The Big Dam On the Ole Trickle Down

[tarrantula]

Kind of a slow time for sports news, why don't we get back to bashing each other about politics. I enjoy the banter as long as no one takes it personally...and, these discussions inspire me to read and ponder...





National debt as reported by the Treasury during terms in office of Presidents over last 30 years:





Ronald Reagan:




Took office Jan. 1981. Total debt $848 billion.




Left Office January 1989. Total debt $2,698 billion.




Percent change in total debt: +218%





George H. W. Bush:




Took Office January 1989 Total debt $2,698 billion.




Left office 20 January 1993. Total debt $4,188 billion




Percent change in total debt: +55%





Bill Clinton:




Took office 20 January 1993. Total debt: $4,188 billion.




Left Office 20 January 2001. Total debt $5,728 billion.




Percent change in total debt: +37%





George W. Bush:




Took Office 20 January 2001: Total debt $5,728 billion.




Left office 20 January 2009: Total debt $10,627 billion.




Percent change in total debt: +86%





Barack Obama:




Took office: 20 January 2009: Total debt: $10,627 billion




Today: approximately $15 trillion









Remember that a big part of the initial spending of the Obama years was to put money into a banking system that was on the brink of collapse due to lack of regulation during the bush years (think: Free Market Economy) and to finance the 2nd war in Iraq...the CIA in recent months released a report that Iraq never had any weapons of mass distruction and there never was any real evidence to sugest that they did. Remember the picture of the quonset hut with trucks parked beside it that we were shown by Dick Chaney.) Oh, well, at least Haliburton made a bunch of money.





There is plenty of blame to spread around on both sides. The financial crisis belongs on the shoulders of Congress as well as the President. I agree with critics of "Obamacare" who say that the bill has major flaws. But, at least that money will be spent in this country..on Americans and to Americans. I have seen first hand many times the plight of hard working people who have no health insurance and have a child with a serious health condition or injury. By far, the biggest area of spending by our government is on the military...we have enemies around the world who must be deterred, but there is room for reduction of costs that are sending us hurtling toward bankruptcy...ie why do we need to keep bases in Germany to prevent a resurgance of the Nazi party and to deter the Soviet Union? There is no active Nazi party and the Soviet Union no longer exists. I agree with my friend Spinner that we are in desperate straits financially, but the problem lies on the shoulders of both parties. If the two parties would put aside the bitter, ugly partisanship that gridlocks progress in this country, we would all be the better for it. IMO, neither electing Republicans, nor electing Democrats is the answer. We need to elect statemen and women who will work together to solve our problems.





This post was edited on 8/8 10:49 AM by tarrantula


This post was edited on 8/8 11:00 AM by tarrantula

This post was edited on 8/8 12:56 PM by tarrantula

 

[Spiders05]

Originally posted by tarrantula:




Remember that a big part of the initial spending of the Obama years was to put money into a banking system that was on the brink of collapse due to lack of regulation during the bush years

Have you read Reckless Endangerment? Pretty solid book on the primary reasons for the collapse. It goes back a lot further than the Bush years.

 

[tarrantula]

Haven't read it. Agree on the degree of the crisis. Both sides are so busy placing blame on the other instead of seeking answers that no progress is on the way. I suspect that no matter who wins the pending election..Obamacare will undergo some sort of revision. But, if we are to regain fiscal stability, the military spending which is far and away our biggest expenditure needs revision as well. IMO, once this election is in the books, the winner needs to immediately address our budget. I'm not sure that a bipartisan group of legislators could do the job. Is there a way to find a blue ribbon board of auditors(the best CPA's in the country) to save us? I don't believe that the group we have in Congress (on both sides) would ever agree on that solution or any that works. I don't have much faith that we'll see tax reform or spending reform become a product of our current Congress.

 

[WebSpinner]

the point is washington is making no effort to reduce the size of govt though it is apparent that we cannot sustain, no matter how much they raise taxes on the rich, this spending spree. look at europe, that is us with a printing press, which we use like a drunk sailor or whatever your choice of military personnel. in addition, reagan made a deal with congress to reduce spending and guess what, it never happened and is why a deal should not be made to raise taxes without spending already taking place because it will never happen, UNTIL, we go down the toilet and those in dc will be wondering what happened. they are either too stupid, or just want the status quo of govt continuing to grow. it simply cannot

This post was edited on 8/8 12:22 PM by WebSpinner

This post was edited on 8/8 12:23 PM by WebSpinner

 

[tarrantula]

We all agree on the size of the crisis. The quesion is how do we start to solve it? Cutting spending and increasing revenue(taxes AND other means) is the obvious answer. The problem is that neither side will compromise on the mechanics. Can it be as simple as saying that each area of the budget will be reduced by some factor, effective Groundhog Day, and tell the Cabinet men and women to get to work on a plan? At the same time, the President tells Congress that they must devise a plan to increase tax revenues by the same percentage. Require that no more than some certain% of any cabinet level budget can be spent on projects to benefit other nations? I don't see this happening...and, certainly not in a time frame that would eliminate the crisis. Instead, each party will continue pointing fingers at the other. The public will continue electing folks based on absurd political ads. I read the constant posts on political matters on this board and began my own discussions to try to sort out what is truth and what is fiction. The only truths that I can find is that we are on the brink of financial disaster and our leaders are more focused on placing blame on the other party and protecting their own interests than in finding an answer. The groundhog would probably crawl back into his hole and start making out his will.
This post was edited on 8/8 12:59 PM by tarrantula

 

[MolivaManiac]

Here is an interesting link.

