Missed jumper
Missed 3
Turnover
Missed jumper
Missed 3
Missed 3
Made jumper
Missed 3
Missed Layup
Missed 3
Missed FT/Missed FT
Missed jumper
Missed 3
Made Layup
Missed FT/Made FT
Turnover
Missed 3
Missed jumper
Missed 3
Missed 3
Missed jumper.

21 possessions..5 points.

2 turnovers.
1-6 on 2 point mid range shots.
1-4 on FT.
1-2 on Layups.
0-9 from 3.

Just brutal. 6 mid range shots in 13 minutes is bad basketball. I know going 0-9 from 3 and only getting 2 layup tries is no better, but no one runs an offense to shoot 6 mid range jumpers in 13 minutes. That shows you how bad things are when that happens.

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but despite all this, Fire Bennett and Extend Mooney right?

brooklyn brownstone said:

interesting that you say that 4700 about the early possession. Same was true early in 2nd half.

1st half - UR up 14-11 at the 13:00 mark. 5 points the rest of the half.
2nd half - UR cuts 10 point halftime deficit to 2 points (38-36) at 11:24 mark. 12 points rest of the game.
Scrimmage (I forget which one) - starters jump out to a lead, rest of game a virtual tie.

The interesting thing here is that in the first 2 games, 3 of the 4 starts to a half were pretty terrible. Hopefully we can find a consistent 5 and ride them to some wins.

Click to expand...

Unreal. 5 points in final 13 minutes of 1st half, and then 12 points in the final 12 minutes of the game. My goodness, that is ugly. Breaking it down, the final 13 minutes of the 1st half, we went:
Missed jumper
Missed 3
Turnover
Missed jumper
Missed 3
Missed 3
Made jumper
Missed 3
Missed Layup
Missed 3
Missed FT/Missed FT
Missed jumper
Missed 3
Made Layup
Missed FT/Made FT
Turnover
Missed 3
Missed jumper
Missed 3
Missed 3
Missed jumper.

21 possessions..5 points.

2 turnovers.
1-6 on 2 point mid range shots.
1-4 on FT.
1-2 on Layups.
0-9 from 3.

Just brutal. 6 mid range shots in 13 minutes is bad basketball. I know going 0-9 from 3 and only getting 2 layup tries is no better, but no one runs an offense to shoot 6 mid range jumpers in 13 minutes. That shows you how bad things are when that happens.

Moon and/or his assistants need to be better. Especially better at recruiting ready-now freshmen and better at developing them from the get-go. There seems to be this recurring pattern of primarily looking at under the radar HS prospects. But it's a cyclic thing - if you don't get HS recruits who are ready to play, so they don't play right away, what ready-now HS recruit would consider going to UR without a track record of HS recruits getting freshman year playing time?

Who is the last true freshman starter at UR? Not spot starter bc of injury to the actual starter like Tyne last year. Not redshirt starter like Nelson who sat out bc he would have been a spot minutes backup his freshman year.

I'm glad the guards coming in seem to have some size at least. That's been an over-reliance as well in recruiting HS and portal - the guard 6' or under.

spiderman said:

not that it's the reason we lost, but a bunch of those foul calls were ridiculous. this is D1 college basketball. it's not a foul every time there's contact.

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I agree - some questionable and very light foul calls, but give credit to Charlotte. They saw that and they kept pushing the envelope and putting the refs in a spot to either make a call or not, and last night - more times they gave charlotte the call.

Just didn't feel like we drove enough or pounded inside given our shooting woes.

Crazy world we live in, but like I always tell my kids. truth is always somewhere in the middle.

GKiller said:

Eh, I think Mooney is even embarassed by this schedule & also the two non d1 games. I said this before, but if you schedule hard and take some lumps some year, who cares. No need for Moon to worry, he's lifetime coach. Better to lose against good national teams than the dregs too. But the biggest thing is you set a precedent u set a culture with schedule. And u get connections for future, maybe u get into a 2 for 1 deal for instance. So if we did do that it's actually hurting u for future when u do have a team that can win.

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I thought we were setting up a 2-1 with Mount Olive?

GKiller said:

Eh, I think Mooney is even embarassed by this schedule & also the two non d1 games. I said this before, but if you schedule hard and take some lumps some year, who cares. No need for Moon to worry, he's lifetime coach. Better to lose against good national teams than the dregs too. But the biggest thing is you set a precedent u set a culture with schedule. And u get connections for future, maybe u get into a 2 for 1 deal for instance. So if we did do that it's actually hurting u for future when u do have a team that can win.

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This. 100% this.

Lose by 20 to Charlotte or lose by 25 to a good team, same, but one has a high upside in scheduling and the other not so much.

“9. To say Richmond players have stepped up this season is an understatement. The CAA leader (8-2, 6-0) has been boosted by transfers from smaller FCS conferences, including running back Zach Palmer-Smith (Wagner, NEC) as its leading rusher and scorer, linebacker Carter Glassmyer (Saint Francis, NEC) its leading tackler and place-kicker Brandon Peskin (Fordham, Patriot League) its No. 2 scorer. The No. 11 Spiders will clinch at least a share of the conference title with a win at Hampton.”

interesting that you say that 4700 about the early possession. Same was true early in 2nd half.

1st half - UR up 14-11 at the 13:00 mark. 5 points the rest of the half.
2nd half - UR cuts 10 point halftime deficit to 2 points (38-36) at 11:24 mark. 12 points rest of the game.
Scrimmage (I forget which one) - starters jump out to a lead, rest of game a virtual tie.

The interesting thing here is that in the first 2 games, 3 of the 4 starts to a half were pretty terrible. Hopefully we can find a consistent 5 and ride them to some wins.