Preseason games?

[Eight Legger]

Nothing against Harris, but he shouldn't be anything more than a 5-7 minute guy for us if we have any aspirations of doing something this year. He can't score. Stats don't lie. If he could, he'd have averaged more than 5.7 a game in four years at *checks notes* Western Carolina. It's not like they had some super studs ahead of him hogging all the scoring opportunities. He also isn't much of a rebounder (3 per game in 4 years). So I'm not sure what kind of role we could have for him other than placeholder.

If Mooney got him because he thinks he's a "good rebounder," I'm concerned about his ability to identify what that actually is.

 

[spiderman]

Nothing against Harris, but he shouldn't be anything more than a 5-7 minute guy for us if we have any aspirations of doing something this year. He can't score. Stats don't lie. If he could, he'd have averaged more than 5.7 a game in four years at *checks notes* Western Carolina. It's not like they had some super studs ahead of him hogging all the scoring opportunities. He also isn't much of a rebounder (3 per game in 4 years). So I'm not sure what kind of role we could have for him other than placeholder.

If Mooney got him because he thinks he's a "good rebounder," I'm concerned about his ability to identify what that actually is.

glue guy. defensive specialist.
imagine if we ever started a guy over 75 games who averaged under 5 ppg?
(checks notes)

 

[VT4700]

Harris got 6 or more rebounds 18 times at WCU, including games of 11, 11, 10, and 10. I would call that being a good rebounder. And, if he is one of our better defenders, at 6'7 with quickness and athletic ability, I could definitely see some 10+ minute games for him.

 

[Eight Legger]

I'm rooting for him, but we know what he is after four years in a league slightly worse than the A10. Hope he can come in and give us 7 great minutes of defense a night.

 

[8legs1dream]

glue guy. defensive specialist.
imagine if we ever started a guy over 75 games who averaged under 5 ppg?
(checks notes)

well the guy you are referencing did it in the A10 at least, not whatever conference Western Carolina is in. I think that was a big part of EL's point

 

[KE Spider]

They had a 5th…

I'm working on one.

 

[VT4700]

I'm rooting for him, but we know what he is after four years in a league slightly worse than the A10. Hope he can come in and give us 7 great minutes of defense a night.

I don't think anyone is thinking big minutes for him, so maybe we agree more than disagree here. He could be a very valuable piece giving us 7 solid minutes a night, with maybe some 10+ minute games sprinkled in like I said earlier.

 

[Eight Legger]

Yeah, if we're talking about Garrett, we could live with his lack of regular scoring because he was a true stopper inside and blocked a ton of shots. I don't think Harris is anything like that, but I hope to be proven wrong.

 

[kneepadmckinney]

I think in non-conference, we'll see a lot more run for 9th and 10th guys. It'll shorten up to 8 in conference most likely. Harris will get his chance. As we all know, it won't matter how great he is on defense if he turns the ball over once or twice when he's in there.

 

[97spiderfan]

I think in non-conference, we'll see a lot more run for 9th and 10th guys. It'll shorten up to 8 in conference most likely. Harris will get his chance. As we all know, it won't matter how great he is on defense if he turns the ball over once or twice when he's in there.

Truth. Been that way for 18 years now. So, for any of these freshman/Harris, you had better bring your A game during the non-conference, which means making plays and not just passing the ball around on offense, otherwise barring injury, you aren't likely to see much time.

 

[spiderman]

Yeah, if we're talking about Garrett, we could live with his lack of regular scoring because he was a true stopper inside and blocked a ton of shots. I don't think Harris is anything like that, but I hope to be proven wrong.

I was talking about Goose. very good athlete, very good defender, played a lot but scored less than 5 ppg. Harris may be even more athletic ... and longer.

 

[spiderman]

Harris will get his chance. As we all know, it won't matter how great he is on defense if he turns the ball over once or twice when he's in there.

that's the point. after the signing, Mooney mentioned him as a guy who doesn't turn the ball over. 0.6 turnovers per game last year in 26 mpg.

I'll wait to see him play but if he's a great athlete and defender who doesn't turn it over, why wouldn't Mooney play him? because he's a 30% career shooter from 3? most of our team shot around 30% from 3 last year.

 

[VT4700]

Truth. Been that way for 18 years now. So, for any of these freshman/Harris, you had better bring your A game during the non-conference, which means making plays and not just passing the ball around on offense, otherwise barring injury, you aren't likely to see much time.

