Best Team in UR History

[SpiderTrap]

Steenberge and Bucknor were All-A10 players. Not saying first team - but definetley 2nd or 3rd team guys. Sylla and Pete Thomas - role players who could hold their own in A10. By that I mean - I didn't expect them to win games for us, but certainly didn't think they would lose them for us either. Remember last year when we would play our depleted bench - you just knew they were outmatched. Never felt like that with Thomas, Sylla, or Moliva.

Again - not saying the cupboard was loaded, just don't think it was empty. And I don't disagree with Mooney's approach. Sure - he could have tried to adjust his system to fit those guys - but I think he knew that would make the transition longer. So he ran his system and it took about 2-3 years before it really took hold, but by year 4 - we were looking up. And in year 5 - he made NCAA.

I think any new coach, you give them 5 years. Not saying you can't fire them after 3 or 4 - but that would only happen if you see no improvement. But you could see the improvement with Mooney from year 2 to 3 and 3 to 4. I think if you see a drop down or no improvement - maybe you make a switch. But in reality - you need 5 years with any new coach to see if they got it.

 

[Spiders05]

@SFspidur - there was a kid. I seem to remember him as being from the Caribbean but I'm sure that's wrong. He was a PG, I believe. He got into a fight with one of the guys while on a campus visit. Mooney pulled the offer. Of course, it's been 15 years, so details may be a little off.

 

[GKiller]

Beilein didn't win anything in the A10? Made the NIT and had a good run there - but its not like Wainwright was given a top 25 team or bunch of returning players. Wainwrights first year he basically had Skrocki, Dobbins, and Jeff Myers. Unfortunately - Reggie Brown and Zwayer were injured and never the same. Following year - basically lost Myers and added Merrit and Moliva.
Just saying - its not like Beilein left Wainwright a stacked team. He had some options, but nothing eye popping by any means.

Disagree thought he was given NCAA type roster imo. Also had other Beilein pieces Bucknor, Jamaal Scott, Steeneberge, O'Malley, Jonathan Collins who had solid role junior year under JB the year before. Reggie & Zwayer did have injuries, Zwayer's started under JB, Reggie was out JW's first year but helped us the following. Cut out some potential but they still helped team overall.

We were coming off NIT team w good young talent who had been in A10 finals & lost only Ungerer. We were a Cadillac as JW admitted himself. Different way to play & granted we did ultimately pick it up 2nd half of 03-04, prior to that I thought we underachieved. what got us to NCAA is when we stopped treating Merritt like the alpha dog. Took JW a while to realize what we had in guys like Skrock and Dobbins imo & when Dobbins took over that point role we were much better. Merritt was ok he was only frosh but it was too much too soon. Always thought he mismanaged Bucknor pt too who I thought was a stud. Different teams and rosters but see Goose and Burton to some extent.

Ultimately Ole Jer made NCAA I just think roster he inherited was legit. For most part the players seemed to like & respect him which is no easy task. His scheduling was legit. Could use some of that. Not a fan of his schtick or in game coaching myself but everyone has positives & negatives. And sman is right ultimately it's like who did he get that did anything here. They all left, got in trouble or just not that good. Merritt, Sandoval, Courtney Nelson, Crank, Mayes, Sylla, Monty Sanders. Moliva was the only decent hit. I do agree he got screwed on Vassallo deal. Epic mistake and one we didn't learn from. When that was going down I ran into Winiecki at OTB on Broad Street (that place still around?) Cut us some clack it was right before Derby. Asked him what was up & his response was ominous, knew we weren't getting him in.

Are JB and JW viewed differently because of how rest of their careers went? I guess sure. But for me and I think many others how their careers went was easily predicted. I expected JB to succeed, I expected JW to fail simply based on what I witnessed at UR. It didn't change my view, it validated my view.

 

[SFspidur]

Thanks, 05. I have a vague recollection of that now that you mention it, but nothing to add to it.

