Apologies if this belongs in a different forum...
Damn, Coach. Well done.
Damn, Coach. Well done.
Mooney on Gonzalvez
- Thread starter ChoppinBroccoli
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I know a big part of David Gonzalvez's positive influence also came from Tim Hightower who got him
involved in FCA. That was a great and positive story we need to share everywhere.
involved in FCA. That was a great and positive story we need to share everywhere.
I blasted Mooney on the Rothstein thread for his inability to hype the program. But this is well done. Putting a personal face on this national issue.
The world needs to hear more stories like this right now. I think and fear everyone now is going to associate all cops with the actions of these "bad" cops, when I truly believe most cops are good and trying to help. Are their bad cops out there - of course there are. Just like there are bad teachers, bad employees, bad bosses, etc. But I don't think they make up the majority. Now how many "bad" ones are out there - who knows - but I would guess 90% or more are good cops trying to do the right thing like they did with Gonzo, and we need not to forget that.
Yes - change is needed, but lets also not forget there are good ones out there and stories like this will remind people of that.
Yes - change is needed, but lets also not forget there are good ones out there and stories like this will remind people of that.
Agreed. This is a very difficult topic for a lot of reasons. All professions and all groups of people have good and bad actors. Typically the ones who are the worst do the most harm to the reputations of those who are good.
Right now, a lot of people are understandably upset about a lot of things. Hopefully everyone will take some deep breaths and find some rational solutions to what is happening. There's a lot of unintentional-intentional provoking happening on many sides right now, and the result is predictably what we have witnessed.
Right now, a lot of people are understandably upset about a lot of things. Hopefully everyone will take some deep breaths and find some rational solutions to what is happening. There's a lot of unintentional-intentional provoking happening on many sides right now, and the result is predictably what we have witnessed.
I hate to say this, but my experience with Henrico County's finest has been very different. On several occasions they pulled me over. Most recently (and during a stop), I leaned over to get my license and registration. The officer approached me from behind, with his gun drawn and pointed directly at my head. It was a very tense situation. From that point on, I have nothing but submissive towards those in blue. And I never reach over before an officer reaches my car.
Our society right now is a tinderbox and agree, we all need to take a step back, breathe, and come up with solutions to make things better.
All should take a knee in the humility of the moment.
https://www.newsobserver.com/news/state/north-carolina/article243193151.html
https://www.newsobserver.com/news/state/north-carolina/article243193151.html
This is a really important topic. Believe it should remain here on this board, if for no other reason than most of our active basketball players have spoken out on it (as has our coach).
Various viewpoints will be welcome here, so long as we all remain respectful of one another.
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This is now non-moderator '05 posting
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This absolutely eats me up as a father. We shouldn't be here as a country. We shouldn't have people living in fear of those in place to serve & protect them. We shouldn't have cowards hijacking honest movements for their own gain. We shouldn't have the voices of so many not heard because of the actions of a few. I'm disgusted that we can't pause the rhetoric and come to the table with cool heads and open ears and minds to collectively work towards a better future.
I hope you're all staying safe, sane and relatively sober during all this (COVID as well as protests).
Various viewpoints will be welcome here, so long as we all remain respectful of one another.
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This is now non-moderator '05 posting
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This absolutely eats me up as a father. We shouldn't be here as a country. We shouldn't have people living in fear of those in place to serve & protect them. We shouldn't have cowards hijacking honest movements for their own gain. We shouldn't have the voices of so many not heard because of the actions of a few. I'm disgusted that we can't pause the rhetoric and come to the table with cool heads and open ears and minds to collectively work towards a better future.
I hope you're all staying safe, sane and relatively sober during all this (COVID as well as protests).
With respect (because I like you), it's called officer safety and has nothing to do with race, age, gender or anything else. I had one good friend who was shot and killed because he was too casual on a traffic stop when the killer "reached into his glove box to retrieve his registration".
From this old retired cop, NOBODY HATES A BAD COP MORE THAN A GOOD COP. Thankfully in my time with Henrico Police I knew very few bad cops. That's all I'm saying about this issue...
Dang I thought I deleted it before it got seen. Yes I did it wasn't the mods. After writing it I felt this wasn't the appropriate forum to have everyone break down a personal question I had for Rick regarding his thoughts on my experiences with HPD. I'm sure he would of been appalled at their behavior but Id rather that conversation happen in private in hindsight so my apologies. Ill just say that to anyone who uses the saying "its a few rotten apples."....it probably wouldn't hurt to hear a different persons experience that has encountered more than a few. Especially considering "a few rotten apples rottens the whole bunch." is the entire saying.
