Interesting question for the next President of UR

[Eight Legger]

When is the last time that a school with a highly successful Division I athletics program has decided to drop the entire program down to Division 3? I am going to go out on a limb and theorize "never." And we sure as hell will not be the first to do so.

This entire concept is completely absurd.

 

[MolivaManiac]

If we could get to the point where we're more than a .500 ball club over a 4 year period, i think the number of alumni in the area, the number of flags in restaurants, the amount of Spider gear sold at various stores and our conference affiliation becomes a moot point.

 

[WebSpinner]

recall, if my memory serves and we all know that is on thin ice, that frs came on here a few years ago and stated that on the unwcah boards, they were joking about UR moving to d-3 and since that time, he has accepted the mantle of keeping that going. he continues the d-3 and the virginia students stories but at least has dropped the Mike London deal for the time being.

 

[keefusb]

I am not advocating the idea of D3 sports, nor do I think that would ever happen here, but the fact that our targeted peer institutions are primarily D3 schools could be the basis for some BoT or executive level discussion in the future.

I think going to the Patriot League is a more distinct possibility, but not one that I would favor. Plus, most of the PL member schools are already clustered right around where we are in the USN&WR rankings anyway, so simply going to the PL wouldn't help elevate our academic standing to Swarthmore/Williams/Amherst level.

I was happy to see Davidson join the A10, they are a lot more like we are than any of the other A10 schools.

 

[FrontRoyalSpider]

Actually Eight Legger it happened in the early 1950s when W&L (Washington & Lee University) Dropped down to D3. Prior to that event, W & L was a national power in college football. The Generals of W & L played in The Gator Bowl! If we did drop to D3 we would not be the first. I hope we never drop to Division III.

 

[72Spider]

Jubel, give it a rest!

 

[WebSpinner]

w&l continued to play d-1 lax and seems like the late 60s or maybe early 70s, dropped to d-3. they were a top 10 lax program but there were probably only about 10 teams playing scholarship lax at that time.

 

[urfan1]

as to a drop to 2-3 --- REALLY!! Not going to happen, if it does many supporters will be gone. The 1950's for an example, really!!!!

 

[Marley13]

Dumbest discussion ever. Will never drop to D-3.

 

[FrontRoyalSpider]

Eight Legger asked when was the last time a successful D1 program was dropped to D3? He went on to post probably never. My post pointed out this actually happened. Yes it was 60 years ago. It DID happen.

I don't want UR to go D3.

 

[Spider B]

Agree Marley. This is a ridiculous conversation. UR will only leave the A10 if we join the Big East. No dropping down divisions and no dropping down down conferences (Patriot League). UR has always strived to compete at the highest level in athletics while maintaining the highest academic standard. This is the Robins family vision for the University and the vision of the far majority of Spider supporters. I wish some of FRS posts were actually rooted in reality rather than deranged posts from RPI and JMU message boards.

 

[97spiderfan]

Originally posted by Spider B:
I wish some of FRS posts were actually rooted in reality rather than deranged posts from RPI and JMU message boards.

Not that I visit either message board, but does anyone actually say this with a straight face on either of these message boards. If they do, it is only to screw with FRS, and if that is the case, I say bravo Dukes and Rams fans.

 

[PASpider]

The original question might be the dumbest post I've ever seen on this message board, and that is saying something.

 

[urfan1]

Yep!

 

[keefusb]

I don't think the original question (academics versus athletics for the next POTUOR) is dumb at all. It's actually very relevant. The fact that this thread devolved into a D3 or Patriot League discussion could be characterized as dumb, but the views and opinions of the incoming president can and probably will have a lasting impact on the future of the University.

Who the hell knows what the new president will think or do? I don't see us deviating much from our current path as an institution, but Silly Billy Cooper absolutely had a lasting impact in terms of tuition, marketing to students from the northeast, and initiating very real and serious discussions about moving sports programs to the PL.

Anyone who thinks that a new president will come into office and simply maintain the status quo (financially, academically, athletically, or culturally) needs to share whatever it is they are smoking. The chief reason they are hired is to push the mission of the school forward, and the fact is that the president of the university has a great deal of influence on how that happens.