 

[SpiderTrap]

I just look at JW in a vacuum. Cause frankly when a coach leaves UR I could cAre less if they succeed or fail. JW has 3 years here at UR. One NIT and one NCAA that I think was the first at large bid UR was ever given? But more importantly he has one of the top 5 wins in UR history in Kansas. I think he got screwed with Vassallo and that ultimately made both sides want out. But his time at UR in my eye were productive But I also value post-season appearances above everything.

 

[urfan1]

Pretty sure 86 was an at large year -- if I recall correctly Navy won the bid. That was the year we were on a roll until John Davis broke his elbow

 

[97spiderfan]

I just look at JW in a vacuum. Cause frankly when a coach leaves UR I could cAre less if they succeed or fail. JW has 3 years here at UR. One NIT and one NCAA that I think was the first at large bid UR was ever given? But more importantly he has one of the top 5 wins in UR history in Kansas. I think he got screwed with Vassallo and that ultimately made both sides want out. But his time at UR in my eye were productive But I also value post-season appearances above everything.

Whichever, pencil pocketed weenie in admissions who denied AD Vassallo, I still would like to have my 5 minutes alone with them.

 

[Ferrum Spider]

I dont think Mooney's cupboard was as bare as people think when he started - the biggest issue was not the cupboard being bare - just that the pieces he had did not fit his system at all.

Mooney's first year he had the following players.
Kevin Steenberge
Jermaine Bucknor
Peter Thomas
Oumar Sylla
Gaston Moliva
Drew Crank
Jarhon Giddings
Ryan Butler

I would argue that Steenberge and Bucknor were all league caliber players as seniors. Thomas and Sylla were good enough to hold their own and be good role players. Moliva was coming off injury. Crank looked promising in Wainwrights system. Issue was we had no guards outside of Peter Thomas. And decided to redshirt Butler.

Maybe could have found someone to fill the guard position in recruiting - but that spot went to Butler so I can't argue too much. Not saying this was a great roster by any means - but when you are given to all league players and two solid role players in Thomas and Sylla - i don't think the cupboard is bare. The problem was the ingredients in the cupboard did not match the recipe the chef was trying to make.

And that is the question for all new coaches when they take over a team - do they try to win now with what they got or implement their system and sacrifice a year or two in the process like Mooney did. It worked for Mooney - we got to back to back appearances. But for some coaches it does not work.

Depth. Add in that Mooney was hired a little later and all the admissions problems under JW probably wouldn’t allow for adding a ton of scholarship players in May.

It’s been so long but those the only scholarship players on that team at the time and one was a former walk on? Other than Monty Sanders I cant think of any. Sorry if you only have 8 scholarship players several of which had injury issues (Crank, Butler) that year when the rest the a10 is sporting 12-13 that’s pretty rough to work with. 13-17 seems about right with that team as a result though. Remember almost beating Louisville with Peter Thomas as our starting PG. No offense to Peter but he’s no where near the caliber PG that Mooney has had to work with since.

 

[Ferrum Spider]

@SFspidur - there was a kid. I seem to remember him as being from the Caribbean but I'm sure that's wrong. He was a PG, I believe. He got into a fight with one of the guys while on a campus visit. Mooney pulled the offer. Of course, it's been 15 years, so details may be a little off.

Jose Garcia out of St. Anne’s Belfield. Didn’t know that’s why he didn’t wind up here.

 

[SFspidur]

Jose Garcia out of St. Anne’s Belfield. Didn’t know that’s why he didn’t wind up here.

Ah, yep. As I recall, he had some transcript issues due to his travels. Ended up signing with Charleston, but I believe he only lasted a year and played just a handful of games before transferring out to a JUCO or something.

 

[Spiders05]

Yup, that was the one. Great memory.