I disagree with that saying "a few rotten apples ruins the whole bunch" in this instance because I think it then groups all cops into this "bad bunch" which we know is not true. I can't speak to your experience specifically as no one was there but you - but all I can say is that you have to also put yourselves in the cops shoes from time to time. I have had a similar experience - not so severe - pulled over by cop, then I reached for glove compartment while he approached vehicle and next thing I hear is yelling, screaming, and his hand on his weapon telling me not to move. Reason was for his safety. And then I thought to myself - who knows what has happened in his past - maybe he was shot at one time during a traffic stop, or maybe during a stop they searched the car and found a loaded weapon and he realized it could have been him was a shot and didn't make it home to his/her family. I am not condoning bad cops doing bad things like they did in Minnesota and again, I have no idea what these "few" instances you experienced - if they were truly bad cops doing something bad/wrong - or just normal cops maybe being over cautious.
But back on topic - I don't like the saying because it then ruins all the good cops out there who go beyond their duties - like the cop Mooney describes, or cops you see videos playing basketball or football with kids in the neighborhood, or cops who do extra in the community. Are there bad cops out there - Yes, probably in every single department across the country - there are bad cops. And some are worse than others - some are like the guy in Minnesota who killed George Floyd, and others might be abusing their power in little ways here and there. But wrong is wrong. But equally - there are good cops out there as well.
Greg Popovich - Spurs coach - gave a good interview a few years ago (you can find it on youtube). He said these exact words "America is a racist country". And he is right. He also said - the only way to fix that is both sides have to give up something. And that is the hard part. In this example with the cops - that would mean we have to drop our bias in saying all cops are bad or "one bad apple ruins the whole bunch" - and on the other side, cops have to do the same with the people they serve - they can't assume the next person is just as bad as the last person. And we have to try and root out the bad cops from the system. But no law, policy, etc can do that. This issue is a people issue. We have to as a whole change the way we think, the way we live, the way we interact with each other. How you do that - I have no idea. All I know is that even after these protests are over - and they pass some new laws, committees, etc - you will probably hear another bad cop story in a few months. This is not an issue that will be fixed overnight - it is something that likely we probably only has a chance to change with the youngest generation our there now. We have to raise them and teach them to be better and maybe use what is happening now as the starting point. If we teach them cops are bad, or these protests are wrong - then both sides will continue as they do today and nothing will get better.
But back on topic - I don't like the saying because it then ruins all the good cops out there who go beyond their duties - like the cop Mooney describes, or cops you see videos playing basketball or football with kids in the neighborhood, or cops who do extra in the community. Are there bad cops out there - Yes, probably in every single department across the country - there are bad cops. And some are worse than others - some are like the guy in Minnesota who killed George Floyd, and others might be abusing their power in little ways here and there. But wrong is wrong. But equally - there are good cops out there as well.
Greg Popovich - Spurs coach - gave a good interview a few years ago (you can find it on youtube). He said these exact words "America is a racist country". And he is right. He also said - the only way to fix that is both sides have to give up something. And that is the hard part. In this example with the cops - that would mean we have to drop our bias in saying all cops are bad or "one bad apple ruins the whole bunch" - and on the other side, cops have to do the same with the people they serve - they can't assume the next person is just as bad as the last person. And we have to try and root out the bad cops from the system. But no law, policy, etc can do that. This issue is a people issue. We have to as a whole change the way we think, the way we live, the way we interact with each other. How you do that - I have no idea. All I know is that even after these protests are over - and they pass some new laws, committees, etc - you will probably hear another bad cop story in a few months. This is not an issue that will be fixed overnight - it is something that likely we probably only has a chance to change with the youngest generation our there now. We have to raise them and teach them to be better and maybe use what is happening now as the starting point. If we teach them cops are bad, or these protests are wrong - then both sides will continue as they do today and nothing will get better.
To be honest I stopped reading most of your post when you said no one was there with me because someone was. An employee I was training and opted to not join our company because of how we were treated. Its clear you did not read my deleted post (at least not thoroughly) because if you were ever accused of selling heroin while you’re working by a police department that has no business in the city doing what they did to me, then work overtime to cover their mistake up, then I’m sure you would have a similiar opinion as me. This is exactly the reason why I deleted the post and really only wanted Ricks opinion on the matter since he’s a good cop that could help me and nothing bothers him more than a bad cop.
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I did not see your deleted post. Its deleted. But my point is - your account could have been accurate and if you were treated badly - I am sorry. But I think in some instances - people are too quick to blame the cops, just as the cops are sometimes too quick to jump to conclusions - like it seems they did with your encounter. And for that - I can only hope they reprimanded the officer. Because that is a bad cop. But your statement of one bad cop ruins the bunch - I can't agree with that with cops or any other use because there are bad people and things everywhere. There are bad coaches in basketball who break the rules and use kids for their own gain - does that make all them bad? There are bad professors who don't teach or are unfair to certain students - are all professors bad? I am sure you have had some bad bosses - does not make all bosses bad?
