GKiller said:

haha, u r so right this could be our slogan. I would make it my avatar if I didn't fear for AnnapSpider's blood pressure.

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spiderstudent17 said:

Cursory google search shows that McShay, Douglas, and Elio may have all been spider football teammates in the late 90s

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spiderstudent17 said:

So you're acknowledging that the Bonnie's AD likely qualify what they consider success (compared to other programs) because of external factors that may make it harder to succeed there relative to other places? There have been a lot of things about UR external factors, notably academic standard that had made it harder to succeed here too. Allegedly that has changed recently, which is why Mooney has had more success here the past 5 years. You mentioned that the "resources & advantages we have at UR over St. Bona are enumerable" but when I bring that up saying the same thing about us compared VCU/Dayton, your reply is we shouldn't be making excuses since they are in the same conference as us.

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97spiderfan said:

Yeah, and not 1 higher level program has even inquired about Mooney for the good part of the last decade. Wonder why???

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spiderstudent17 said:

So you're acknowledging that the Bonnie's AD likely qualify what they consider success (compared to other programs) because of external factors that may make it harder to succeed there relative to other places? There have been a lot of things about UR external factors, notably academic standard that had made it harder to succeed here too. Allegedly that has changed recently, which is why Mooney has had more success here the past 5 years. You mentioned that the "resources & advantages we have at UR over St. Bona are enumerable" but when I bring that up saying the same thing about us compared VCU/Dayton, your reply is we shouldn't be making excuses since they are in the same conference as us.

Listen, my goal isn't to shy away and accept defeat as "little ole Richmond". I agree with you that we are in the A10 and we should act like a team that wants to compete in and win in the A10. I just don't see evidence of us not having that commitment that many here claim. We have great facilities, resources, NIL, allegedly loosened academic standards, and have seen good results recently. There are some aspects about us as a university (small, private school, still higher academic standards even if allegedly loosened) that naturally will be factors that may be perceived against us when recruiting players compared to a VCU/Dayton. So my overall point is that our goal of success while it should be high, is likely not the same as P5 programs that would be trying to our basketball coach from us.

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GKiller said:

Schmidt is a wild one to me. On surface yes pretty similar results (tho Schmidt better). But it's looking at all the external factors that make it more amazing. The Bonnies were essentially a death penalty program after the welding scandal. u r pretty young so not sure if u know that context. They were in an abyss. Richmond was a better program pre-Mooney than it's been with Mooney. Also have you ever been to Olean, NY or a game at Bona? I realize not too many have but remarkably I've been to a UR game there. They have a very loyal fanbase as we know & some history, but walking in Reilly Center to get to my seat...I thought I was walking the halls of my elementary school in 1985. That's what it looked like. If you were making a list of difficult places to succeed, I'd put St. Bonaventure up there. The resources & advantages we have at UR over St. Bona are enumerable.

I did not analyze the "inevitable" down seasons u mentioned in another post we were due for here. We're on season 8 of inevitable down years. 8 of 20.

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97spiderfan said:

Yes it is. VCU and Dayton are both in the same damn league as us. It is a failure to not just strive but to actually be the best program we can be, on par with the our peer schools in our league. All we have to do is look 6 miles down the road to see one of those peer schools doing it. We've been just been conditioned to think this is the best success we can hope for. No one at VCU is saying nonsense like this ever (I'm not calling out you specifically 17) but this is what is parroted by our leadership all of the time. Listen to the VCU AD speak, listen to their media guys talk, listen to their coach talk. They all talk about winning ALL of the time, being a Top 25 program and going to the NCAA's. It is the sole focus of everything they do at VCU, as it should be here and everywhere, but yet it isn't here.

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spiderstudent17 said:

Well the short catch phrase answer that many will harp on is because of Mooney's overall lack of NCAA tournament success. However, there is more nuance to this in my eyes. Mooney is coaching at the second highest tiered-level right now, below the P5s so the only way he can move higher on the coaching totem poll is to go to a P5 program. Programs in comparable level conferences like AAC, MWC wouldn't pursue him even if he did have super high level success here. The threshold of coaching in a P5 program is much higher than moving let’s say from the MAAC to Missouri Valley Conference to the A10. In other words, it’s easier to move up the coaching ladder from the 30th best conference to the 21st best conference to the 12th best conference than it is to come from the 8th/9th best conference to the 3rd or 4th best conference.


It’s not just programs like Duke, UNC, etc. but virtually every power conference team has more resources, money, pedigree compared to us where their demands are going to be higher in terms of excellence. Mooney can do well in the eyes of UR administration, but not do well enough in the eyes of P5s where it warrants reaching out to him. So essentially the categories are 1: Mooney performs so well P5s want him. 2: Mooney performs well enough for UR to want to keep him. 3: Mooney performs poor enough that UR wants to fire him. I would say that in the eyes of UR administration, Mooney currently falls somewhere between category 1 and 2, and maybe in the past has been between categories 2 and 3, which is why he hasn't been fired nor has had P5 programs reaching out for him.

Mark Schmidt is in his 18th year at the Bonnies. He has won 2 A10 tournaments and 2 A10 regular seasons. He has been to NCAA's 3 times. He has a win percentage of 57.3% at St. Bonaventure. Let's compare this to Mooney who is in his 20th year with Richmond. He has won 2 A10 tournaments, 1 A10 regular season, been to NCAA's 3 times and has a winning percentage of 56.3% at UR. Should Mark Schmidt be fired as coach too for underperforming?

