Incoming Freshmen - Pistokache, Johnson, Dominaus
- Thread starter Stork3
- Start date
We have to find a way to rebound better (especially defensively) as a program. Usually height helps in that department. We need to find a big man who is ready to contribute in 2016/2017.
Last edited:
We can talk all we want about interior size not being important. But historically, we have not fared well against teams with a dominant (or not even so dominant) big man. Xavier had the enormous white kid (Frease) who always seemed to have strong games against us, Samhan from Saint Mary's had a career game against us in the NCAAs, the Leonard kid from Illinois ate us up in an OOC game, there was a 7'1" kid from Washington State who killed us in the NIT several years back. We even struggled against Cohen from Davidson, and the Muscalla kid from Bucknell. And don't even get me started on the Morris twins from Kansas.
Interior size may be less of an issue in A10 play, but that's another story altogether in OCC or post-season play.
Interior size may be less of an issue in A10 play, but that's another story altogether in OCC or post-season play.
The rest makes sense, but the bolded part isn't this guy is it?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Todd_MacCulloch
The point is valid. I would even include Uwe Blab of Indiana in 1984. My point is that this has been going on longer than the Mooney era.
What is difficult is having the ability to recruit someone who can defend a dominating big man without giving up too much in other areas.
Alonzo Nelson-Ododa was that guy. Hopefully UR will get another such player this year.
Over half the players you mentioned ended up in the NBA, of course we had trouble playing against them. As someone said above, a dominant player at ANY position will give us trouble, not just big men. For example, Tu Halloway gave us much more trouble than Frease when they were both playing for Xavier. We have played against many teams that had a ton of height and completely dominated them much more often then the other way around.
It would be nice to have an NBA caliber big man on our team to counteract the NBA caliber big men we play once every few years, but I don't think it is realistic.
Last edited:
We don't need an NBA-caliber big man, but we do need a couple of guys with some size who can play defense and at least slow the other bigs down. I remember Ryan Butler trying to D up on Samhan in the second half of the Saint Mary's game, and he was straight up manhandled.
That was one thing we had with ANO, a big dude with some shot blocking chops who could keep almost any opposing big honest around the basket.
That was one thing we had with ANO, a big dude with some shot blocking chops who could keep almost any opposing big honest around the basket.
I'd like to see us go more Davidson style with shooters all over the floor so glad to read one post about Mooney changing his tone a bit and looking for shooters. I think our system is perfect for that. Less about height as we won't get the really good big man there aren't enough to go around. And our system isn't geated towards it.
Let's get the best shooters at each position and see what the results are. So far the results speak for themselves. Go Spiders!
Let's get the best shooters at each position and see what the results are. So far the results speak for themselves. Go Spiders!
There are only so many "big" men to go around. Do think it is realistic to land the Peter Woolfork type of player who averaged 13 points and 7 rebounds for his career and is in the Richmond Hall of Fame. He played forward and scored 27 points against Georgia Tech to propel us into the Sweet 16 in 1988. He was our leading scorer that season. Like the way SD phrased it about "shooters all over the floor."
We need shooters in Mooney's system. Our most successful teams - during that back to back NCAA run had shooters on the floor almost all the time.
Look at the guys who played major minutes.
In 2010 NCAA year, the loss to St. Mary's - you had Anderson, Gonzo, Butler, Harper, and Geriot playing 74% of the minutes that year each game. 3 point shooting percentages for those guys in same order 34%, 36%, 39%, 34%, and 23%. Geriot was coming off injury and was down, but was still respected because the year before he shot 39% - so teams knew he could shoot it.
In 2011 NCAA year, the sweet 16 run. You had Anderson, Harper, Smith, Geriot, and Brothers playing 71% of the minutes and they shot 40%, 44%, 37%, 41% and 40%. Smith is a little misleading because he only attempted 19 3 pointers on the year, so you can throw him out.
Point being - last few years, we have not had 5 shooters on the floor, and probably not even 4 shooters on the floor. That makes our motion or PO offense easy to guard because you can give guys space with no worry about them shooting. You can also help off the 2 non-shooters on the floor. Guys like Trey David, Taylor, ANO, and even Allen at times do not pose a threat to other teams from the outside. Allowing them to focus more on our good shooters and make it even harder.
We don't need a big guy inside. We need someone with good size (6-8ish) who can shoot and pass, and can defend on the perimeter in our switching defense for short periods of time. I am okay with losing the rebounding battle, but that means we have to shoot well to make up for it - and we have not done that lately.
Look at the guys who played major minutes.
In 2010 NCAA year, the loss to St. Mary's - you had Anderson, Gonzo, Butler, Harper, and Geriot playing 74% of the minutes that year each game. 3 point shooting percentages for those guys in same order 34%, 36%, 39%, 34%, and 23%. Geriot was coming off injury and was down, but was still respected because the year before he shot 39% - so teams knew he could shoot it.