And I think Popovich nailed it - it takes both sides to change in order for this to get better. If we keep thinking everyone is bad - nothing will get better. If we keep being biased and unfair, and don't change our attitudes and actions on both sides - we will continue to be a racist country and these type of protests and environment will just pop up every few years when something terrible happens.
Since I am a short, white, fat, redneck, with 4 eyes, from Southern Mississippi (six adjectives), I completely agree . Always respect those in blue.
I'm incredibly over-the-top cautious/nervous whenever pulled over. and I'm white. that's a hard f'ing job cops have. they never know what's going to happen. I won't give any reason for a mistake to be made. I can't comprehend it when I see or hear of someone being confrontational with a cop.
I try to give the benefit of the doubt to cops. I think safety first on their part and not bias or being bad. But I can also see Ferrum's side - there are bad cops out there who overstep their authority or jump to conclusions too fast. But I think those the few bad apples and not the whole bunch.
I think it’s dangerous to compare bad cops to bad professors, coaches, or bosses.
Cops have an inherent power, more so than any professor, coach or boss, not to mention they carry a weapon. Because of the power and authority their position comes with, they have an extra responsibility to use it wisely and responsibly.
Obviously not all cops abuse this power (I would argue most don’t), and their job is often very dangerous. But we have now all seen video of 4 police officers killing a person in broad day light, in a drawn out 8+ minute situation. I think it’s beyond fair to say we need to re-evaluate policing in the United States, so it can be safe for all parties (both police and non-police).
Professors can control your future - flunk your class. Not to mention - some professors use that power in a physical manner over students. Coaches - some we have seen (Knight, Rice) have physically and mentally abused players. Bosses - some sexually harass their co-workers. So yeah - they don't carry weapons, but they still have a power over others they can abuse in ways that effect the victim for years to come - if not their entire life.
And the bad cops we have seen over the last month - I am not sure what you do to stop this behavior - these are simply bad people. Its not like they were following rules or laws, they broke all rules and laws. Maybe you train them more - but really - do they need more training to know you don't sit on a guys neck for 8 minutes? We need more of the good people to step up and push these guys out I guess - but even that has its challenges, especially when the bad ones have been there so long and its impossible to get rid of them. I don't know what the answer is - all I know is we are not in a good spot in as a country right now and any change will take years to make it better.
And the bad cops we have seen over the last month - I am not sure what you do to stop this behavior - these are simply bad people. Its not like they were following rules or laws, they broke all rules and laws. Maybe you train them more - but really - do they need more training to know you don't sit on a guys neck for 8 minutes? We need more of the good people to step up and push these guys out I guess - but even that has its challenges, especially when the bad ones have been there so long and its impossible to get rid of them. I don't know what the answer is - all I know is we are not in a good spot in as a country right now and any change will take years to make it better.
if a pilot, bus drivers, or train conductor drinks or is reckless, it's dangerous and can kill people. when it happens, we blame that individual ... not all pilots, bus drivers, or train conductors. this "F the Cops" rhetoric is unjust.
the only "solution" I can see is hiring a ton more minority policemen. that may not change the number of deaths, but at least it would take charges of racism out of the equation. I don't know how any white male goes into law enforcement these days.
But who right now is running to sign up as a police officer. The pay is terrible. Your risking your life. And now in the current environment it might be near impossible to do your job without someone coming down on you. And in what other profession do you have to wear a camera and video your entire work day? That alone is stressful. Even if you are a good cop. It’s like they are trying to get the cops to operate out of fear and this fear will cause th to act right. Rather than trust them and empower them to the right thing. Because getting someone to work out of fear will only work for short term.
Henrico pay for rookie cops is $46,339. Taco Bell is now paying some of its managers $100k. Who in their right mind would risk becomIng a cop when you could make double the pay and not risk your life making tacos?
Some cops are a-holes and are in it purely for the power. They’ll probably stick around regardless. The good ones (and there are plenty) who genuinely care about their community would be insane to stick around.
We will all be worse off for it.
Don't quote me on this, but Taco Bell. I think.
And most police forces are short on cops - which means that they have to keep the bad ones or risk having even less cops. Thats why when you see these things happen and they look into background of cops - they might have several internal investigations or reprimands but they don't fire them.
Just to keep things a bit in perspective. An unarmed black man has a 500% (9 last year) better chance of being killed by lighting than he does of being killed by a policeman. Unarmed white guys have 250% (19 last year) better chance of the same.
You’re not sorry and your apology is insincere at best and meaningless to me. As is your opinion on this because you didn’t experience what I did. You have no idea what you are talking about and I certainly hope you never have to experience what I did because if more Americans (average white males) like me did you’d be outraged and open to the idea of reform instead of the “few bad apples” argument.
