End one and done, lifetime bans for rule breakers

[spider fan]

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-ba...ollege-basketball-shares-recommendations-ncaa

Commission comes up with good recommendations. Will they be implemented? Is there enough pressure in light of recent scandals to give this some weight and effectiveness?

 

[nathanw19]

They fell short of making change to the biggest reason for all the illicit activity: the money. In fact, they went out of their way to say that wasn’t what they were trying to do, which to me screams they were given direction not to come back with players should be given money.

Until they either share revenue with their employees (the players) in salary or some variation of the Olympic model (allowing use of their likeness by signing endorsement deals), the issues will persist. There is just too much money at stake. Make it above board and regulate it if you must, but trying to keep players from earning money legitimately in the eyes of the NCAA will just continue to lead to players to earn in more illicit ways and backeoom deals.

 

[WebSpinner]

the nba controls one and done not the ncaa, they just play along. if the ncaa gets cute here they may create the football model for basketball real quickly, the power five controls things not the ncaa. gosh, what does the ncaa control now that i think about it.

 

[plydogg]

the nba controls one and done not the ncaa, they just play along. if the ncaa gets cute here they may create the football model for basketball real quickly, the power five controls things not the ncaa. gosh, what does the ncaa control now that i think about it.

NCAA controls their slaves.

Oh wait, I meant "student athletes"

Coulda fooled me though

 

[plydogg]

In case anybody thought the slave comment was too far...the NCAA literally used the 13th amendment in their defense that they should be able to go without paying the "student-athletes"

Also Chris Weber and Isiah Thomas are on record comparing the way the NCAA runs to slave plantations.

 

[Rivercup]

Does that apply to the thousands of student athletes who get a free education and free room and board and don’ t consider themselves “slaves?” I’m sorry, but I don’t think that it is the responsibility of NCAA basketball to ensure that their players succeed in the NBA. I may be in the minority, but I still believe in “student athletes.”

 

[plydogg]

Does that apply to the thousands of student athletes who get a free education and free room and board and don’ t consider themselves “slaves?” I’m sorry, but I don’t think that it is the responsibility of NCAA basketball to ensure that their players succeed in the NBA. I may be in the minority, but I still believe in “student athletes.”

You should look up the history of the term "student-athlete." It was made up by NCAA lawyers not to say students are also athletes but to circumvent the law saying that athletes must be paid. I highly recommend digging deeper into this. I have NO problem with someone thinking that a free education is ample compensation. It is a valid argument. But I feel like you must at least educate yourself on just how corrupt the NCAA is before coming to that decision.

 

[Rivercup]

I don’t disagree with your comments about the NCAA. However, in my opinion, playing sports at the collegiate level is a privilege, not slavery. If you want to get paid to play, then go pro.

 

[plydogg]

Getting the opportunity to work for Nike in Sri Lanka is a privilege too right?

All jokes aside, in what sport can they go pro straight from highschool? If I'm a national championship winning QB at, say, Alabama, and I try to make money off myself then all hell breaks loose. If I'm just a normal student at Alabama who goes viral in a video and make money off myself there's no problem. That's a huge problem.

 

[plydogg]

The NCAA had to bribe a lot of politicians to get where they are. Its the same reason marijuana was made illegal. Plenty of fake stories spread but if you read the origins you can see just how corrupt their lawyers are. Mark Emmert is worse than the scum you pick up on your shoe walking through the mud

 

[nathanw19]

You should look up the history of the term "student-athlete." It was made up by NCAA lawyers not to say students are also athletes but to circumvent the law saying that athletes must be paid. I highly recommend digging deeper into this. I have NO problem with someone thinking that a free education is ample compensation. It is a valid argument. But I feel like you must at least educate yourself on just how corrupt the NCAA is before coming to that decision.

This isn’t exactly true. It was created to circumvent workers compensation laws (aka if you’re injured or unable to work due to something happening at work). If athletes had been deemed employees, players could have potentially received money if they were injured during the course of playing for the school in a debilitating way that would’ve stopped them from potential earnings in the future. In order to avoid this, the NCAA coined the phrase student-athletes, arguing that they were not employees and therefore had no right to workers compensation.

The blanket statement of saying it was created so students wouldn’t get paid is a little too broad. It’s more acurate that it was coined to create a designation for players other than employees, in order to circumvent liability for injuries that occurred while playing.

 

[fan2011]

Getting the opportunity to work for Nike in Sri Lanka is a privilege too right?

All jokes aside, in what sport can they go pro straight from highschool? If I'm a national championship winning QB at, say, Alabama, and I try to make money off myself then all hell breaks loose. If I'm just a normal student at Alabama who goes viral in a video and make money off myself there's no problem. That's a huge problem.