In 2011 NCAA year, the sweet 16 run. You had Anderson, Harper, Smith, Geriot, and Brothers playing 71% of the minutes and they shot 40%, 44%, 37%, 41% and 40%. Smith is a little misleading because he only attempted 19 3 pointers on the year, so you can throw him out.
Point being - last few years, we have not had 5 shooters on the floor, and probably not even 4 shooters on the floor. That makes our motion or PO offense easy to guard because you can give guys space with no worry about them shooting. You can also help off the 2 non-shooters on the floor. Guys like Trey David, Taylor, ANO, and even Allen at times do not pose a threat to other teams from the outside. Allowing them to focus more on our good shooters and make it even harder.
We don't need a big guy inside. We need someone with good size (6-8ish) who can shoot and pass, and can defend on the perimeter in our switching defense for short periods of time. I am okay with losing the rebounding battle, but that means we have to shoot well to make up for it - and we have not done that lately.
I can almost agree with you Trap. I believe we need shooters also, but I also believe the game is a trade off. If you have the big dominate guys you give up the running speed game, if you have the small speedy guys you give up the power game. If we get "killed" on the boards it's hard to make up the number of additional shots the other team gets.
All good points, I think Mooney may have gotten away from recruiting for his system in recent classes. We need guys who can shoot and pass (and mainly make really good decisions with the ball) on offense and guys who can guard multiple positions on D. That's what those NCAA teams had - the exception size-wise on D was KA but he has a banner hanging from the ceiling.
recruiting isn't an exact science. Deion came in with the reputation of being a shooter. I remember comparisons of Trey vs his dad. totally different players, with Trey being a shooter. didn't turn out that way, though he's still an effective player with a motor like dad.
Excuse me, but Deion was never known as a shooter. He averaged 11.5 points/game. He was known as a great athlete and defensive player.http://highschoolsports.nola.com/ne...mmits-to-play-college-basketball-at-richmond/
I guess I should expand my comment to say scorers or shooters. Sometimes a guy is not a great shooter but finds a way to score, garbage points, drive the lane, FT's etc. The idea is to put pressure on the opposing D. I do think shooting and scoring will be more critical with the shorter clock -- especially guys that can create. Watching the NBA playoffs and some of the guys that could create space was fun.
Last season we attempted 50.9 field goals per 40 minutes while our opponents attempted 51.6. We pulled down 28.7 rebounds per 40 minutes while our opponents pulled down 34.5.
Even though our opponents pulled down 5.8 more rebounds than us per 40 minutes, that only netted them 0.7 more shots than us. Our opponent's rebounding advantage doesn't really lead to an appreciable advantage in shot attempts.
even the article you linked says “He’s just 16-years-old now and he won’t make 18 until February of his freshman year in college. I think his athleticism and his ability to knock down shots from the outside will be benefit them. I think they did a good job of recruiting him.’’
another: Taylor has a nice jump shot and he is a good athlete who figures to improve as a young senior. Taylor can score the ball at a higher rate but the fact that he plays on such a talented team that spreads the wealth under Clifford Barthe will keep his statistics modest.
we didn't recruit him thinking he was just an athlete. you have to project when you're watching a 16 year old kid. the 11.5 ppg was as a junior on a loaded team. the average didn't go up much senior year, but I bet we thought it would. with a kid like Deion, you hope you found a guy who's going to be a star. athleticism was obviously off the charts. definitely a chance worth taking.
Strongly agree that the Spiders would be better suited with 5 good shooters on the floor. Big guys who can really shoot and handle (like T.J. Cline) are often the overlooked prize, because many coaches are looking for the beefy, banging, super athletic types underneath.
Depending upon personnel and specific matchups, I am in favor of playing 3 or even 4 guards and/or small forwards at the same time if they are "light it up shooters." If my shooters are exceptional, then I will take 3 points and give you 2 all game long. I will win the overwhelming majority of my games playing this way. When my shooters collectively have an off night, we lose.
*** Not wise for a coach to attempt this playing philosophy when he doesn't have enough exceptional shooters. When he does, the "results speaking for themselves" may not end up saying what we would like for them to say (54% overall winning percentage).
To be fair, before his back surgery Deion shot 51% (19-37) from 2 and 40% (26-60) from 3 which is pretty good. After his back surgery he shot 51% (52 -101) from 2 and 21% (23-108) from 3. He lost his range after his back surgery.
If Deion's true 3pt shooting percentage was 21% as a freshman he would only have <4% chance to make at least 20 out of 60 baskets. He would have <1% chance to make at least 25 out of 60 baskets. He made 26, which to me is evidence that he was most likely a much better shooter before back surgery and his freshman numbers aren't just noise.
