Without fail, after each and every loss, we have a few posters who immediately devolve into vitriolic "blame Mooney" mode.
THAT is what is shameful.
THAT is what is shameful.
Shameful
- Thread starter kneepadmckinney
- Start date
Kneepad, I agree. IMHO, both our coaches and players did a great job. It seemed in the second half that our players were pretty tired and their shots stopped falling. However, Miami is a very good team and perhaps without our shooting acumen they were just better than us. Love our team and coaches and cannot wait for the new season to begin.
This is sports. U turn to the head coach when colappses and close losses happen. This wasn't just a one time thing, IT HAPPENED ALL YEAR LONG. How about we look at the coach for recruiting guards well under 6 feet and forwards who get outmuscled down low. It's time to recruit "men" to our program not little boys who get pushed around. I put this "failed" and "underachieving" season on mooneys shoulders. I expected much more from this team
I don't know who you blame, if you blame anyone. And yes - unfortunatley in college sports, it tends to fall on the coaches, especially the head coach. It comes with the territory and part of the reason they are paid the big bucks.
Did Mooney miss the open looks in the 2nd half? Did Mooney miss the free throws? Did Mooney get pushed around on the boards? No.
We lost this game in the 2nd half because Miami outplayed our guys. They outhustled us. They decided to attack the glass and get every offensive rebound possible, And we had some good looks - but just could not hit shots, and we missed some key free throws down the stretch.
This game was very typical of many of our losses all season. Our defense was very good - we held Miami to about 30% shooting. We gave up a lot of free throws (Miami was 23-28) and we gave up too many offensive rebounds 17. On our end - we didn't make enough 3's to counter the offensive rebounds (we shot 5-21), and we really hurt ourselves at the free throw line 14-21.
So in the end - we loss the game because of offensive rebounds and our inability to score in the 2nd half. Pretty familiar for our losses. We usually get hurt on the glass and go through long periods of scoring droughts. Who is to blame for that? Players, coaches, - its probably a combination of both.
Did Mooney miss the open looks in the 2nd half? Did Mooney miss the free throws? Did Mooney get pushed around on the boards? No.
We lost this game in the 2nd half because Miami outplayed our guys. They outhustled us. They decided to attack the glass and get every offensive rebound possible, And we had some good looks - but just could not hit shots, and we missed some key free throws down the stretch.
This game was very typical of many of our losses all season. Our defense was very good - we held Miami to about 30% shooting. We gave up a lot of free throws (Miami was 23-28) and we gave up too many offensive rebounds 17. On our end - we didn't make enough 3's to counter the offensive rebounds (we shot 5-21), and we really hurt ourselves at the free throw line 14-21.
So in the end - we loss the game because of offensive rebounds and our inability to score in the 2nd half. Pretty familiar for our losses. We usually get hurt on the glass and go through long periods of scoring droughts. Who is to blame for that? Players, coaches, - its probably a combination of both.
Part of the problem last night was that the first half was an anomaly for both teams. That gave us all an inflated sense of security, as if we were going to run an ACC team that put up 90 POINTS at Duke out of our gym. Obviously they were not going to come out in the second half and score only 18 points again. In basketball, the game almost always regresses to the mean. That's what happened last night.
We still should have won the game, of course, and there are many reasons why we didn't, but I'm not going to blame any one person or coach this time. We had plenty of chances and just didn't get it done. Everyone should be shooting free throws nonstop this summer.
We still should have won the game, of course, and there are many reasons why we didn't, but I'm not going to blame any one person or coach this time. We had plenty of chances and just didn't get it done. Everyone should be shooting free throws nonstop this summer.
Pretty sure I'm OK with recruiting Kevin Anderson, Kendall Anthony and Shawndre Jones. Two of them will have jerseys in the rafters, and the third will end up with 1300 career points. Pointing at this as evidence of bad recruiting is shockingly dumb.
The issue I have is that this group goes from 0 to 1 million on the hate scale after each and every loss: Mooney is a moron, Mooney lost the team, we'd have a better record with no coach, etc. etc.