What I don't understand is why we take every opportunity to harp on Mooney and his lack of NCAA tournament success and not acknowledge that we have also had very good years and high success recently, even if we didn't make the NCAAs. He won coach of the year in the A10 last year. I am not immune to saying Mooney should be let go. If this year continues to be very bad for us and next year is the same case, then I think it warrants discussion about his future as a coach here. But the reality is that mid major programs like us (even in a great conference like A10) likely have different definitions of what warrants success compared to P5 programs. Yes, VCU and Dayton are standards of mid major programs who are able to achieve P5 success and that is the goal we should strive for, but failing to match VCU/Dayton level success is not inherently a failure.

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97spiderfan said:

Covid year is all hypothetical at this point. We could have gotten an at large OR we could have lost in the first round of the A-10 tourney like we did last year after a great regular season and flamed out in the NIT. You never will know. Also, as has been said over and over again, 2022 doesn't happen without 2020 getting cancelled. So, you can't make both arguments in propping up Mooney. And also there was 2021 in between where we completely flamed out in what was a really random year of basketball.

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GKiller said:

did u just compare pretentious Hardt to Teddy Roosevelt? lmao. never saw that coming.

Also, it's Big Hat No Cattle. Copyright GKiller. Tho if u swapped in Big Hardt for Big Hat on purpose...nice, that's not bad.

And many criticized that comment? Maybe there were others I really don't remember seeing, but we all know that's me. U can call me out. In fact I encourage. I won't take personal.

I assume u missed my explanation for why I wish we would have more confidence but I'm not going to praise that particular one...

Because we never talk, act, or expect to truly be 1 of the top bball programs in nation any other time! Waiting 20 years. Go for it Richmond. Instead when do we get it....in a self serving press release to announce yet another extension. That's when we bust it out? Please. Not going to respect that when the body of work is 1 NCAA going on 14 years, 9-25 vs. crosstown rival in same conference, and 8 out of 20 inevitable down years.

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8legs1dream said:

I swear we talk more about that cancelled covid season than Dayton fans do who had an open lane to a 1 seed and legitimate shot at a national title that year. The only difference is we only bring it up in the context of propping up Mooney 🤷‍♂️

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spiderstudent17 said:

.Always ironic to bring up football success now when we have had the most wins in CAA the past 3 years, back-to-back titles for the first time in CAA, will have 3rd playoff appearance in a row, and a strong chance to get a playoff seed.

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spiderstudent17 said:

Giving my completely honest assessment from what I have seen the past 4 games, I think we only have 2 A10 caliber level players on this roster right now. Hunt, who is an A10 level starter, and Beagle who is an A10 level role player. It's a small sample size of 4 games, but that is how I see things are right now. So might as well try something different in terms of player rotations, different line-ups during the game, and see if that helps bring out player abilities more.

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spiderstudent17 said:

That last point of "failing to match VCU/Dayton level success is not inherently a failure" is not suggesting that we shouldn't strive to achieve the things VCU and Dayton have while in the A10. Of course we should. Like I said to GK, we are in the A10 and we should act like an A10 team and there is no reason to think we aren't committed to that sucsess. My statement was saying that even if we don't match that level of success, it isn't necessarily a failure. 2020 is a perfect example. Dayton was top 5 in the country and likely #1 seed in NCAA tournament. That year, we finished 2nd in A10, had 24-7 record and a strong chance for an at-large. Should we say that our season a failure that year because Dayton had such an incredible season? Should we say our sweet 16 run was a failure in 2011 because VCU also made the final four that year? Personally, I don't think their accomplishments takes away from what we achieved.

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8legs1dream said:

And that bolded line is just brilliant. You should submit that to the Athletic Department, that is new AD slogan material right there 😂
failing to match VCU/Dayton level success is not inherently a failure.

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spiderstudent17 said:

A lot of people get on Hardt too for not being public about expectations. It was Theodore Roosevelt who said "speak softly and carry a big stick". That assertive approach is applicable in a way to demanding excellence in athletics where talking the talk isn't as important as walking the walk. "Big Hardt no cattle" Hardt has helped UR athletics have a season last year where 10 out of its 19 teams finished either 1st or 2nd in the A10. First time since the mid 2000s where our sports programs won 5 championships.

And even when we have made public comments like saying we are one of the top programs in the nation, many came here and criticized Mooney for that lol, rather than praising the confidence and belief that we belong in that category.

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8legs1dream said:

If the excuse is that it's soooo hard to get a P5 coaching job from the mid major level then how has the coach of the team across town been able to accomplish that feat, what, 5 or 6 times in the past 20 years? How do your eyes like that nuance.


Who are you kidding, he is firmly in the number 2 camp. You know no P5's want him and you have already laid out the excuse framework above why that is the case.


That is their decision to make. If they are good with the results then they should keep him. Some of us dare to think that we can reach greater heights with greater consistency than we have in Mooney's tenure. We are the bad ones of course for daring to dream.



Because NCAA tournament appearances is the ultimate metric of a healthy program. You go ahead get revved up over coach of the year awards and regular season titles that mean mostly nothing in the long run, and sure as hell didn't mean anything last season as we crashed into the sun and still haven't recovered.

And that bolded line is just brilliant. You should submit that to the Athletic Department, that is new AD slogan material right there 😂
failing to match VCU/Dayton level success is not inherently a failure.

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