How in the world could the IRS have had its 3 biggest years of tax collections in its history from 2006 through 2008 at these absurdly low tax rates for 'rich people'?

Also, note the explosion of the number in Column 6 in 2009, 2010, 2011.

One more thing. Look at the projected revenues for the next half dozen years and how flat spending is projected to be during that period - LOL.

What else can be interpreted?

What would be really interesting is to lay some of these numbers over % GDP growth for the respective years.

http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxfacts/displayafact.cfm?Docid=200

 

[WebSpinner]

the only truth i know and have seen is that spending cuts to those in dc is a reduction in the growth, not actual cuts. at least in the defense dept, when you close a base(s) that is a true reduction. still would never compromise on taxes without actual, real cuts being in place first. again, the raising of taxes on the rich increases revenue by $206 billion by the year 2015 yet we are spending $1.5 TRILLION more than we take in. tell me where reducing the deficit from $1.5 TRILLION to $1.3 TRILLION does any good, the dem deal is strictly class warfare and does not dent, nick the deficit so why do it other than to say, we got those rich bastards. that is real adult thinking.

 

[tarrantula]

Thanks, Mo. That is an interesting chart. Now, we need to break down the spending to see where it has gone. Which areas saw large increases? How has revenue varried over periods examined? I am no accountant, but I can read a budget. I have moved on from partisan arguments to recognition of the crisis and concern that neither side has an adequate plan to deal with the impending financial crisis that looms in our near future.

 

[WebSpinner]

first of all the folks in washington have to face facts and so far, they are not, just playing games. again say the easiest way to get true, actual, real, cuts is just to cut all govt checks, direct deposits, which would include contracts, paychecks, retirement social security, doctor and hospital payments, welfare, medicaid, EVERYTHING, by at least 10%. have no idea really what that turns out to be dollar-wise but bet it would be a good start and it would be real cuts, not imaginary cuts 10 years from now. also that would just address current spending and does nothing to go after the unfunded liabilities which are in the hundreds of trillions. we can also place a moratorium on all spending to foreign countries and money for brazil and mexico to drill for offshore oil, for example. we have a huge problem, really huge is not an accurate adjective, it is so much larger than huge.

This post was edited on 8/8 7:03 PM by WebSpinner

 

[Rivercup]

Check out the attached youtube link. Therein lies the problem; spending far exceeds available revenue. Of course, we all knew that, but this gives you some data that you probably had not considered. It is not political; merely factual.


http://www.youtube-nocookie.com/embed/EW5IdwltaAc?rel=0

This post was edited on 8/9 1:05 PM by Rivercup

 

[WebSpinner]

well at least my minimum 10% cut of all govt checks will hit all of those areas other than interest. think about if interest rates rise, being held down artificially right now by the fed and other central banks around the world, the interest on our debt will absolutely be the tipping point. am not sure we really have a leader out there who can outline what this guy just did and say, we are going to fix this or try to fix this. as long as everyone is feeling the pain, we can do this, cannot exempt some class or some group(s), we must all take part in this. we have screwed the pooch and will now have to pay for it but has to be done. not what i envisioned my retirement being but i saved, did not buy new cars, did not put myself into debt or live lavishly yet i will be screwed along with those who did it the wrong way and did not look toward the future. cannot finger point, all of our politicians put us into this situation. again, this does not even consider the unfunded liabilities our govt has, this is just our debt on current spending. houston, we have a problem.

 

[MolivaManiac]

I read a poll yesterday where 54% of workers didn't know that their employer pay taxes on their wages, in addition to the taxes deducted from their own paycheck.

I fear that the Electorate is too disinterested and too misinformed for us to expect any real changes from our representatives in Washington.

 

[MolivaManiac]

Spinner, here's a good one.

I'll bet that the government management of health insurance will be much more efficient than this deal though, right?

USDA spends $2M to get One Intern

 

[WebSpinner]

actually, it comes down to what type of intern they got there. as we all know there are some interns who really earn their money in dc.

 

[WebSpinner]

forgot to add, when you look at that mandatory spending area, medicare, medicaid, social security,etc. etc. obamacare in the form of trillions is going to be added. we absolutely cannot afford to add more money, big, huge, money to that part of the ledger, yet we are. we are making some of the biggest mistakes, exactly at a time where we cannot afford to do so.