He wasn't a moron when we came out and TJ hit two threes to start the game and we jumped to a 13-2 lead, but he's a moron when TJ misses the open three in the second half? Sometimes guys miss shots. We missed shots--open threes, layups, foul shots. If we make one of each--Kendall's layup, TJ's open three, TJ's foul shot--I bet we win the game. And suddenly he's not a moron and we are celebrating the achievement of going to MSG. But the players did miss the shots, and now we have Elmer Fudd coaching the team.
The issue I have is that this group goes from 0 to 1 million on the hate scale after each and every loss: Mooney is a moron, Mooney lost the team, we'd have a better record with no coach, etc. etc.
He wasn't a moron when we came out and TJ hit two threes to start the game and we jumped to a 13-2 lead, but he's a moron when TJ misses the open three in the second half? Sometimes guys miss shots. We missed shots--open threes, layups, foul shots. If we make one of each--Kendall's layup, TJ's open three, TJ's foul shot--I bet we win the game. And suddenly he's not a moron and we are celebrating the achievement of going to MSG. But the players did miss the shots, and now we have Elmer Fudd coaching the team.
why do we keep posting about who to blame? do we have to blame someone for every loss. it's sports. someone loses. if we win at the end, does Larranaga get the blame or the players? Miami's a good team or they wouldn't still be playing. we've beaten a bunch of good teams this year. it was a good season. I just don't understand some fans here sometimes.
re:We lost this game in the 2nd half because Miami outplayed our guys. They outhustled us. They decided to attack the glass and get every offensive rebound possible, And we had some good looks - but just could not hit shots, and we missed some key free throws down the stretch.
Trap, in just 2 short sentences you summed up last 11 minutes.
Also, Larranaga had an interesting quote about the press.....paraphrasing
It took about 8 or 9 seconds off the 30 second clock, so our sets got a bit rushed,......
Trap, in just 2 short sentences you summed up last 11 minutes.
Also, Larranaga had an interesting quote about the press.....paraphrasing
It took about 8 or 9 seconds off the 30 second clock, so our sets got a bit rushed,......
holy crap, 42. top 5 all time scorer. tough defender. single handedly made pressing us ineffective. heart and soul leader of this team. one of the all time great Spiders and you'd rather have a lesser player that's taller? you're going to blame not getting to the NCAA's on Kendall? really?
I've been guilty of it at times too but i agree. We've been playing the blame game for 4 months. Now the season is over and we don't have anything until football starts up. We had some highs and we had some lows. Lick your wounds for a little while if you need to and get ready for a big year next year after the summer.
Its about adjustments. A lot of games we say "well the other team came out and crashed the boards." Ok, what are we going to do about it? It just seems like we run the same things no matter who we play or how the game is going. Its not that the strategy is that bad, its that we never seem adjust it based on the situation at hand.
That's a very fair point. Our rebounding is a mess, we have to own up to that at some point. System excuses only go so far.
I wonder how much of last night was just a bench depth issue. We really only played 7 guys (Josh only saw 10 mins). By contract, MIA rolled in 10 guys, 8 of whom played 10 or more minutes. They outsized us at every position pretty much.
I thought this quote from Larranage summed it up pretty good. They just came out in the 2nd half, especially towards the end and really just bullied us and beat us up.
"I told my team at halftime we just needed to play harder and faster and attack more than we did in the first half," Larranaga said. "We did not get a single free throw in the first half. In the second half, it was still much the same for about the first 10 minutes, and then finally we started to attack more."
"I told my team at halftime we just needed to play harder and faster and attack more than we did in the first half," Larranaga said. "We did not get a single free throw in the first half. In the second half, it was still much the same for about the first 10 minutes, and then finally we started to attack more."
Right. The frustration is that people saw us completely dominate teams for large chunks of games this year, and then wilt down the stretch and do EVERYTHING wrong until we just barely lost by 1-3 points. It happened enough times that I think people are justified in asking why? What causes that to happen to us repeatedly?
