Does Mickey Have the Right Idea??
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Lots of good points. No doubt the CAA is a better fit than the current 4 conference affiliations. Could get down to a single affiliation. Of course, basketball is the issue and the desire to “step up” was exactly the reason the move was made to the A10. Based on the last couple years, it does seem that the belief that the A10 gives UR a better shot at the NCAAs is fools gold. Seems to me, UR could strive to be the “Gonzaga” of the East if it moved back to the CAA.
It’s an interesting perspective. As it relates to basketball, the argument could be made that the only reason that a CAA reaffiliation looks good is because several teams left to compete at a higher level, it’s hard to argue that VCU joining the A10 hasn’t benefitted them for example.
regarding “it’s not hard”, I think it’s very hard to just reassemble the caa. Extracting the teams he proposes from their current leagues is challenging and booting other teams from the current caa would be painful. So it is hard.
regarding “it’s not hard”, I think it’s very hard to just reassemble the caa. Extracting the teams he proposes from their current leagues is challenging and booting other teams from the current caa would be painful. So it is hard.
The A10 has teams that are known nationally in basketball. No one nationally knows who's in the CAA. We wouldn't be able to recruit at the level we seem to have reached the past two years if we were in the CAA, point blank. Does it make more sense for other sports? Probably. But the reason we left hasn't changed in 20 years.
As for the first statement, I think that is a stretch. The teams that UR joined the A10 for are gone. Who is the “big name” now? Dayton because of this year? VCU who was part of the CAA? Davidson who was the lead team in the Southern conference? Rhode Island who seems to be transfer U? The student turnout seems to be the best barometer. They show for whichever team happens to be the best that particular year, plus VCU, a regional rival, which is exactly Matthews point.
Second point, yes I know that is the “factor”; however, I think the rationale is shaky. As Tbone said, any reconfiguration will take significant effort and in such effort there could be additional quality basketball schools. In addition to VCU a former member, you could get Davidson to join for example.
Very JMU centric article. He mentions George Mason, VCU, and UR leaving the A10 to join CAA basketball. Why would 3 teams leave a shared conference to all rejoin an old one? It would make more sense, basketball wise, to get rid of Fordham +1 (la salle maybe?) and allow JMU and ODU to join the A10.
He also says fans don’t get excited for these long distance matchups, citing saint bonaventure for us. Personally, I get more excited to play the bonnies in basketball than I do to play JMU, because the quality of JMU basketball has been so low in recent years. I want to play teams that are good, regardless of their location. In the future, if JMU gets better (seems likely with their new coach and new basketball stadium) then of course I’d get excited to play them as well.
He also says fans don’t get excited for these long distance matchups, citing saint bonaventure for us. Personally, I get more excited to play the bonnies in basketball than I do to play JMU, because the quality of JMU basketball has been so low in recent years. I want to play teams that are good, regardless of their location. In the future, if JMU gets better (seems likely with their new coach and new basketball stadium) then of course I’d get excited to play them as well.
The piece from the Mickster has a ton of valid points. They will only become more valid as athletic departments in the A10 and CAA trim programs and overhead.
The current math doesn't work for most and certainly won't work in the future.
The current math doesn't work for most and certainly won't work in the future.
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I didn't say every team, but yes, Dayton, VCU, Rhode Island, St. Louis, us. Those are a lot more recognizable than Towson, Elon, Delaware and Hofstra. I have no interest in going back to that in basketball.
Richmond not making the NCAA since 2011 (we very well could have made it this year) had nothing to do with conference affiliation and all to do with performance. Its very possible to get bids out of the a10, you just have to earn them.
The football arrangement makes sense, probably does for other non-basketball sports, but doesn't seem to benefit who we say we want to be in basketball.
The football arrangement makes sense, probably does for other non-basketball sports, but doesn't seem to benefit who we say we want to be in basketball.
Although it is presently struggling, St. Joe's has more history in its program and is more well-known throughout the country than the entire CAA.
I agree, and not only do we not land this year's class if in the CAA, but, I don't think we land guys like Jacob, Grant, and Burton, and Blake and Crabtree likely don't transfer to the CAA. And, we certainly would not be getting preseason top 25 love in the CAA right now, even if the stars aligned and we had a really special looking team like we do now.