 

[Spiders05]

https://basketballrecruiting.rivals.com/news/garcia-ends-recruitment/printable

 

[urmite]

https://basketballrecruiting.rivals.com/news/garcia-ends-recruitment/printable

From the article
" ...knew he had found the perfect college after his official visit with the Spiders.
“It was just an incredible visit,” said Garcia. “Even though a lot of other schools were still recruiting me like Florida State, Michigan State, Louisville, and Vanderbilt, I just knew that Richmond had everything I wanted in a school.” "

I assume a different visit?

 

[SpiderTrap]

Forgot about the Garcia recruit. Interesting to see he was ranked 97. Including Merritt. That would have been two top 100 recruits. Just mentioning it because that always seems to the blanket benchmark in recruiting in the A10 - can you get top 100 guys.

 

[spider23]

Well Trap, as I think about it we are probably going to have more luck with top 200 -300. I think we had Bacote as a top 100 - later transferred to Alabama or Georgia. Milton Bell as a transfer. Curtis Blair was probably that level but they did not rank top 100 then I don't believe. If we can get to the Gonzaga/St. Mary's/Wichita/VCU/SDSU type level (which we should aspire but have had no support from AD's and Mooney has 0 expectations it seems) we can try to bring in these guys. But very hard at the moment, and we do well if we get guys in the 100-200 range that have some nice talent, without the baggage.

 

[Spiders05]

I assume a different visit?

Yes, the article was written in May '04 after his official visit. The visit I was referencing was after Mooney had taken over in '05.

 

[VT4700]

Back to the thread title, we will never know, but I think this very well might have been the best team in our history. Had we gotten an 11 seed, I could certainly see us beating a 6 and a 3, especially when you look at who some of the 3s and 6s might have been this year. Do that, along with a couple conference tourney wins, and we are looking at a 28 win, sweet 16 team.

I felt we were playing really good basketball down the stretch, and would have been a really tough out in the tournament. This team checked a lot of boxes for being a great team. Great point guard, great big, depth, 3-point shooting, defense, chemistry, experience, and a number of different guys who can score. Bottom line is this was a special team who unfortunately did not have a chance to show what they could do in the dance, but already proved they are one of the best teams in our history.

 

[SpiderTrap]

I don't think this years team was a top 3 team. The lack of defense is a huge concern - especially come tourney time. I think they were an NCAA team, but not sure they were capable of making a run. What I think they really missed this year was the experience gained by playing in the tourney - because lets say they made it this year, which I think they would have - and even if they lost first round - with every one returning, have that experience would have been huge and I think really set UR up for a deep run next season.

As for top 100 recruits - I don't see them in UR's future. Unfortunately - those kids usually don't meet the academic standards, and when they do - they are poached by bigger and better schools. But I think if you can recruit and get kids in that 70-100 range - you have the possibility of "reloading" years rather than "rebuilding" years. Typically those top 100 kids are able to make an impact right away - whereas a kid 200-300 might turn out to be very good or even better - but needs a year or two to get ready.

Everyone complained about Mooney not making the tourney the last 8 years and that comes down to recruiting and players. Its not like last season - he made some major coaching overhaul and changed his offense or defense drastically. He just finally has 5 solid players who fit his system and who have played together for an extended period of time. He has made some minor tweaks along the way - but the real change from last year and those years we missed the tourney is the players. But the question will always be in the back of the mind - when these kids graduate - how long to rebuild?

 

[LongTimeLurkerFirstTimePoster]

I don't think this years team was a top 3 team. The lack of defense is a huge concern - especially come tourney time. I think they were an NCAA team, but not sure they were capable of making a run. What I think they really missed this year was the experience gained by playing in the tourney - because lets say they made it this year, which I think they would have - and even if they lost first round - with every one returning, have that experience would have been huge and I think really set UR up for a deep run next season.

As for top 100 recruits - I don't see them in UR's future. Unfortunately - those kids usually don't meet the academic standards, and when they do - they are poached by bigger and better schools. But I think if you can recruit and get kids in that 70-100 range - you have the possibility of "reloading" years rather than "rebuilding" years. Typically those top 100 kids are able to make an impact right away - whereas a kid 200-300 might turn out to be very good or even better - but needs a year or two to get ready.