Is it that the coaches failed to identify and react to what was happening? Is it that our players froze up and just couldn't figure out what to do? Is it that we regressed to the mean downward and the other team advanced to the mean upward? Is is just random coincidence that it happened 7 or 8 times this year? Do we lack a killer instinct? Did the other team figure out what we were doing well?
It may be that you can't really assess blame in any one spot.
Is it that the coaches failed to identify and react to what was happening? Is it that our players froze up and just couldn't figure out what to do? Is it that we regressed to the mean downward and the other team advanced to the mean upward? Is is just random coincidence that it happened 7 or 8 times this year? Do we lack a killer instinct? Did the other team figure out what we were doing well?
It may be that you can't really assess blame in any one spot.
Minutes played by top 3 players, pretty similar. The only guy that may have been affected by fatigue, would be Kendall, who has played a bunch of minutes. We had some possessions where Miami dominated the offensive board, some of that may have just been that the ball bounced off the front of the rim, and they were terrible at putting the ball back in the basket, so wound up with 4 attempts. We did get some defensive rebounds in the closing minutes.
The biggie may have been the incredible number of fouls called against us in second half, and unusually good foul shooting for Miami. They were 23 for 28 in second half. If they hit their usual percentage, we probably win.
TJ looked very comfortable playing against their bigs. A little mystified he got only 24 minutes, while Deion got 26 minutes. Terry Allen just looks awesome at both ends of court. Not a great game for our little guards. Great players, but I hope the two small guard experiment is over for good.
It's a long wait till next season. Hopefully, Chandler, Paul, Julius, Kwhan, and Marshall, are able to make major contributions, and this team can exceed expectations.
The biggie may have been the incredible number of fouls called against us in second half, and unusually good foul shooting for Miami. They were 23 for 28 in second half. If they hit their usual percentage, we probably win.
TJ looked very comfortable playing against their bigs. A little mystified he got only 24 minutes, while Deion got 26 minutes. Terry Allen just looks awesome at both ends of court. Not a great game for our little guards. Great players, but I hope the two small guard experiment is over for good.
It's a long wait till next season. Hopefully, Chandler, Paul, Julius, Kwhan, and Marshall, are able to make major contributions, and this team can exceed expectations.
I would be shocked if the five guys you mentioned get a total of 20 minutes a game next year on average, TB. I don't think Friendshuh, Johnson or Diekvoss will play much at all. Jury is out on Wood. Fore is the one guy out of that I am expecting to get a solid 10 minutes a game.
kneepad - you are 100% correct. I think it is very easy to blame the coach since he is the head of the program. It takes no understanding of the game, no learned observations, and no consideration of the circumstances to blame the coach. Anyone can do it whenever he/she wants. Sometimes coaches contribute to losses and deserve what they get. Sometimes teams get outplayed and lose. But in the end, blaming the coach is very easy to do and if you don't have anything else or don't understand the game then it is what you do - especially on an anonymous message board where everyone is a genius.
I am very proud of the team and Coach and the great job he did this years because I am a fan. I like Coach Mooney and think he is a very good coach
I like that coach Mooney did make some of the adjustments as outlined by our Euro coaching friend on this board. I think we really played well the last 2 months, it seems that Mooney has been very good at at having the team playing its best in mid Feb. in conference play. Would be interested to see Mooney's record against the other coaches strictly in A10 play during his tenure. I think it would be good. I would like to see us come out of the gate faster each year. It seems that we have struggled with this the last four years, and I believe even in our sweet 16 season, but may be wrong on that one. I do think that the road woes have been a pain point. That may be a recruiting thing. I just got done coaching a group of 8th graders that loved to play in the other teams gym and kick their butts - the coach had very little to do with that
. Kevin Smith, Ryan Butler, Gonzo, KA, Geriot and on were these types of players. Not sure the Spiders had enough players with that mentality, and maybe that is very hard to determine at the h.s. level, and you are limited by getting the best player you can get, not many perfect players out there. I do think that maybe we need to recruit that guy that doesn't seem to be a perfect fit, but brings that motor and toughness - again Smitty comes to mind. Hassan Martin at URI is a guy that probably does not look like a fit for our system - but is a huge difference maker and impacts the game in a variety of ways. All in all, the players and coaches did a great job to fight through early struggles and finish the year strong.
