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Questions about Patriot League rules (redshirts, etc.)

Gallipoli

Graduate Assistant
Aug 20, 2017
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The Doghouse
I changed the topic of this thread to focus on additional questions.

On page 31, at Par 7.4(e) of the Patriot League policy manual expressly prohibits the use of Athletic redshirts. Exceptions to this rule do not seem to exist. Am I reading this correctly?
Does this mean our student athletes who have a redshirt will lose their eligibility?

 
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That’s the policy for this current academic/athletic year. I think next year’s policy isn’t officially out yet. Original JOC article referenced redshirting saying,

“Richmond will continue with 63 scholarships and will keep redshirting players, said Huesman.”

I imagine this is something we discussed before making the move to PL for football as non-medical redshirting is something we heavily rely on.

 
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That’s the policy for this current academic/athletic year. I think next year’s policy isn’t officially out yet. Original JOC article referenced redshirting saying,

“Richmond will continue with 63 scholarships and will keep redshirting players, said Huesman.”

I imagine this is something we discussed before making the move to PL for football as non-medical redshirting is something we heavily rely on.


That’s not a direct quote. Interpretation by JOC. In fact I think instead of “will keep” he should have said “wants to keep” redshirting.

I’d like to have more direct clarity from UR and/or Pat League. It was asked by JOC in original presser but ignored. The answer we got was more philosophizing not that non med redshirting was allowed.

Think this part from different article goes into it a little deeper…

Heppel said the Patriot League does have fifth-year players. That supports Richmond’s desire to redshirt mostly younger Spiders on a regular basis. “Richmond was obviously comfortable with our approach,” she said.

UR coach Russ Huesman made it clear Tuesday that redshirting is a major component of Richmond’s program.

“Recruiting high school players, redshirting them, developing them, bringing them back for their fifth years, all of those things are extremely important here, and we want to continue to do that,” Huesman said.


Clearly our desire. And Pat League does have 5th years. tho a little disingenuous by commish to say that if they only come from medical or exceptions not normal athletic development ones.

Honestly I thought they already allowed regular redshirting but bylaws explicitly say otherwise. Also Heppel comment re “comfortable with our approach” implies the Pat League approach was different than what we’re used to.

Maybe bylaws r changing as I agree I’m sure it was discussed. It’s clear what we desire. But I’m skeptical we can operate exactly as we want re: shirts. Idk. It deserves more explanation. Also, how we adhere to the league’s Academic Index stuff is a separate concern too.
 
It was discussed on the Lehigh forum. One has to admit, the Lehigh fans are smart. We wouldn't get this level of thought from a JMU fan.

I don’t pretend to know that much about the redshirt rules, other than it allows a student athlete to postpone his four years of eligibility to gain strength and experience as a member of the team. We do it all the time in wrestling.

My very rough count of our football roster shows we have 5 fifth year players, and of course no players listed as having red shirt eligibility. Based on those listed on Richmond’s roster as red shirts, they have 6 fifth year seniors, 16 fourth year juniors, 15 third year sophs, and 19 second year freshmen. They red shirt more than half their roster. Those numbers (plus Richmond being very good) gets us to easily be 10 to 12 point under dogs. Win this and Coach Cahill should be in the running for FCS coach of the year, if he isn’t already.

Going forward it’ll be interesting to see how many of our current freshman class take this as a red shirt year.

 
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In fact, I will go a step further. This is the financial reason for switching to the Patriot. President Hallock saw this as an opportunity to cut costs. He saw this as a cost cutting move. If this is true he and his administration have lied to everyone.

Nothing else makes sense.
 
The published policy says otherwise. The rule is clear cut. Why would they waive a rule for for UR, which hurts the rest of the league?
Maybe changing the league rule since ours makes more sense and allows for better player development.
 
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In fact, I will go a step further. This is the financial reason for switching to the Patriot. President Hallock saw this as an opportunity to cut costs. He saw this as a cost cutting move. If this is true he and his administration have lied to everyone.

Nothing else makes sense.
That's not what the man said. Why do you stir the pot? If it was strictly a cost cutting move we would have stayed put. It's a bus ride to Campbell, NCAT, Elon, Towson, W&M and Hampton. We obviously weren't playing the northern schools on a consistent basis and therein lies the problem. You see what a diet of that bunch gets you.
 
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Have you spoken to anyone in the administration about this? i have, and I was assured we can continue to redshirt.
Has there been an official policy change? Why would the rest of the league make a concession to UR that places the rest of the schools at a disadvantage?