It hasn't really been that way for 18 years. We have had plenty of freshman get good minutes from game 1. Usually, our upperclassmen will be better than our freshman at that time and give us a better chance to win, so it makes sense then for them to get the minutes, but when a freshman is good enough, he will get good minutes, even from game 1. The most recent one being Tyler, but plenty of others before that....Jacob, Grant, Buck, Nick, Terry Allen, ANO, and others. Maybe Tanner or another freshman could be that guy this year.

 

[SFspidur]

It hasn't really been that way for 18 years. We have had plenty of freshman get good minutes from game 1. Usually, our upperclassmen will be better than our freshman at that time and give us a better chance to win, so it makes sense then for them to get the minutes, but when a freshman is good enough, he will get good minutes, even from game 1. The most recent one being Tyler, but plenty of others before that....Jacob, Grant, Buck, Nick, Terry Allen, ANO, and others. Maybe Tanner or another freshman could be that guy this year.

97 wasn't saying freshmen can't get good minutes. He was just saying Mooney tends to shorten his bench in A-10 play, so if you're a new guy, you need to make an impact early in the season to earn your place in that shorter rotation. (Barring injuries of course.)

 

[VT4700]

that's the point. after the signing, Mooney mentioned him as a guy who doesn't turn the ball over. 0.6 turnovers per game last year in 26 mpg.

I'll wait to see him play but if he's a great athlete and defender who doesn't turn it over, why wouldn't Mooney play him? because he's a 30% career shooter from 3? most of our team shot around 30% from 3 last year.

The likely answer would be because of who is ahead of him. Goose played a lot because he was usually our best option at guard. Harris might get some minutes, but also could end up behind quite a few guys in the rotation. Doesn't mean he is not a good player. Without trying to start anything about Dji, that has been my point about him for 3 years now....just behind too many guys to get big minutes. But, because of defense, I could see both getting some decent minutes with some 10+ minutes games here and there.

A lot could be based on how the game is going. If we are behind by around 6+ points in the 2nd half, we need offense on the floor, and like EL said, Harris hasn't provided much of that, and neither has Dji. You also mentioned turnovers, and Dji, in addition to finding some offense, will have to eliminate some.of the careless ones to get more time this year.

It looks like our top 6 is set, with Roche being in there because we have to have his shooting out there a lot. After that, we will see. Maybe now it's Dji and Walz, but we have some guys with talent who might be ready to pass them sooner rather than later in the rotation.

 

[VT4700]

97 wasn't saying freshmen can't get good minutes. He was just saying Mooney tends to shorten his bench in A-10 play, so if you're a new guy, you need to make an impact early in the season to earn your place in that shorter rotation. (Barring injuries of course.)

Maybe I misread his point. Sorry to 97 if I did. I see what you mean here, and agree with what you said and agree with Mooney doing this.

 

[VT4700]

Just to follow up on my earlier post, it's not just Dji amd Harris I am talking about. I think we have enough capable guys this year where if you don't bring enough offense, you might not get a lot of minutes.

 

[8legs1dream]

ChatGPT4700 strikes again

 

[spiderman]

The likely answer would be because of who is ahead of him.

agreed.

I know we disagree about positions, but I only see Bigelow ahead of him at big forward.
I think Mooney sees Noyes as a small forward ... but Mooney might play him at times as the biggest forward on the floor to get more time for others on the wing if they're playing well. I think Soulis is a 5. I don't think Mooney will play him or Walz along with Quinn at the same time.

while I like Bigelow's game, he did shoot 26.5% from 3 last year. not sure he should be penciled in for over 30 mpg.

 

[97spiderfan]

97 wasn't saying freshmen can't get good minutes. He was just saying Mooney tends to shorten his bench in A-10 play, so if you're a new guy, you need to make an impact early in the season to earn your place in that shorter rotation. (Barring injuries of course.)

Correct. And I am going to go on record that I think one of the freshman busts into the 8 man rotation this year. I don't know who that freshman is but that prediction more in some of the incomplete games of our existing upper classmen (Bigelow shooting issues, Hunt shooting issues, Roche is only a shooter, Dji shooting issues).