I definitely think our lacrosse program should be in the CAA. And, everything else with one exception,
basketball. Mickey said Villanova should be included in everything except basketball and their affiliation with the Big East.
I think Richmond belongs in everything except for its affiliation with the A-10 in basketball.
basketball. Mickey said Villanova should be included in everything except basketball and their affiliation with the Big East.
I think Richmond belongs in everything except for its affiliation with the A-10 in basketball.
Of course, Villanova would not be allowed to leave the Big East in everything else and stay for basketball only, but I guess when you're Mickey Matthews and just pulling things out of your ass, it makes perfect sense...
Mickey did pull some things out of his rear. Yet lots of what he said made perfect sense. The problem is, any changes that actually happen will involve multiple universities, who sponsor multiple sports, have multiple big boosters who give money, and have tons of employees and alumni who will be affected by any changes. Given the current situation with the pandemic, etc., I don't know what any of the solutions are to these problems (that are guaranteed to work). The college athletics environment is a mess. Any changes that are made (that can be considered solutions) will be made 1) after a number of universities have to drop sports or pare down their football and basketball programs and 2) after some universities' athletic programs can't survive - and after some universities don't survive themselves.
I was in a discussion with Rich Morrill, E. Bruce, and Chuck Boone around five years ago where Dr. Morrill listed some universities that he felt wouldn't last another ten years - because every effort to encourage them to change the way they did business was rejected. How may athletic programs did the same thing? Look at how big football schools are hemorrhaging money. Tennessee's athletic program was $170 million in debt at one point (look up the ESPN article).
The changes that will be made will come SLOWLY. Nothing will be done quickly. And everybody is watching everybody else - and the bigwigs are talking behind the scenes. I just hope we have football and basketball this year at UR.
Agree with this and same logic applies to UR and the A10. Also, I am not saying that basketball would be totally unaffected by the move to the CAA. Simply saying that the A10 is only slightly better. Also, it is just going to get harder and harder to get at-large bids. This season is a perfect example. In a “much improved” A10, there were serious doubts about getting more than one team in the tournament.
If you really wanted to “step up” you would say UR competes in CAA in all sports except for basketball, where it competes in the Big East. The logic being of course that Villanova plays in the CAA for football, so Richmond in the Big East is the reciprocal agreement.
In some areas hes not wrong, but hes looking at the decisions from how it hurt the league and not how it benefited the schools that left. Id love to see UMASS and ODU back in the CAA for football.
UCONN got thrown out of the AAC for football. It needs a home now since Huskies go to the Big East for all non-football.
The A10 was the eighth best league in the country this season out of 32. The CAA was 16th. The year before the A10 was 11th and CAA 18th. Those are not insignificant differences. The A10 is a much better league.
I don’t disagree that for some of our sports, a CAA fit makes sense. I’m just saying it makes no sense for the one sport that will always drive our athletic department.
Instead of using "league rankings" as comparison tool, wouldnt the more relevant metrics at this point be 1) tv revenue share, 2) anticipated ncaa revenue share, 3) anticipated gate revenue and 4) applicable travel costs for all sports?
Re: #1: there isnt going to be much difference in tv money in either the A10 or in Mickeys proposed CAA because of cord-cutting and over-saturatiom of programming. Maybe a couple hundred thousand bucks a year now? That amount surely narrows in the future.
Re: #2: it,would be hard to argue that ncaa revenue has mattered for UR in the A10. If the "Mickey plan" is a serious consideration, now would actually be a perfect jumping off point for UR because our NCAA share is currently meager. To add, who knows what ncaa rev share actually looks like in the future as the ncaa tries to bolster itself from o'bannon lawsuit and the lost revenue of this past school year?
Now what does the cost of sending women's tennis for a weekend trip to Saint louis - in a non-chartered airplane, mind you - look like versus bussing them to Goo Moo? Multiply that across all our sports all academic year.
The "Mickey plan" probably ain't happening but if does end up on the table, i'd have a hard time imagining "rpi rankings" is a metric discussed extensively in a BOT meeting. Particularly when schools like VCU, ODU, UR would be bolstering the RPI of the new league.
A school like Saint Louis has to be looking at this harder than UR. They are an outpost in the A10. Why are they flying tennis teams when a regional MVC plays its hoops conf tourney in their city?