Verbal assurances in negotiations are not valid, unless they are accompanied by written policy changes, or at least written statements. These are fair questions.
 
The UR model for Redshirting makes the most sense and is best for the team and the players.
I cannot imagine that there was not some type of written agreement or change to the existing policy
before UR committed to the league change. I am curious to how often the transfer portal is used
by the PL? Is it mostly Ivy League grad transfers or all over the place.
 
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Has there been an official policy change? Why would the rest of the league make a concession to UR that places the rest of the schools at a disadvantage?

Verbal assurances in negotiations are not valid, unless they are accompanied by written policy changes, or at least written statements. These are fair questions.
The policy you shared was for this academic/athletic year. It appears that it will likely change for the 2025-2026 year.
 
Has there been an official policy change? Why would the rest of the league make a concession to UR that places the rest of the schools at a disadvantage?

Verbal assurances in negotiations are not valid, unless they are accompanied by written policy changes, or at least written statements. These are fair questions.
I can understand your concern, but I can only share what I have done at this point.
 
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It appears that graduate transfers in football are forbidden in the Patriot League. Why is this the case? Will this rule change when UR enters the league?
 
It seems that UR could be facing a deficit, if we lose players and cannot replace them. If we do have to replace them, will we forced to take inferior or unprepared players?
 
There are the same number of eligible college players. Just reshuffling the deck. Yes, it sucks, but we have to play the hand dealt and not the one we would want.

With FBS rosters capped at 105, there will be plenty of FBS players moving to FCS. Select wisely and we will be ok. Not as if the Spiders are facing headwinds different from every other FCS program.
 
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It won't.

I've heard the Pat League teams football admissions align a little more closely to regular student admission as stipulated by the Academic Index, more than it does at UR. But it might not be a big gap idk. And possibly hard to regulate anyway. I'm no expert on what goes into the Academic Index exactly. Question for SF.
 
Academic Index... per Google...

The Academic Index (AI) is a numerical score that admissions officers use to assess a student's academic qualifications for admission to selective colleges, including Ivy League schools. The AI is calculated from a student's GPA, class rank, and SAT or ACT scores, and is used to help admissions officers quickly decide which students to consider for admission.


The AI is calculated by weighting each of these components on a scale of 80, and then adding the scores together to get a total AI between 60 and 240. The AI is then assigned a rank or tier, which varies by school, but is usually between 1 (lowest) and 9 (highest).


The AI was originally created to ensure that student-athletes were close enough to the average non-athlete applicant to be admitted. However, the formula has been modified over time to make the process more streamlined. The current formula adds together a student's highest SAT Evidence-Based Reading and Writing score and Math score (or converted ACT) and their Converted GPA Score (CGS).


The AI is an important factor in the admissions process, but it's not the only one. Each college classifies AI scores differently, and the admissions process for student athletes can vary from school to school.
 
Would expect our AD already knows the answers to the questions/concerns raised. Definitive answers have not been made public though.

The concerns are basic issues that should have been raised and responses vetted relative to impact on current Spider program before we made the conference leap. Hopefully, we did our due diligence, if not, inclined to move from OK with the conference move to WTF.
 
This information was on a need to know basis and, unless you are a big donor, you don't need to know. (BTW,clueless I am)
 
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Bump. Nothing definite....

It says pretty clearly that athletic redshirts are not allowed. At paragraph 7.4.e.

The same bylaws address graduate transfers at 7.4.f.1, But it doesn't clearly state that graduate transfers from another school are allowed.

https://patriotleague.org/documents/2024...1_2025.pdf
It also says the institution can grant the extra/5th year as long as not graduated and pursuing degree(s). subpara d.
 
Let’s see what the bylaws say next season. Huesman did say they want/intend to still athletic redshirt but whether they’ll be allowed to is something else imo.

But I think the bylaws r pretty clear on this subject right now. I also think of Pat League commish comments who basically said Richmond knew the league’s model going in. Implying we conformed not the reverse. I have to think it was discussed tho & now there’s another backer in W&M. Any good player isn’t using the 5th year at UR or W&M anyway these days as long as they can get $ from FBS that grad year. But will be interesting to look at 25-26 bylaws & see what’s different.
 
It also says the institution can grant the extra/5th year as long as not graduated and pursuing degree(s). subpara d.
From the policy, I can find no option where the PL will allow a graduate transfer (who has finished his degree) with redshirt eligibility. They would have to gut this entire policy. Am I wrong?

My summary:
From the language below, you have 4 years to finish, unless you are injured or suffer a hardship, in which case you can finish with a graduate degree from the institution from which you graduated with your college degree. (Scenario #2). You can get be a transfer if your degree requires an additional year of study toward a baccalaureate degree (Scenario #3).