And Mooney can spin this as a transitional year and as such, he will need to showcase a freshman or two to build his case for "just wait until next year". So, one or more of these freshman will get a chance in my opinion. The key for the freshman is to maximize this chance is to be aggressive on offense and just not make a fool of yourself on defense.

I am more on the EL side of things in regards to Harris. He is a 5th year senior who hasn't really shown a stand out skill in 4 years at a lower program. Mooney giving him a lot of time in a year where we are predicted to a bottom tier A-10 team, makes little sense. All things being equal, you give that time to your freshman who are the future of the program.

 

[VT4700]

agreed.

I know we disagree about positions, but I only see Bigelow ahead of him at big forward.
I think Mooney sees Noyes as a small forward ... but Mooney might play him at times as the biggest forward on the floor to get more time for others on the wing if they're playing well. I think Soulis is a 5. I don't think Mooney will play him or Walz along with Quinn at the same time.

while I like Bigelow's game, he did shoot 26.5% from 3 last year. not sure he should be penciled in for over 30 mpg.

I think Bigs is one of our best and most important players, definitely our best rebounder, and as much as I like the 3 pointer and think it is hugely important, I have to have Bigs out there for 30+ minutes.

 

[VT4700]

Correct. And I am going to go on record that I think one of the freshman busts into the 8 man rotation this year. I don't know who that freshman is but that prediction more in some of the incomplete games of our existing upper classmen (Bigelow shooting issues, Hunt shooting issues, Roche is only a shooter, Dji shooting issues).

And Mooney can spin this as a transitional year and as such, he will need to showcase a freshman or two to build his case for "just wait until next year". So, one or more of these freshman will get a chance in my opinion. The key for the freshman is to maximize this chance is to be aggressive on offense and just not make a fool of yourself on defense.

I am more on the EL side of things in regards to Harris. He is a 5th year senior who hasn't really shown a stand out skill in 4 years at a lower program. Mooney giving him a lot of time in a year where we are predicted to a bottom tier A-10 team, makes little sense. All things being equal, you give that time to your freshman who are the future of the program.

I could see Tanner being a top 8 guy

 

[SpiderTrap]

I think we have this conversation on the board every single year. We think every year we have this great depth, whether its Mooney will be able to play 10 guys, or if someone is not playing well - we got depth to replace them. But in reality - this never happens. What usually happens is on our better teams under Mooney - we have 3 guys who play 32 or more minutes a night, and then we have 2 guys right around 28. Then we have 3 subs, with the 8th man being low man on minutes - likely under 10 a game or less.

I have no issue with this formula - when you have good players, they should dominate the minutes. But I am not sure we have that this year - so maybe we will see more spread out minutes and deeper rotation. Or then again - we would settle into normal routine and follow the recipe above to probably a .500 record.

 

[97spiderfan]

I think we have this conversation on the board every single year. We think every year we have this great depth, whether its Mooney will be able to play 10 guys, or if someone is not playing well - we got depth to replace them. But in reality - this never happens. What usually happens is on our better teams under Mooney - we have 3 guys who play 32 or more minutes a night, and then we have 2 guys right around 28. Then we have 3 subs, with the 8th man being low man on minutes - likely under 10 a game or less.

I have no issue with this formula - when you have good players, they should dominate the minutes. But I am not sure we have that this year - so maybe we will see more spread out minutes and deeper rotation. Or then again - we would settle into normal routine and follow the recipe above to probably a .500 record.

I agree. Who are those 3 guys who are going to play 32 plus minutes a night. I think we can all agree King is going to be one. But after that?

Quinn? Mooney doesn't like to play his big's major minutes and not sure even if he did if Quinn could do it with his frame. Hunt, maybe, but he's got some holes in his game, plus playing 2 short guards major minutes is probably gonna lead to some issues. Bigelow is in foul trouble a lot with the way he plays the game. And then the huge issue is none of these guys has the pedigree of a Golden, Cayo, Sherod that would warrant such major minutes.

I just don't see anyone outside of King that Mooney can ride major minutes on this year on a consistent basis. It will leave more room for subs to get more time than in previous years.

 

[VT4700]

I think we have this conversation on the board every single year. We think every year we have this great depth, whether its Mooney will be able to play 10 guys, or if someone is not playing well - we got depth to replace them. But in reality - this never happens. What usually happens is on our better teams under Mooney - we have 3 guys who play 32 or more minutes a night, and then we have 2 guys right around 28. Then we have 3 subs, with the 8th man being low man on minutes - likely under 10 a game or less.