You realize that student athletes are not forced to play sports against their will and can leave at any time right?

 

[01Arachnid]

All jokes aside, in what sport can they go pro straight from highschool?

Off the top of my head? Soccer, baseball, ice hockey, tennis (mens & womens), golf (mens & womens). Lots of money for young talent in any of those sports, no college strings attached...if you're good enough.

 

[plydogg]

Off the top of my head? Soccer, baseball, ice hockey, tennis (mens & womens), golf (mens & womens). Lots of money for young talent in any of those sports, no college strings attached...if you're good enough.

I worded that poorly, you're absolutely correct. I'll try and elaborate a little more on what I meant though.

I don't count tennis or golf here because it isn't "Oh i'm done with highschool so now I'll go pro" - It is more of players going pro when they have competed in ITF tournaments and have seen an increase in rank so that they can get to Challenger tournaments. I don't know enough about the lower levels of golf to comment on what those lower level tournaments are called since I'm sure they aren't all directly run by the PGA.

In baseball yes a decent amount go pro but they go to the minors (Of course the players taken the first few rounds receive wonderful compensation but once you go lower down in the draft their bonuses are smaller) and don't make a livable wage once they get there. I think baseball is one of the toughest decisions because if you forego college to play pro you're giving up a lot for a small chance.

I always just assumed ice hockey was different because there are so many Canadian players from Canada involved and i know their college athletics system is much different than that of America.

For soccer players rarely can go pro out of highschool, only if they have already signed a contract (I believe its called a futures or developmental contract) with a team that they have played in the youth team of. Otherwise the only real rule of the MLS draft is that you can only be drafted out of NCAA. Obviously they can go pro elsewhere but this is like tennis and golf where it isn't "Ok i graduated now I'm going to go pro."

I know far more about tennis in these scenarios as I've played and followed it all my life and at younger ages played against two Americans currently in the Top 150 in the world (yes they smoked me even back when we were 10).

 

[nathanw19]

I worded that poorly, you're absolutely correct. I'll try and elaborate a little more on what I meant though.

I don't count tennis or golf here because it isn't "Oh i'm done with highschool so now I'll go pro" - It is more of players going pro when they have competed in ITF tournaments and have seen an increase in rank so that they can get to Challenger tournaments. I don't know enough about the lower levels of golf to comment on what those lower level tournaments are called since I'm sure they aren't all directly run by the PGA.

In baseball yes a decent amount go pro but they go to the minors (Of course the players taken the first few rounds receive wonderful compensation but once you go lower down in the draft their bonuses are smaller) and don't make a livable wage once they get there. I think baseball is one of the toughest decisions because if you forego college to play pro you're giving up a lot for a small chance.

I always just assumed ice hockey was different because there are so many Canadian players from Canada involved and i know their college athletics system is much different than that of America.

For soccer players rarely can go pro out of highschool, only if they have already signed a contract (I believe its called a futures or developmental contract) with a team that they have played in the youth team of. Otherwise the only real rule of the MLS draft is that you can only be drafted out of NCAA. Obviously they can go pro elsewhere but this is like tennis and golf where it isn't "Ok i graduated now I'm going to go pro."

I know far more about tennis in these scenarios as I've played and followed it all my life and at younger ages played against two Americans currently in the Top 150 in the world (yes they smoked me even back when we were 10).

I follow soccer pretty religiously, and our NCAA system, in my opinion, is holding back our development as a country. In other countries, kids sign “professional” deals at 15/16, giving them access to high quality training. In the US, kids are reluctant to sign said contracts because then they become ineligible for college. This in turn is causing American pro teams not to invest in training youths in their academies as vigorously as their European counterparts, because the players aren’t under contract, and therefore are free to sign with whatever European team they wish without compensation to the American club. There have been a few high profile examples recently with Christian Pulisic, Weston McKennie, Josh Sargeant, etc. it’s a trend that is only continuing as European clubs look to the US for realistic prospects.

On the other end, it’s stunting the growth of the USA players, as 15-18 is a very important developmental period for players, and right now, the US training is far behind our world counterparts. Players regularly break through to the first team ages 18-20 and maybe even younger in lower professional leagues. American players aren’t nearly as prepared (except the distinct few mentioned above).

Anyway, back to Richmond Basketball...

 

[plydogg]

I'm a big soccer fan as well and I couldn't agree with you any more. Now for Richmond soccer!! Oh wait...

 

[nathanw19]

I'm a big soccer fan as well and I couldn't agree with you any more. Now for Richmond soccer!! Oh wait...

It was sad, but the guys I know from the team hated the coach. I played club, and half our team were former Richmond soccer players.