Actual Language:

d. All students participating in intercollegiate athletics must be enrolled full-time and must be making normal academic progress in an academic program leading to a first baccalaureate degree. Full-time status is based on the student-athletes’ level of academic work (undergraduate or graduate) and the definition of full-time enrollment for that academic level at the applicable institution.

e. Normal Years of Eligibility. [Council, December 2010] A student-athlete shall complete their seasons of participation within four calendar years from the beginning of the semester or quarter in which the student-athlete first registered for a minimum full-time program of studies in a collegiate institution. “Athletic redshirting” (holding a student out of competition as an underclassman for the express purpose of saving a year of NCAA eligibility for a fifth year of enrollment) is prohibited. Patriot League eligibility policies apply to all League and non League competition. For purposes of starting the count of time under the four-year rule, a student-athlete shall be considered registered at a collegiate institution (domestic or foreign) when the student-athlete initially registers in a regular term (semester or quarter) of an academic year for a minimum full-time program of studies, as determined by the institution, and attends the student's first day of classes for that term.

f. Waivers....

A. Scenario #1: waiver may be granted by an institution due to medical reasons.

B. Scenario #2: a waiver may be granted by an institution due to circumstances beyond control.
1. Undergraduate. An extension of undergraduate Patriot League eligibility may be granted by the institution’s Policy Committee representative to a student who does not use a season of competition as a result of a serious injury and/or illness OR has previously been granted a NCAA Hardship Waiver by the League office (NCAABylaw 12.8.4).

2. Post-Baccalaureate....
the institution’s Policy Committee representative may grant an exception to enable a student to compete as a graduate student in their first year after earning the first baccalaureate degree. In order for such an exception to be granted, the student must meet ALL of the following criteria:

a. Have NCAA eligibility remaining due to medical reasons,
1. A life-threatening or incapacitating injury or illness suffered by a memberof the student-athlete’s immediate family OR
2 Extreme financial difficulties experienced by an individual upon who thestudent-athlete is legally dependent OR
3. Natural disasters

AND

b. Choose to pursue a graduate degree at the League institution from which they graduated; AND

c. Present sound academic rationale or documentation related to enrollment in a post-baccalaureate degree program.

C. Scenario #3: a waiver may be granted due to transfer. The institution’s Policy Committee representative may grant an exception to transfer students whose academic programs require a ninth semester/fifth year from the date of their first college matriculation (see “Normal Years of Eligibility” above) toward a baccalaureate degree for athletic competition in the ninth semester/fifth year of undergraduate work.

... Plus there are others...
 
Let’s see what the bylaws say next season. Huesman did say they want/intend to still athletic redshirt but whether they’ll be allowed to is something else imo.

But I think the bylaws r pretty clear on this subject right now. I also think of Pat League commish comments who basically said Richmond knew the league’s model going in. Implying we conformed not the reverse. I have to think it was discussed tho & now there’s another backer in W&M. Any good player isn’t using the 5th year at UR or W&M anyway these days as long as they can get $ from FBS that grad year. But will be interesting to look at 25-26 bylaws & see what’s different.
I cited statistics from post #4 above. Almost half of our team has redshirted.
 
Go back and read 31, reference was to players NOT yet completed education at same school, decision up to school, not league.

Scenario #4: a waiver may be granted due to normal academic progress. The institution’s Policy Committee representative may grant an exception for a student that completes the first baccalaureate in less than eight semesters of full-time study and continues full-time enrollment in a second baccalaureate or graduate degree program at the original certifying Patriot League institution. See Article 7.4.d. [Council, June 2002]
 
Go back and read 31, reference was to players NOT yet completed education at same school, decision up to school, not league.

Scenario #4: a waiver may be granted due to normal academic progress. The institution’s Policy Committee representative may grant an exception for a student that completes the first baccalaureate in less than eight semesters of full-time study and continues full-time enrollment in a second baccalaureate or graduate degree program at the original certifying Patriot League institution. See Article 7.4.d. [Council, June 2002]

Is this common at UR? Have to think very rare.
 
PL to Richmond- we’d love for you to join our conference. Richmond to the PL,
we’d be very interested, but some of your bylaws go against our policies.
PL to Richmond, I think we can work this out. Will you encourage W & M to join
too?.
 
I mean, in this day and age, why are we even having a discussion about redshirts? Any player that we get/develop that's worth a damn isn't staying 5 years. You guys are living in the past.
 
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