Last edited:
No question in my mind, that Mooney went through a period of recruitment where increased value was put on athletism over shooting/scoring ability (TD, ANO, DT, Garrett are the foremost examples). I think we are now going back to recruiting guys who better fit our system, which means more value being put on shooting/scoring over pure athletic ability. Perhaps, he thought it would be easier to make great athletes better shooters than vice versa.
As for DT, pre and post surgery, I was watching some highlights of Deion his freshman year, and while he hit more shots that year, his stroke still was far from ideal. It is much worse now, of course.
As for DT, pre and post surgery, I was watching some highlights of Deion his freshman year, and while he hit more shots that year, his stroke still was far from ideal. It is much worse now, of course.
Both NCAA years under CM, we were knocked out by teams with dominant big men who were instrumental in their team's success (Sanham and the Morris twins, and you could even count Thomas Robinson as well). We need shooters, but we need some size, too.
Our tallest team under Mooney was in 2007 when we went 8-22. We were the 14th tallest basketball team in the country by average height. We were also one of the worst teams in the country. Height is a far behind skill when it comes to winning college basketball games, especially since there are very few skilled big men every year and they go almost entirely to the big P5 schools. We obviously can't completely disregard height, but I would take a skilled 6'6 player over a Luke Piotrowski type 6'11 project any day.
And we have also contained NBA big men in the post season (Kenneth Faried) and lost to teams that don't have dominant big men. A big man alone will not beat us, a really good big man on a really good team can give us trouble, but that is because they have a really good team supporting them.
And we have also contained NBA big men in the post season (Kenneth Faried) and lost to teams that don't have dominant big men. A big man alone will not beat us, a really good big man on a really good team can give us trouble, but that is because they have a really good team supporting them.
Last edited:
Would not characterize Kenneth Faried as a "big man" at 6'8" who plays mostly at the 3 or 4 for Denver, and is primarily a rebounder and defender. I would not say that we "contained" Festus Ezelli, who had and continues to have major liabilities as an offensive player. When we played Saint Mary's, Samhan didn't have a very impressive supporting cast, he pretty much beat us by himself.
In CM's system, shooting and skill are emphasized over size. But if we want to compete against top level OOC competition, and against elite teams in the post-season, we need some size defensively in order to compete effectively, history has shown us that.
In CM's system, shooting and skill are emphasized over size. But if we want to compete against top level OOC competition, and against elite teams in the post-season, we need some size defensively in order to compete effectively, history has shown us that.
I believe we will improve in rebounding this year, in part because of a more mature frontcourt. But, also because, we will be playing a bigger backcourt. Last year, with two small guards, we were not effective, grabbing the long rebounds. This year, if we can grab some of those, the rebounding margin will narrow.
Samhan wasn't a one man show, he had Dellavedova (who actually had an off game) and a great outside shooter in Mickey McConnell. Samhan had 29, but McConnell had 23. That team was very good, they were not one dimensional. We played them initially to force someone other than Samhan to beat us, and when they did, we started having to guard the perimeter, and that's when he went to work.
This does demonstrate that a good big guy can make us pay, but to say Samhan did it on his own is a stretch.
That Saint Mary's team was 13th in the country in 3FG%, 7th in 2FG% and 16th in FT%. They had scorers everywhere (and 5 players who shot over 37% from 3) which made it so we couldn't focus just and Samhan or double team him. He had a perfect supporting cast (including Dellavodova who was a star in this past NBA playoffs) who could wait on the 3pt line and hit open shots, drawing the defense away from the basket so Samhan could do his thing. Without the 4 deadeye shooters on the perimeter Samhan would not be able to do as well on the inside.
You are making my point, we make up lost rebounds with steals, TOs, holding onto the ball, etc, but the other team still gets more shots than we do. If we shoot better it likely results in a win, but when we have an off night etc its more difficult to make up the deficit. I'm not trying to bash the system. It's what Chris wants and he's the Coach. It's just that every system tries to emphasis certain things and in doing so they give up things. Very few teams have multiple 5 stars that allows them to out athlete the other team even on off nights.
That St. Mary's team was excellent. Yes, Samhan destroyed UR inside, but the Spiders did not play well enough to beat a very good team.
Exceptional shooters are not made in an offseason. Great shooters fire instinctively, born from years of repetition and the confidence of continual success. The best shooters "know" in their mind that they are going to make the next one.
The opposite mindset works against players like Taylor & Trey Davis. Creeping doubt (at the free throw line for example) makes it most likely that they miss. Sure, anyone can throw one in the ocean every now and again, but the odds are not on your side when the pressure is on and your mindset is negative.
This is why players who are not very good shooters should never be in the game when free throw shooting is likely to determine the outcome. This is a coaching no brainer.
Latest posts
-
-
-
Charlotte Game (and travel) thread - Wed 11/13 7pm ESPN+
- Latest: SouthJerseySpiderFan
-