On a related note, I was sad when I visited the Gym this winter to not see any evidence of a club soccer team (for guys). We were always loosely organized, but at the same time very good. Maybe the loose organization caught up to us...

 

[3genspider]

I follow soccer pretty religiously, and our NCAA system, in my opinion, is holding back our development as a country. In other countries, kids sign “professional” deals at 15/16, giving them access to high quality training. In the US, kids are reluctant to sign said contracts because then they become ineligible for college. This in turn is causing American pro teams not to invest in training youths in their academies as vigorously as their European counterparts, because the players aren’t under contract, and therefore are free to sign with whatever European team they wish without compensation to the American club. There have been a few high profile examples recently with Christian Pulisic, Weston McKennie, Josh Sargeant, etc. it’s a trend that is only continuing as European clubs look to the US for realistic prospects.

On the other end, it’s stunting the growth of the USA players, as 15-18 is a very important developmental period for players, and right now, the US training is far behind our world counterparts. Players regularly break through to the first team ages 18-20 and maybe even younger in lower professional leagues. American players aren’t nearly as prepared (except the distinct few mentioned above).

Anyway, back to Richmond Basketball...

" There have been a few high profile examples recently with Christian Pulisic, Weston McKennie, Josh Sargeant, etc. it’s a trend that is only continuing as European clubs look to the US for realistic prospects"
And from Midlothian area, although not quite as high a profile....Nick Tatigue

 

[WebSpinner]

know I and believe a ton of other regular students would give their right, or left, arms, to be on an athletic scholie during college. football and basketball are huge revenue producers and a ton of that money goes to pay for the other hundreds of student athletes on full or partial scholies in non-revenue sports and to run those programs financially (coaches, travel, etc.) personally do not want college kids getting paid just because they help produce that money. they get a free education and look around at one of our country's biggest debt probs, college loans and the kids who have to pay off a huge amount of money upon graduation. as someone mentioned above, nobody is forcing them to be a slave or anything else. they can choose to take a free ride and what goes along with it or can opt out at any time. are there some archaic rules which are stupid and make no sense, you better believe it and that is what they need to get rid of as opposed to some of this other stuff. they need to streamline some things and they need to let coaches know that they will be gone for life if they play in the gutters along with the aau coaches and the like.

 

[CarolinaSpider]

My thoughts are that there should be some type of basic educational program
for any potential pro athlete in any college program like "Life 101" which encompasses
some business courses like finance, Econ and a simplified accounting course and may
be business law( Judge David White at UR was a piece of work). In addition there should
be courses in public speaking and communication.

If this takes a two year minimum, then so be it. But there has to be something that prepares
these athletes better for being on their own, versus depending on an agent.

 

[nathanw19]

My thoughts are that there should be some type of basic educational program
for any potential pro athlete in any college program like "Life 101" which encompasses
some business courses like finance, Econ and a simplified accounting course and may
be business law( Judge David White at UR was a piece of work). In addition there should
be courses in public speaking and communication.

If this takes a two year minimum, then so be it. But there has to be something that prepares
these athletes better for being on their own, versus depending on an agent.

Been saying for years that you should be able to major in “athletics.” Don’t know what it would be called, would be a pre-med like program where you would have to apply to get into, and you couldn’t have your entire sports teams do it. But it would include things like you said, I would also include coaching and trainer type classes, film cutting and analysis classes, etc etc. college is supposed to help prepare you for a career, and athletics are now a viable career (either as a player, coach, analysis, trainer, etc), so schools should be looking to prepare their “students.”

 

[CarolinaSpider]

Been saying for years that you should be able to major in “athletics.” Don’t know what it would be called, would be a pre-med like program where you would have to apply to get into, and you couldn’t have your entire sports teams do it. But it would include things like you said, I would also include coaching and trainer type classes, film cutting and analysis classes, etc etc. college is supposed to help prepare you for a career, and athletics are now a viable career (either as a player, coach, analysis, trainer, etc), so schools should be looking to prepare their “students.”

But also to tag on to your thoughts, enough education that allows you to maximize your income post athletic career such as investments or starting and running a business. There are so many athletes who have bankrupted on millions of dollars because either they had a bad agent or did not stay involved with their own finances or both.

 

[I-M-UR]

They fell short of making change to the biggest reason for all the illicit activity: the money. In fact, they went out of their way to say that wasn’t what they were trying to do, which to me screams they were given direction not to come back with players should be given money.

Until they either share revenue with their employees (the players) in salary or some variation of the Olympic model (allowing use of their likeness by signing endorsement deals), the issues will persist. There is just too much money at stake. Make it above board and regulate it if you must, but trying to keep players from earning money legitimately in the eyes of the NCAA will just continue to lead to players to earn in more illicit ways and backeoom deals.