Have to give Mooney some props for being more flexible than usual this season in tweaking and adjusting the system for in-game, opponents, etc. He had the guys playing very well over the last two months or so. One or two more wins over bottom-feeders and we would have made the dance this year, as it was, we were closer than I thought we would be.
We do have to figure out the trend of playing well in the first half, then wilting down the stretch. I thought it might have been a matter of conditioning early in the season, but I think there was probably more to it than that.
Looking forward to next year, we should have all the pieces in place for an NCAA run.
We do have to figure out the trend of playing well in the first half, then wilting down the stretch. I thought it might have been a matter of conditioning early in the season, but I think there was probably more to it than that.
Looking forward to next year, we should have all the pieces in place for an NCAA run.
Yet again, with a big lead UR played not to lose. And again, UR did. I do not like CM's coaching and inability to adjust in game. This loss is solely on him and his coaching philosophy. As long as he remains inflexible, mediocrity is our home. And the NIT is a tournament for the mediocre.
I think you get 30mins per game out of TA/TJ/SDJ/TD/ANO (factoring all together). That leaves 50 minutes of time to spread to other guys. If Khwan gets 10, and DT gets 25, that's only 15 other minutes. Not a lot to feed those other fellas. Frankly, that feels like a good problem considering how short our bench was at times this year.
I guess the voting is done. CM needs to adjust more. Without question I agree. Also close games usually produce keys couple plays down the stretch. In my mind the biggest play in the game was with scored tied at 55 after the 3PT basket with 2:00 to play. CM doesn't call a TO leaving 2 players in there who are offensively challenged. Poor guys are scared to shoot during normal time and now you expect them to produce at this critical point in the game. Plenty of TOs in his pocket.
Well what happened? TD gets caught up in the air along the baseline and almost gets pass intercepted that TJ catches at the top of the circle and KO did get a good look at the basket but shot didn't fall. AST goes down and scores and up 57-55 and now a TO. Now the TO. Wonderful!
CM didn't give his team the highest probability to score on offense on that possession. As people have stated lots here, you were going 3 against 5. And compounding it in this situation, you have players that you hope don't get fouled that in most instances you hope to get at least 2 FT if not a basket.
Well what happened? TD gets caught up in the air along the baseline and almost gets pass intercepted that TJ catches at the top of the circle and KO did get a good look at the basket but shot didn't fall. AST goes down and scores and up 57-55 and now a TO. Now the TO. Wonderful!
CM didn't give his team the highest probability to score on offense on that possession. As people have stated lots here, you were going 3 against 5. And compounding it in this situation, you have players that you hope don't get fouled that in most instances you hope to get at least 2 FT if not a basket.
so your example of CM's mistake of not taking a TO is a possession where Kendall got an open look at a 3 but missed?
offensively, I don't see adjustments that I would have made. our three best shooters got open looks but missed. I'm happy with a possession that gets them a good shot, and I think most of their shots were good shots. normally they hit a few more of those.
Eh, people vent different ways. Some blame the coach, while others blame the posters blaming the coach. Nothing unique
Not that it matters now, as it may cause unnecessary controversy,but I'd love to see a statisticial breakdown of our guys individual fg and ft percentage this season, first 10 min of the game vs the last 10 minutes. It would be quite eye opening, imo.
Not that it matters now, as it may cause unnecessary controversy,but I'd love to see a statisticial breakdown of our guys individual fg and ft percentage this season, first 10 min of the game vs the last 10 minutes. It would be quite eye opening, imo.
Not sure what dictionary you are using to define "mediocre," but mine says "...of middling quality; neither good nor bad; ordinary..." There are 351 Division 1 college teams so, by definition, the middle third would be considered mediocre. Since 98 teams play in the NCAA and NIT tournaments, that places UR in the top 28% of teams. Again, by definition, not mediocre. Since this is a forum of opinions, you may blame whomever you wish for the loss. Personally, I blame the team managers as they seemed a step slow in getting the stools out during time outs robbing our players of precious seconds of time off their feet. Or perhaps the water bottles weren't available quickly enough causing dehydration. The bottom line is we lost the game because:
1. We couldn't match them on the boards in the second half.
2. We could not stop their one-on-one moves and the miracle shots they seemed to make on their drives in the second half.