 

[tarrantula]

Just watched the Hal Mason piece that Rivercup linked for us. That is the first time I have seen all the figures in one place. A startling and frightening explanation. Now, I understand Spinner's campaign against pensions and entitlements. The problem is that cutting those programs won't by itself solve the problem. Raising taxes and spending cuts can only slow down the spiral, it will take more to stabilize our budget. My viewpoint is that of an untrained and unsophisticated observer, but it would seem to me that we have no chance to stem this tide of debt without becoming a nation that makes and sells things again. Increase our GDP. How we can do that in competition with the low wage production of Asian countries is a mystery to me. Is there a candidate from either party who would bring about the radical reforms this situation would require? Who is gonna cut the military budget which is our largest budget item in times of threats from around the world? What politician is gonna eliminate all the entitlement programs and what would happen in this country if someone did? I have always been a fan of Ron Paul and think that he might engineer helpful changes, but he doesn't have the political backing to get elected. A look back at spending by both Republican and Democratic administrations shows that neither major party has been a force for major change. The rest of the world seems to be in similar shape. Have we outgrown our planet?

 

[WebSpinner]

T, one of the probs is our aging population, me, you, our parents, if still living. when social security and other private pension plans came on the scene, folks lived to maybe age 67 or something, now we are living much longer lives thus making these programs so much more expensive. all of these programs can be cut but you are right, we are in deep doo-doo and not sure we can really get out of it. again, it may take us going bankrupt and thus some or all of these programs being not cut but just eliminated automatically. if we really wish to compete globally, we definitely have to change some of those in power's attitude of business, corporations. we have to make it easier, more attractive to do business here not keep piling on more and more regulations or programs that they must implement and pay for just because it makes up feel good. we need a different attitude and we need to create a better atmosphere and even then will be a tough road but at least we would be attempting to right the ship. defense has been cut a lot since the berlin wall fell, bases closed, personnel cut yet that budget keeps growing, guess the technology portion (stealth aircraft, etc). really think we are too far gone to fix it this time, the worst i have ever seen and the first time i have actually been frightened. one thing is for sure, we have to try and get it fixed but not sure there is anyone in dc who wants to take it on but hope someone rises to the task and says to heck with getting reelected, we need to grab the alligator, hold on and get going on at least trying to solve it. who knows, there are things that could happen, things we cannot imagine right now, to help us along the way. no matter which way we go or what eventually happens, having a firearm, might be a prudent measure at this point.

 

[bscoper]

Assuming everything hits the fan, how do you try and protect your wealth? Buy gold, silver, land, food, bonds, or put everything under the mattress?

 

[WebSpinner]

have talked with a lot of people about this and no real answer, other than to be aware, have some cash on hand, not in the bank but in your pocket, house. i have owned gold, silver, bars, coins for decades and hope i can just pass them on to my kids but purchased them to have just in case it does hit the fan, they would be worth something. heard one guy say, to heck with gold and silver, just make sure you have tons of toilet paper and tons of toothpaste at the house and you will be golden.....lol. know when this thing first started, money markets were getting ready to go down the toilet, they was a run on, so do not count on anything being safe if the big event occurs. let's just hope we can avoid it but this is as close as it has come in my lifetime and hope we can hold it together with just some probs but not utter collapse. even in our personal lives, debt and divorce are the two big probs which lead to bankruptcy and know the govt will not have a divorce but the debt is staggering with no real way to pay it off, at least right now. you probably can count on, seeing some of it already, huge inflation because that is one way to pay off your debt with worthless dollars and am sure the politicians see it that way as well. to give you younger guys some idea: when i graduated in 1970 and got my first job, remember filling up my company car with gas at 18.9 cents per gallon, when inflation started, went to 57.9 cents, which sounds good now but that was a doubling almost overnight, was looking at a sports camro at $1,900.00, yes, under $2,000 and that was brand new. inflation is unbelievable to live through. can already see big increases at the grocery store, etc. the bad part is if we get the tax increases needed, on all of us, not just the rich, along with the inflation, it just sucks.

 

[MolivaManiac]

Originally posted by bscoper:
Assuming everything hits the fan, how do you try and protect your wealth? Buy gold, silver, land, food, bonds, or put everything under the mattress?

I think you protect your wealth with all of that stuff, but I don't think bonds provide any more safety and yield than blue chip stocks do/will.

 

[WebSpinner]

T, will say once again, have not campaigned against pensions and entitlements. look at any of my posts, have campaigned against ALL govt spending, ALL. until i viewed the mason piece above, did not know what the mix was and am even more frightened now. there should not be any programs which are '"hands off", cannot be or we will not even come close to solving this. i thought i had some handle on what was going on but was not even close, would suggest that the majority of americans have no idea. now i know why my wife's cousin's husband took all of his money and bought some land in panama and moved there lock, stock and barrel, except for his wife who remains in florida to fend for herself. no question but that the govt cannot be everything to everybody, solve all of the problems its citizens face. it should be doing what it was originally designed for not being a general store and the main reason is, it (WE) cannot pay for it. some entity should run national ads on TV of mason's teaching so that we all know what we face, right now, very few understand our deal.

 

[72Spider]

You're not leaving Mrs. Spinner in Texas when you go to Panama are you? Or is she going to leave you there?

 

[WebSpinner]

she would throw a block party and wish me good luck, blow me a kiss and say bon voyage, which is what her cousin did for her hubby, though she would not allow me to depart with all the money.