 

[I-M-UR]

The way I understand it you can't drop football to D3 and play D1 basketball. It is why schools like Georgetown and Bulter have FCS teams.

 

[WebSpinner]

bottom line, we, on here, would like to have a prez who enjoys athletics and maintains an atmosphere on campus positive for the coaches, the student/athletes and the athletic administration. the d-3 deal is strictly a frs production, no sensible person even thinks in those terms, just not going to happen. however, if things continue big picture as they are, paying student athletes, unionization of student/athletes, could see a large number of institutions, dropping all scholarship sports and just having club sports. really don't expect that to happen but would not totally dismiss it either.

 

[TBSpyder]

Paspider, I thank you from the bottom of my heart. You are right, to have posted that I created, the dumbest thread ever on this board, is quite a unique accomplishment. Sometimes dumb questions can be enlightening.

 

[AnnapSpider]

We didn't spend millions of dollars on a new football stadium, turn around and spend millions more on our basketball arena to go D-3.
It makes me wonder- where has the person been that thinks we would? I sure wouldn't want that person in my company. They obviously have
no foresight regarding the future.

 

[FrontRoyalSpider]

Some of ya'll posted that I believe we are going D3,
Actually my point was that with a new president, often changes are made.
I voiced the concern that I hope we do not select a university prez along the lines of that wacko William Cooper!
If the new president is "Cooperish", he/she MIGHT try to get us to go D3.

I would NOT want UR to go D3. Stay D1. It is where we belong

FRS

 

[urfan1]

How about something like, "as we strive to continue our march towards academic excellence, what is the role athletics in our mission?

 

[TBSpyder]

URfan1, yes indeed. How have M.I.T., University of Chicago, New York University, Harvey Mudd College, kept their academic reputations, without athletic success? This will be a perennial question for UR. The fact that it's questioned, doesn't mean we will do anything different from what we're already doing. But the questioning is necessary. How much should students be asked to pay for an athletic program, if they're not interested in it?

The question, is what is the proper balance. There is disagreement, even on this board. Some feel, we must reach the NCAA tournament most years, which would make us one of a hand full of such teams among small private universities. Others want competitive teams year in and out. Some alumni threaten to withhold donations, if their wishes aren't carried out. Will be interesting to see how it all plays out. My guess, is that UR, continues on it's present path.

 

[32counter]

3 out of 4 of the above schools are highly ranked research institutions.Harvey Mudd is a less than 800 population school.Not sure that all but one of the above schools are academically compatible particularly given their overly urban presence.

If we are able to hire someone with undergrad working experience from the following schools we'll be OK when it comes to the health of our athletic programs.

Stanford
ND
Northwestern
Duke
Rice
BC
Vanderbilt
Wake
USC

All those schools rank(Forbes) above UR







This post was edited on 2/17 10:32 PM by 32counter

 

[Eight Legger]

If we played Harvey Mudd on the road, we would lose.

 

[ThePhysician]

I feel NIT isnt too high of a goal and should be most years than not ?

 

[SpiderK]

Eight, that is the truest and funniest thing I have heard all day!!! 70 to 73

 

[32counter]

Mudd is 16-6(9-2 home).Eight,your insight is very admirable.

Mudd is tough at home

 

[SpiderK]

I am more impressed with Mudd's 7-4 away record!! We haven't seen that in years.

 

[WebSpinner]

32, really difficult and not really fair to try and place us with schools in the power 5 conferences. any school, of any size, is going to have a huge advantage in financial resources and national exposure over us.

 

[Cooper'sGhost]

Yes, it's fair in the sense that it gives UR something to TRY and strive for. To work for those additional resources/finances and exposure on a national level.

I don't understand why some of you constantly try to handicap the university and the athletics programs. Zero vision and mediocre expectations. It is what it is and we are who we are, huh?

 

[keefusb]

All the schools 32 mentioned are larger than we are and most of them are from larger conferences. Plus, in the USN&WR rankings (along with Princeton Review, Forbes, and others), we are classified as a "National Liberal Arts College", and these other schools are "National Universities". Big difference, mostly in size and mission.