Re: #1: there isnt going to be much difference in tv money in either the A10 or in Mickeys proposed CAA because of cord-cutting and over-saturatiom of programming. Maybe a couple hundred thousand bucks a year now? That amount surely narrows in the future.
Re: #2: it,would be hard to argue that ncaa revenue has mattered for UR in the A10. If the "Mickey plan" is a serious consideration, now would actually be a perfect jumping off point for UR because our NCAA share is currently meager. To add, who knows what ncaa rev share actually looks like in the future as the ncaa tries to bolster itself from o'bannon lawsuit and the lost revenue of this past school year?
Now what does the cost of sending women's tennis for a weekend trip to Saint louis - in a non-chartered airplane, mind you - look like versus bussing them to Goo Moo? Multiply that across all our sports all academic year.
The "Mickey plan" probably ain't happening but if does end up on the table, i'd have a hard time imagining "rpi rankings" is a metric discussed extensively in a BOT meeting. Particularly when schools like VCU, ODU, UR would be bolstering the RPI of the new league.
A school like Saint Louis has to be looking at this harder than UR. They are an outpost in the A10. Why are they flying tennis teams when a regional MVC plays its hoops conf tourney in their city?
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NCAA revenue for each school in a conference is partly a function of how many teams in the league get in and how far they advance in the tournament. For us, the A10 gets us more exposure and money. Where I think you may start to see shifts will be in conferences in far-flung conferences, but also at schools who upgraded to FBS (e.g., ODU) which required many more scholarships, giving up regional rivalries and expensive travel for all of their sports. Anyone outside the P5 will not see a significant bowl game and certainly not a final four appearance.
Huh? Agreed on football but there have been a slew of non-P5 final four participants in recent memory. One of the advantages of the format is it doesn’t rely purely on historical conference alignments or selection committees in order for non-P5 teams to have a shot at glory.
I think you might be confused-understandably. We’re talking football and the basketball boards.
Now does his comment make sense?
Yes, agreed, I’ve never heard the CFP referred to as the final four, it’s just the CFP.
Things change. Wouldn’t surprise me if football & basketball affiliations ultimately are different than the rest of the revenue sports. Even for the P5, spread out conferences aren’t the best for the non-revenue sports. Not saying it would be an easy transition but things will look different in 5 years
Excellent points MolivaManiac.
Eight, all I know is the A10 is not perceived the same way now that it was when Richmond joined in 2000. Most likely there are going to be another round of conference realignments at some point due to the fiscal situations that the athletic departments are finding themselves in. I definitely didn't say that the situation was better for UR basketball in the CAA, but I don't think it would be catastrophic either. The point is that it would not just be UR moving into the CAA. Other teams would be shifting as well and the A10 could easily end up "just like" the CAA. Just for fun, since there is nothing going on sports wise, let's say the following happen:
1) Dayton leaves A10 for Big East (They are a better match than UR unfortunately).
2) St. Louis moves to MVC as Moliva suggested.
Then we have some other "regional" moves:
3) UR, VCU, George Mason, and Davidson move to CAA
4) Delaware, Drexel, Hofstra, and Northeastern move to A10
All of the sudden the 2 leagues look almost identical RPI-wise using last year's standings.
Eight, all I know is the A10 is not perceived the same way now that it was when Richmond joined in 2000. Most likely there are going to be another round of conference realignments at some point due to the fiscal situations that the athletic departments are finding themselves in. I definitely didn't say that the situation was better for UR basketball in the CAA, but I don't think it would be catastrophic either. The point is that it would not just be UR moving into the CAA. Other teams would be shifting as well and the A10 could easily end up "just like" the CAA. Just for fun, since there is nothing going on sports wise, let's say the following happen:
1) Dayton leaves A10 for Big East (They are a better match than UR unfortunately).
2) St. Louis moves to MVC as Moliva suggested.
Then we have some other "regional" moves:
3) UR, VCU, George Mason, and Davidson move to CAA
4) Delaware, Drexel, Hofstra, and Northeastern move to A10
All of the sudden the 2 leagues look almost identical RPI-wise using last year's standings.
Well now that's a completely different hypothetical from what Matthews is suggesting. He thinks we should just up and leave the A10 now proactively. I think that's a ridiculous notion for basketball, and basketball drives the bus here.