You didn’t read my statement yet went on to lecture me about why my argument without even asking what happened to me. Just some half @ssed apology that means nothing. Where you made no attempt to understand my opinion or experience. You just came in and parroted the same non sense I hear from people who have no interest in reform or immediately rush to remind us how great cops are instead of actually listening as if we don’t know that they’re cops out there that do commit good deeds and they aren’t all evil.
All I need to do is google police brutality and thousands of videos come up just from the previous few days of them beating the hell out of people protesting them beating because they beat the hell out of certain segments of the population. I don’t hate cops, but I hate when people and institutions protect their own in the wake of overwhelming evidence they misbehaved/broke the law which I have experienced first hand with an entire police department that is supposedly loaded with good guys. Apparently that means your anti cop to a large portion of the population.
It’s not an easy job and it’s unsafe as well so I give them some discretion in their decision making which is why I cooperated the entire time with the police despite how dense they were being. It’s also less deadly than being an electrictian or delivery driver statistically speaking....yet they don’t command the same discretion or admiration from the populace to do what ever the hell they want, often times get a free pass or a slap on the wrist compared to if their fellow citizens doing the same thing.
I’ll probably get a word salad about that’s not what you meant, or that you’re gonna double down and say it really just is a few bad apples. I wouldn’t waste your time. In the mean time here are a bunch of cops in riot gear knocking a 75 year old man unconscious to the ground and not a single one stops to help. This is from just yesterday. Yup just a few bad apples, look at all those good cops rush in to help and eventually arrest the cop that shoved him to the ground....
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I am not going to make this lengthy - but unfortunately your viewpoint of the cops is making my point. I am not saying the cop in your example or any of the recent examples we have seen are right. They have been 100% in the wrong. But BOTH sides have to change for this to get better. We can't have the cops start acting "good" and behaving themselves, but everyone around still not trusting them and acting out as such. In the same sense - we can't have the public put full faith and trust in the cops and say lets start fresh - only to have the bad cops continue their behavior.
Will this ever happen - sadly to say, I don't believe so because I think your response sums it up that the prevailing attitude of the public will not change. And on the other side - as we have stated above - I don't see the cops changing either. Paying little, having a shortage of cops, and we will have to see what the penalty (if any) is for the cops in the recent events - the bad cops will not be pushed out and will continue.
The protests will end soon, some superficial changes will be made - committees will be formed, and these "bad" cop stories will continue in our news feed for months and years to come.
Will this ever happen - sadly to say, I don't believe so because I think your response sums it up that the prevailing attitude of the public will not change. And on the other side - as we have stated above - I don't see the cops changing either. Paying little, having a shortage of cops, and we will have to see what the penalty (if any) is for the cops in the recent events - the bad cops will not be pushed out and will continue.
The protests will end soon, some superficial changes will be made - committees will be formed, and these "bad" cop stories will continue in our news feed for months and years to come.
Lots of whites people on here lecturing brown and black people on how they should view cops is interesting, as they have generally had vastly different experiences with law enforcement. Had these experiences been more positive, I think you would see a lot more African-Americans signing up to be police officers, which would help decrease the shortages that exist and also provide another path out of poverty.
One who chooses to be a police officer chooses a vocation, a calling if you will. They are special people, just like veterans, nurses, doctors, and firefighters. Many are following a family tradition to serve. There is strength and character in them.
I have no idea what color anyone is on this board - so "assuming" someone is one color because of their opinion in words - not a good thing. And you may be surprised what color some are. Unless someone shares - I could care less what color you are - your opinion is your opinion whether your red, brown, green, white, black - etc.
An ignorant, short sighted response, from someone likely never to have been falsely arrested by police that then had internal affairs cover up the whole incident when reaching out to these so called good cops. Who clearly has no idea where to start this conversation and what its like to feel disenfranchised and insists its just as much my fault as the cops that I got falsely arrested. Who insists its both sides that are the problem, not the ones knocking over 75 year old men who bleed from their ears or killed in their home with a no knock search warrant and are currently free. If I did that to an old person I would be in prison for years. And you say its a both sides problem. Yup its defiantly my fault and you are the wokest of woke.
Maybe instead of buying up military surplus gear to beat their citizens, departments could use that money to pay their cops more. Plus I hear the benefits are pretty good. I actually have a few cop friends, and while they don't like the pay they love the benefits and the feeling of power that comes with their job.
For the record I don't disagree with you about it ending. If you literally cant tell the difference between the two sides of the argument there is not much hope for change as you say. Power never willingly cedes power. I dont have power but the people who pulled me over sure did and still do. And yet you insist we are equally culpable. What a joke.
Mods, please delete this thread. God forbid I try to start a thread complimentary of our coach sharing a thoughtful, balanced, positive story in this time.
Sincerely,
CB
Sincerely,
CB
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