If they want to get paid they can go to the minor leagues. (if the minor leagues aren't adequate the the major leagues need to step up and spend the money to get them up to speed) You've got to remember yes the college benefits from the players by selling tickets, etc (donations are an entirely different thing), but players also benefit by getting the exposure that improves their chances of playing pro (plus and education) You start paying any college athletes and you'll very quickly have to pay them all.

 

[spider fan]

Or we could go to the setup in some countries where sports and education are separate enterprises and let Sports Backers handle all sporting events. That will happen the same time worldwide "football" and American "football" become the same - not in our lifetimes.....................

 

[nathanw19]

If they want to get paid they can go to the minor leagues. (if the minor leagues aren't adequate the the major leagues need to step up and spend the money to get them up to speed) You've got to remember yes the college benefits from the players by selling tickets, etc (donations are an entirely different thing), but players also benefit by getting the exposure that improves their chances of playing pro (plus and education) You start paying any college athletes and you'll very quickly have to pay them all.

I’m fine with paying them all, but I understand people’s trepidation on completely switching to paying all athletes.

If I were to “fix” it, I would say scholarships (plus stipends) are “pay”, then would allow players to sign whatever sponsorship deals/signings for money/ whatever else they want to make money from sources that aren’t the university (aka the Olympic model). This would also include allowing players to have legal representation (aka certified agents) for helping them with these decisions.

I think it’s the best of both worlds. Schools can still call them “student-athletes” and don’t accept more liability that paying them would entail, but at the same time players can begin to make money off their likeness/celebrity.

 

[SpiderRick]

I worded that poorly, you're absolutely correct. I'll try and elaborate a little more on what I meant though.

I don't count tennis or golf here because it isn't "Oh i'm done with highschool so now I'll go pro" - It is more of players going pro when they have competed in ITF tournaments and have seen an increase in rank so that they can get to Challenger tournaments. I don't know enough about the lower levels of golf to comment on what those lower level tournaments are called since I'm sure they aren't all directly run by the PGA.

In baseball yes a decent amount go pro but they go to the minors (Of course the players taken the first few rounds receive wonderful compensation but once you go lower down in the draft their bonuses are smaller) and don't make a livable wage once they get there. I think baseball is one of the toughest decisions because if you forego college to play pro you're giving up a lot for a small chance.

I always just assumed ice hockey was different because there are so many Canadian players from Canada involved and i know their college athletics system is much different than that of America.

For soccer players rarely can go pro out of highschool, only if they have already signed a contract (I believe its called a futures or developmental contract) with a team that they have played in the youth team of. Otherwise the only real rule of the MLS draft is that you can only be drafted out of NCAA. Obviously they can go pro elsewhere but this is like tennis and golf where it isn't "Ok i graduated now I'm going to go pro."

I know far more about tennis in these scenarios as I've played and followed it all my life and at younger ages played against two Americans currently in the Top 150 in the world (yes they smoked me even back when we were 10).

Nice to see some very rare tennis chatter on the board. Keep this up and I may not have to self ban.

 

[plydogg]

Nice to see some very rare tennis chatter on the board. Keep this up and I may not have to self ban.

Ha! If you've ever watched Ernesto Escobedo or Taylor Fritz those are the two I'm talking about.

Played against Ernesto many a time as a kid and one of my good friend's younger sister is married to Taylor Fritz. I absolutely love tennis. Probably my favorite sport to play as well as watch.

 

[SpiderRick]

You're a kid! Those two have got a future. I played a lot when I was younger but not so much at 69. My younger brother however (now 60) who is a former touring pro, still plays competitively in ITF senior events. When he was 55 he won the ITF World Championship and was ranked #1 in Men's 55.

Wife and I are going down under in January to see the Australian Open.

Wow am I really off topic!

 

[keefusb]

And from Midlothian area, although not quite as high a profile....Nick Tatigue

Don't forget Christian's cousin Will Pulisic. He signed a professional contract with Dortmund a couple years ago, wasn't offered a long-term deal and now plays for Duke. Also Chris Durkin who plays for DC United and has been an important member of several Junior US National Teams.

Richmond area has produced several high-profile professional soccer players over the past 10-20 years.

Anyway, back to the topic. The NCAA is an anachronism. I expect at some point the big football/basketball schools will break away from the NCAA and do their own thing. The NCAA will eventually dry up and blow away when that happens.

 

[SpiderK]

Wow, look how far our basketball program has fallen. We have resorted to discussing soccer a sport we don’t even have. Is curling next?