I have no issue with this formula - when you have good players, they should dominate the minutes. But I am not sure we have that this year - so maybe we will see more spread out minutes and deeper rotation. Or then again - we would settle into normal routine and follow the recipe above to probably a .500 record.

I see what you are saying, but I think most, if not all, teams will have their best players settled into a rotation. It would be pretty rare to have 10-12 or whatever guys play similar minutes. Players will separate themselves, whether they are stars and the guys below them are not quite at that level, or they are maybe a little above average and the guys below them are average.

I think what we discuss here is no different from what most other team's fans will discuss....which is who will play, who will get good minutes, who will get small minutes, starters, rotation guys, etc.

 

[VT4700]

I agree. Who are those 3 guys who are going to play 32 plus minutes a night. I think we can all agree King is going to be one. But after that?

Quinn? Mooney doesn't like to play his big's major minutes and not sure even if he did if Quinn could do it with his frame. Hunt, maybe, but he's got some holes in his game, plus playing 2 short guards major minutes is probably gonna lead to some issues. Bigelow is in foul trouble a lot with the way he plays the game. And then the huge issue is none of these guys has the pedigree of a Golden, Cayo, Sherod that would warrant such major minutes.

I just don't see anyone outside of King that Mooney can ride major minutes on this year on a consistent basis. It will leave more room for subs to get more time than in previous years.

King, definitely. After that, maybe Bigs, but good point about foul trouble. Plus, he is so active, which is a plus, but could lead to more breaks for him. After those 2, no one really has to have big minutes. We could still have a solid 8 man rotation spread out with minutes. Quinn should be at least 25. Noyes, Hunt, and Roche will depend on how well they play. This could lead to more subs early, but I still see a normal 8 man rotation getting most of the minutes, with maybe a couple extra guys getting some time for their defense.

 

[SpiderTrap]

I see what you are saying, but I think most, if not all, teams will have their best players settled into a rotation. It would be pretty rare to have 10-12 or whatever guys play similar minutes. Players will separate themselves, whether they are stars and the guys below them are not quite at that level, or they are maybe a little above average and the guys below them are average.

I think what we discuss here is no different from what most other team's fans will discuss....which is who will play, who will get good minutes, who will get small minutes, starters, rotation guys, etc.

I agree - I think its rare for team to go 10 deep and have the 10th guy playing close to 10 minutes a night. VCU comes to mind under Rhoades - and he went 9 deep with 8th guy getting 17 minutes and 9th guy getting 7 minutes.

What is different this year and I think will lend itself to more guys getting opportunities - is that I don't think we will be very good this year, probably around .500 and with many new pieces - it will take time to find that rotation. I could examples this year where a guy is in the 8 man rotation for a month or so, then because of poor play is replaced by someone else who get a chance in the rotation for a month or so. Also aided by the fact - we don't have those 3 studs we know will play 32+ minutes - that only opens more minutes for others.

 

[spiderman]

we had 1 guy average over 30 mpg last year in Burton.
the year before it was Burton and Gilyard.
in both of those cases, those are 2 guys that don't ever get tired AND they were the best players on the team.
I suspect King will be the only 30 minute man this year.

 

[brooklyn brownstone]

Sman, this is why I asked about Harris role and position yesterday vis a vis other players. I think there are guys ahead of him. I’ll grant you that some guys’ games will translate anywhere and their stats will be similar. But if he’s a glue guy on the wing, I see him behind Dji who has more upside. If he’s backing up the 4 I truly hope it’s only 3-4 mins per game at that spot. Goose played with 5 guys who could fill it up during his career and was a proven lockdown defender at the A10 level AND was the backup PG. he had a lot of responsibilities so I don’t see the comparison as apples to apples. So yeah, he’s gonna have to win my belief and if the scrimmage report lack of mention is an indication it may be an uphill battle.

 

[Eight Legger]

I was talking about Goose. very good athlete, very good defender, played a lot but scored less than 5 ppg. Harris may be even more athletic ... and longer.

Got it. Well, we had a losing season last year and that was probably part of the reason why -- not enough scoring. Same reason I don't think Harris can get many minutes if we're going to be a good team. He can play 30 a night if we suck.