3. We could not make an open shot in the second half.
4. We could not make crucial free throws in the second half.
I commend the team for getting their act together after a rocky start to the season. After all, we finished 9-2 in our last 11 games. In the big picture, there are only 4 teams in Division 1 that are real happy at the end of the season and they are the winners of the 4 tournaments. Everyone else basically lost their last game.
Thanks, KA for 4 great years of basketball and best of luck in whatever you decide to do after you graduate. I know that you will be successful. Thanks Coach Mooney for a 21 win season and some exciting basketball including two wins over VCU. I can't wait for next year.
1. We couldn't match them on the boards in the second half.
2. We could not stop their one-on-one moves and the miracle shots they seemed to make on their drives in the second half.
3. We could not make an open shot in the second half.
4. We could not make crucial free throws in the second half.
I commend the team for getting their act together after a rocky start to the season. After all, we finished 9-2 in our last 11 games. In the big picture, there are only 4 teams in Division 1 that are real happy at the end of the season and they are the winners of the 4 tournaments. Everyone else basically lost their last game.
Thanks, KA for 4 great years of basketball and best of luck in whatever you decide to do after you graduate. I know that you will be successful. Thanks Coach Mooney for a 21 win season and some exciting basketball including two wins over VCU. I can't wait for next year.
Would also be interested in that data Huntsman.
Anyone who professes not to see a pattern of late game collapse seemingly knows little about the game or is willfully blind. In the view of many Spider fans, repetitive collapse is the principal culprit that kept this team from the NCAA tournament.
The legitimate question is: what is causing this problem? Unlike some others, I respect the fact that everyone can have their own belief as to why the collapse occurs. It even appears as though a few believe that the continuing collapse occurs by coincidence. Believe what you will.
Albert Einstein famously defined "Insanity as: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."
I will offer that some astute fans suffer from what they recognize as coaching "insanity," which has nothing to do with vitriolic blame.
Anyone who professes not to see a pattern of late game collapse seemingly knows little about the game or is willfully blind. In the view of many Spider fans, repetitive collapse is the principal culprit that kept this team from the NCAA tournament.
The legitimate question is: what is causing this problem? Unlike some others, I respect the fact that everyone can have their own belief as to why the collapse occurs. It even appears as though a few believe that the continuing collapse occurs by coincidence. Believe what you will.
Albert Einstein famously defined "Insanity as: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."
I will offer that some astute fans suffer from what they recognize as coaching "insanity," which has nothing to do with vitriolic blame.
A deeper bench would help in late game scenarios. Tiredness which resulted in diminished performance was a factor in many of our games.
Homer, I mean this as a serious question, not to be a jerk, but what should the team have done differently? Is your comment that we should have adjusted differently in game to avoid losses or is it a larger statement that keeping our coach and expecting better results are incongruent?
I guess I would argue that the team did do something differently down the stretch to go 9-2 after starting 13-12. So that's a macro-level adjustment that got us different results.
If I were to make one recommendation, it's that we can't have 2 non-scorers on the floor, regardless of our O or D state. Doesn't mean that we need 4 or 5 double-digit scorers, but I think the threat to score has to be there.
This is a famously misattributed quote. Einstein never said that, it is a quote from an alcoholics anonymous pamphlet. Mooney is a good coach for our program. Over the last 8 seasons Mooney has averaged over 21 wins, has no losing seasons, and only won less than 19 games once. We were on the bubble or in the NCAAs in 4 of the last 6 years, and without injuries we could very well have made the NCAAs either last year or this year.
If we are in the conversation for an at large bid ~70% of the time why would we throw away our coach? That is insanity.