Everyone complained about Mooney not making the tourney the last 8 years and that comes down to recruiting and players. Its not like last season - he made some major coaching overhaul and changed his offense or defense drastically. He just finally has 5 solid players who fit his system and who have played together for an extended period of time. He has made some minor tweaks along the way - but the real change from last year and those years we missed the tourney is the players. But the question will always be in the back of the mind - when these kids graduate - how long to rebuild?

you're right we weren't a Top 3 team. We finished 2nd.

 

[ChoppinBroccoli]

Everyone complained about Mooney not making the tourney the last 8 years and that comes down to recruiting and players. Its not like last season - he made some major coaching overhaul and changed his offense or defense drastically. He just finally has 5 solid players who fit his system and who have played together for an extended period of time. He has made some minor tweaks along the way - but the real change from last year and those years we missed the tourney is the players. But the question will always be in the back of the mind - when these kids graduate - how long to rebuild?

He scrapped the matchup. That's pretty drastic. After a learning curve - the first two shootouts - our defense looked better than it had in a long time.

 

[97spiderfan]

Back to the thread title, we will never know, but I think this very well might have been the best team in our history. Had we gotten an 11 seed, I could certainly see us beating a 6 and a 3, especially when you look at who some of the 3s and 6s might have been this year. Do that, along with a couple conference tourney wins, and we are looking at a 28 win, sweet 16 team.

I felt we were playing really good basketball down the stretch, and would have been a really tough out in the tournament. This team checked a lot of boxes for being a great team. Great point guard, great big, depth, 3-point shooting, defense, chemistry, experience, and a number of different guys who can score. Bottom line is this was a special team who unfortunately did not have a chance to show what they could do in the dance, but already proved they are one of the best teams in our history.

Much like Beilein's team that was denied entrance in the CAA tourney, despite being the number 1 seed in the CAA, this team will go down in history with a big asterick next to it. We will never know what this team's potential in postseason play is because they never had the opportunity. Disappointed that we didn't get to see this play out.

 

[spider23]

The good news is we return everyone (save Woj), so we will be one of, if the not THE most experienced teams in the country. No powerhouses in the A10 next year. Though that may hurt us unless we can get some good OOC. I know we have Kentucky - but this may be their most questionable year in the last 10. Really hope no disruptions to the season.

 

[SpiderTrap]

What’s happening to Wojcik?

 

[GKiller]

I don't think this years team was a top 3 team. The lack of defense is a huge concern - especially come tourney time. I think they were an NCAA team, but not sure they were capable of making a run.

weren't we the top team in A10 in defensive efficiency? Look at defensive ratings across the board kenpom, teamrankings etc. our D was there. Maybe the past few years are still on your mind, or you may be thinking of the very beginning of season when we struggled on D, but after that besides maybe a small handful of games (predictably the losses) we were good on D. We made a huge jump on D.

I believe we had what it takes to make a run but I was very bullish on the Spids all year. We'll never know. Not big on different era comparisons but NCAA carries lot of weight, as it should, so hard to match up with those with NCAA. But we had the goods.

 

[plydogg]

What’s happening to Wojcik?

He transferred to Fairfield

 

[urmite]

weren't we the top team in A10 in defensive efficiency? Look at defensive ratings across the board kenpom, teamrankings etc. our D was there. Maybe the past few years are still on your mind, or you may be thinking of the very beginning of season when we struggled on D, but after that besides maybe a small handful of games (predictably the losses) we were good on D. We made a huge jump on D.

I believe we had what it takes to make a run but I was very bullish on the Spids all year. We'll never know. Not big on different era comparisons but NCAA carries lot of weight, as it should, so hard to match up with those with NCAA. But we had the goods.

We were first during conference play, but fifth for the entire season. Still a very respectable 54th nationally, even including the first few games.