 

[spiderman]

I'm not predicting Harris becomes a starter. haven't seen him yet. not sure what we're working with.
I'm expecting 10-15 mpg. I do think defense/athleticism translates. and I don't think Mooney recruited a guy with 77 starts to rot on the bench.

Bigelow started 16 of 66 games in the SoCon and averaged 6.8 ppg there in 19 mpg.
Harris started 77 of 122 games in the SoCon and averaged 5.7 ppg there in 24 mpg.
Harris has a defensive reputation. I'm not sure there's a huge difference between the two. same size guys, too.

those are the guys I have competing at the 4 though they could play together is both play well. if you want to add Noyes in that competition, I can see that even though he's starting at the 3 now. Noyes would be the reason Harris plays less than I expect. but not Dji. Dji is versatile at the 1, 2 and 3 spots. that's where he'll get his minutes. but he should never be the biggest forward on the floor.

 

[Eight Legger]

I think Harris was basically a one-year roster filler. Big guy, experienced, better than taking a high school kid who's not going to play, might fit certain roles and give us a few nice minutes a game, etc. I have no problem with that, as long as we aren't expecting him to be a difference-maker.

 

[spiderman]

I think Harris was basically a one-year roster filler. Big guy, experienced, better than taking a high school kid who's not going to play, might fit certain roles and give us a few nice minutes a game, etc. I have no problem with that, as long as we aren't expecting him to be a difference-maker.

one way or another, we'll find out soon.

 

[GKiller]

Correct. And I am going to go on record that I think one of the freshman busts into the 8 man rotation this year. I don't know who that freshman is but that prediction more in some of the incomplete games of our existing upper classmen (Bigelow shooting issues, Hunt shooting issues, Roche is only a shooter, Dji shooting issues).

And Mooney can spin this as a transitional year and as such, he will need to showcase a freshman or two to build his case for "just wait until next year". So, one or more of these freshman will get a chance in my opinion. The key for the freshman is to maximize this chance is to be aggressive on offense and just not make a fool of yourself on defense.

I am more on the EL side of things in regards to Harris. He is a 5th year senior who hasn't really shown a stand out skill in 4 years at a lower program. Mooney giving him a lot of time in a year where we are predicted to a bottom tier A-10 team, makes little sense. All things being equal, you give that time to your freshman who are the future of the program.

When u r a 19 year coach u should not have transitional years back to back. Last year was supposedly the transitional year. at least u could wrap your head around why saying that post Golden/Gilyard era. this year u can't.

& I've said that b4 on here too...I agree that the "just wait" PR campaign or however u want to spin it around the freshman could be coming.

Now I've always believed that u don't just punt on season. best players play. because nature of college ball is u have chance to the end & u position yourself for best chance even if out of at large. and better for culture of program imo. if not it could hurt player retention & also recruiting in the transfer market.

But if there was a year you'd see it, this could be it...if things go bad. Then watch out for the pumping up of the frosh...nextbestclass. Ideally 1 or more of the frosh r just really good and right away they earn that time. Or the vets r playing well.

 

[spiderman]

possibly, but as much as I like the class I don't see it unless there's an injury.
can't see the PGs breaking in with our older guards.
can't see Soulis getting much time with Quinn here.
I'm excited about Tanner, but there's a slew of wings he'd have to pass.

I think this class waits like Noyes did last year.

 

[SpiderDad75]

I think Mikel will play…think we got a steal here.

 

[spiderman]

I think Mikel will play…think we got a steal here.

I agree he's likely getting the few minutes behind King.
are you saying they might play together as well? small, but interesting backcourt.

 

[SpiderDad75]

I agree he's likely getting the few minutes behind King.
are you saying they might play together as well? small, but interesting backcourt.

Not sure if they play together but def think we see him.

 

[MrTbone]

that's the point. after the signing, Mooney mentioned him as a guy who doesn't turn the ball over. 0.6 turnovers per game last year in 26 mpg.

I'll wait to see him play but if he's a great athlete and defender who doesn't turn it over, why wouldn't Mooney play him? because he's a 30% career shooter from 3? most of our team shot around 30% from 3 last year.

Serious question: maybe he didn’t handle the ball very often?

 

[97spiderfan]

When u r a 19 year coach u should not have transitional years back to back.

To clarify, I completely agree. You should not have back to back transitional year with a coach of Mooney's tenure. I was just making the point that this is what they are going to feed us as the season progresses.