In fact, I suspect we would cut other sports before we moved basketball back to the CAA proactively. If this is all about money, then we have the most opportunity to turn major profit with basketball, plain and simple. No other sport comes close. Of course, that requires us to win and make the tournament somewhat regularly, and we finally seem on pace to start doing that again.
But if Dayton, SLU, Rhody, VCU and Davidson all leave the league, the discussion is entirely different. In that case, sure, find the best regional league you can and jump in. Or look to add to the A10 with some of those regional teams.
To one of Mickey's terrible points... I'd much rather watch us play Bonaventure (here, there or on the moon) any day than watch us play JMU. Bonaventure is a damn good program. JMU is horrific. If the way to make the CAA better is to bring half the A-10, then the A-10 must not be so bad, eh?
I know we’re talking hypotheticals but has a shift of the magnitude described here happened in recent memory? I mean we are talking about 4+ programs simultaneously ejecting from their current affiliations to another already existing one. The closest approximation was when the old Big East realigned Into the BE and the AAC.
I’m sure there’s a scenario where you move the right teams back to the CAA and it doesn’t hurt b-ball horribly but it’s a way out edge case.
I’m sure there’s a scenario where you move the right teams back to the CAA and it doesn’t hurt b-ball horribly but it’s a way out edge case.
As I said earlier- move everything to the CAA, except basketball. We stay in the A-10 for bb.
CAA won’t take that deal. Can’t think of a single Basketball program in the nation that has an associate membership for basketball only.
"Just for fun, since there is nothing going on sports wise, let's say the following happen:"
A direct swap, Northeastern to the A-10, UR to the CAA. Both for all sports (if the conference sponsors the sport).
What do you see as the effect on Basketball in that scenario?
Out of curiosity, is anybody able to pull up pretty quickly the conference ranking in basketball of the CAA and A10 at the time of our move vs. their ranks last year? I know it oversimplifies things to just look at that. But with all the changes in recent years this may be a good bird's eye view of whether our conference affiliation is helping our basketball profile much at this point.
In 2000-01, our final year in the CAA, the A-10 was ranked 8th and the CAA 14th by conference RPI. This year, the A-10 was 8th and the CAA 16th.
If we're in a worse league, we're not going to continue recruiting as if we are in a better league. Maybe the first year we were to move down, we'd have a significant talent advantage. But a bunch of our good players would transfer rather than play in a one-bid league. And the guys we would otherwise be able to recruit in the A10 would not answer their phones when we came calling from the CAA. Just the truth.
Perhaps. I guess it depends on where you are recruiting from. My point is unless your team is in a “P6” league, you are an also ran. It really doesn’t matter if you are in the next best league or not. I didn’t listen to the new podcast with Mooney yet, but based on the article, he is saying that scheduling is his major concern even though he is in the A10. Being in the A10 simply isn’t enough for an at-large bid and as I said in an earlier post it isn’t going to get any easier. The “big boys” are closing the gates. Like it or not, for a non P5/P6 to get into the NCAAs a win is going to be required in a conference tournament and it doesn’t matter what that conference is.
As far as non P6 recruiting, the conference may help, but I don’t think it is the first thing on the list. I think coach, opportunity to play, program success, fan base, facilities, and a chance to make the NCAA tournament are all above conference. I am not even sure how you can rank recruiting in a non P6 conference. I hope it isn’t based on NBA prospects. If so, there has been 1 Spider that has gone to the NBA, since UR has been in the A10. What a difference a conference makes.
As far as non P6 recruiting, the conference may help, but I don’t think it is the first thing on the list. I think coach, opportunity to play, program success, fan base, facilities, and a chance to make the NCAA tournament are all above conference. I am not even sure how you can rank recruiting in a non P6 conference. I hope it isn’t based on NBA prospects. If so, there has been 1 Spider that has gone to the NBA, since UR has been in the A10. What a difference a conference makes.
So, why couldn’t we be the first. Besides, does Villanova have anything in the Big East other than basketball?
Basketball is the cornerstone of the NCAA, and all conferences are required to sponsor men's and women's basketball. I can't imagine a scenario where a full member of a conference would be permitted to play basketball in a different conference.
Villanova is a full member of the Big East. The only sports they play in other conferences are ones the Big East doesn't sponsor...football (CAA), women's rowing (CAA), and women's water polo (MAAC).