I do agree that getting personnel from these schools would potentially be helpful in terms of understanding the academic/athletics balance, but we don't really consider these schools to be peer institutions (except maybe Rice and Wake).

The schools we endeavor to be like from an academic perspective are Williams, Swarthmore, Amherst and the like. They are among the top 5 "National Liberal Arts Colleges", and we rank somewhere around 30.

Athletically, we are most like the PL schools, Davidson, Rice, and a few of the West Coast Conference schools like St. Mary's, Santa Clara, and maybe Gonzaga.

 

[SouthJerseySpiderFan]

Originally posted by keefusb:
we are classified as a "National Liberal Arts College", and these other schools are "National Universities"

What academically is UR that's doesn't get them classified as a NU? Could they get reclassified?

 

[urfan1]

Isn't the biggest difference the post grad programs? (our lack of them)

 

[WebSpinner]

Ghost, want to be the best we can be and be in the best conf we can be in but am also a realist and we are not going to be able to even the playing field with those schools who are raking in millions of dollars in revenues annually while we are paying out millions of dollars annually on athletics, apples and oranges. bama's net, profit, surplus, however one wishes to describe it, $50+ million on their athletic program in 2014. sure, vandy or duke or northwestern did not do as well but they did haul in the same conf and tv money as their conf schools. two different planets and no matter how positive one wants to be about it.

 

[ur2K]

Originally posted by URFan1:
Isn't the biggest difference the post grad programs? (our lack of them)

I'd guess university sponsored research has a lot to do with the rankings as well.

 

[fan2011]

Originally posted by SouthJerseySpiderFan:

Originally posted by keefusb:
we are classified as a "National Liberal Arts College", and these other schools are "National Universities"

What academically is UR that's doesn't get them classified as a NU? Could they get reclassified?

As said before, the ranking criteria are different for National Universities and National Liberal Arts Colleges. From USN+WR:

"National Universities offer a full range of undergraduate majors, plus master's and doctoral programs, and emphasize faculty research. National Liberal Arts Colleges focus almost exclusively on undergraduate education."

We aren't a research institution, we don't have graduate programs (besides law I guess). We are focused on the undergraduate experience, and provide an excellent undergraduate education (much better than National Universities). If we were judged by the same criteria as National Universities we would be close to last.

 

[fan2011]

Originally posted by WebSpinner:
Ghost, want to be the best we can be and be in the best conf we can be in but am also a realist and we are not going to be able to even the playing field with those schools who are raking in millions of dollars in revenues annually while we are paying out millions of dollars annually on athletics, apples and oranges. bama's net, profit, surplus, however one wishes to describe it, $50+ million on their athletic program in 2014. sure, vandy or duke or northwestern did not do as well but they did haul in the same conf and tv money as their conf schools. two different planets and no matter how positive one wants to be about it.

Here is an article that looks at D1 public schools. It found that only 23 of them made a profit from athletics in 2012. http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/college/2013/05/07/ncaa-finances-subsidies/2142443/. The vast majority of schools, even BCS schools, lose a ton of money in college athletics.

 

[WebSpinner]

agree that not all top 5 conf teams are created equal but the numbers can be really hokie, henky, if you get my drift. "expenses" being the dark area. in the same year 2014, auburn football had a surplus of over $30 million yet the athletic dept lost money. depending on how an institution runs its ship, deficits, surpluses, etc. can be way off the wall. would UR rather have millions coming in to help defray athletic costs or just be putting its own money into the whole enchilada every year? yep, thought so.

 

[wr70beh]

Originally posted by ur2K:
I believe there's a whole lot of people (myself included) that would stop donating if we went DIII or went to the patriot league.

We didn't build a new football stadium and redo the RC with suites to go D3.

 

[MrTbone]

Fwiw, the admissions department looks at duke and wake as the comps we vie with for students. It's not really swarthmore or something the like that are being mentioned.

I think we have limited concern about de emphasizing bball and even less about going D3.

New president will embrace athletics and correctly recognize they are important to university and alumni but still subservient to the overall academic mission.