This post was edited on 3/25 4:59 PM by fan2011
Mr. TBone, Appreciate the fact that you are respectful and enjoy debate. To answer your question, I offer a few things to consider - not in rank order:
1) Stop taking the air out of the ball at the 8-12 minute mark. The specifics as to why this is a problem have been discussed previously. Playing not to lose often results in snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.
2) Many Coaches like to limit possessions in the last 1-3 minutes, this is a game-by-game situational decision. It should not be an unchangeable strategy that begins as early as the 12 minute mark.
3) Run offense from the inside out. Terry Allen & T.J. Cline on the block should be the first options. Repetitive success inside will cause defense to adjust and subsequently soften up future 3-point shot for all.
4) Do not change the inside out strategy in the 2nd half. I saw this happen repeatedly this year, and it helped fuel stagnant offense and late collapse.
5) When offense struggles, go to more of a two-man game. Anthony plus Allen or Cline on one side together everybody else cleared out, gave UR a VERY good chance to score and/or get fouled.
6) Rebound. Issue well discussed. Coach responsibility to improve.
7) Limit the offense defense substitution strategy. Again, there is a place for it in specific strategic situations. Since it is not possible to switch players every single possession, continuously trying to offense-defense for long stretches tends to cause the wrong combination of players to be on the floor for the wrong situations.
8) All players have value. Limit extended playing time of those who simply are not an offensive threat. Do not put the team in a situation where they are playing 2.5 against 5 for extended minutes. Matchups and situations yes, primary players, no.
9) Trust bench. Court time is what makes players develop. If you don't plan to use them (trust) then they should not have been recruited. Every recruit at this level has skills (that obviously vary) game skills are developed on the floor. Zero to 2-3 minutes a game from the beginning of a career is a Coach creating his own problem.
10) Stop taking players out of game as a strategy when they score. I have no idea why this occurs, but I see it often. This is related to # 7 above. Most players are not instant offense microwave scorers (though Anthony & Cline do it better than many). For most players the chance of future good play improves after they experience success - not the other way around. This is especially true for pure shooters.
Many other things could be discussed. All are free to disagree.
This is more than enough to put the team in the NCAA tournament.
1) Stop taking the air out of the ball at the 8-12 minute mark. The specifics as to why this is a problem have been discussed previously. Playing not to lose often results in snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.
2) Many Coaches like to limit possessions in the last 1-3 minutes, this is a game-by-game situational decision. It should not be an unchangeable strategy that begins as early as the 12 minute mark.
3) Run offense from the inside out. Terry Allen & T.J. Cline on the block should be the first options. Repetitive success inside will cause defense to adjust and subsequently soften up future 3-point shot for all.
4) Do not change the inside out strategy in the 2nd half. I saw this happen repeatedly this year, and it helped fuel stagnant offense and late collapse.
5) When offense struggles, go to more of a two-man game. Anthony plus Allen or Cline on one side together everybody else cleared out, gave UR a VERY good chance to score and/or get fouled.
6) Rebound. Issue well discussed. Coach responsibility to improve.
7) Limit the offense defense substitution strategy. Again, there is a place for it in specific strategic situations. Since it is not possible to switch players every single possession, continuously trying to offense-defense for long stretches tends to cause the wrong combination of players to be on the floor for the wrong situations.
8) All players have value. Limit extended playing time of those who simply are not an offensive threat. Do not put the team in a situation where they are playing 2.5 against 5 for extended minutes. Matchups and situations yes, primary players, no.
9) Trust bench. Court time is what makes players develop. If you don't plan to use them (trust) then they should not have been recruited. Every recruit at this level has skills (that obviously vary) game skills are developed on the floor. Zero to 2-3 minutes a game from the beginning of a career is a Coach creating his own problem.
10) Stop taking players out of game as a strategy when they score. I have no idea why this occurs, but I see it often. This is related to # 7 above. Most players are not instant offense microwave scorers (though Anthony & Cline do it better than many). For most players the chance of future good play improves after they experience success - not the other way around. This is especially true for pure shooters.
Many other things could be discussed. All are free to disagree.
This is more than enough to put the team in the NCAA tournament.
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