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Best Team in UR History

Spiders05

Spiders05

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May 12, 2003
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So, I've enjoyed looking at the lists people put out for the best players in UR history. I went to Sports-Reference's site to gather some information and noticed they had a metric to rate teams.

According to their Simple Rating System (the SRS takes into account average point differential and strength of schedule; 0 is average), this year's team had an 11.31, which is the best we had, going back to 1949. The undefeated 1934 team may have claim to be better, but looking through periods without SRS, I'm not seeing any other teams that may have a legitimate claim.

Here are the Top 10 Teams in UR history, as defined by the SRS metric (and 3rd party site):
  1. 2019/20 - 11.31
  2. 2010/11 - 11.23
  3. 2003/04 - 10.07
  4. 2009/10 - 10.03
  5. 2000/01 - 9.08
  6. 2014/15 - 8.65
  7. 1985/86 - 8.02
  8. 2015/16 - 7.28
  9. 2012/13 - 6.90
  10. 1991/92 - 6.38
I noted the following:
  • Only four of these teams danced - #1 & # 5 were both screwed by circumstances
  • #8 was a .500 year but we had our second most difficult schedule (only behind #3)
  • In 70 years, we've only had "Above Average" teams 31 times
  • Mooney had 6 of the Top 10, DT 2, JW 1, JB 1
  • The site also tracks SOS on a relative basis. We never consistently had SOS above 0 until we moved to the A-10.
 
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What happened to the #5 team that caused them to be screwed by circumstance? I was 6 years old then so was long before I knew what Richmond basketball was
 
Was 1997/98 #11?

Am I correct that 1993/94 was higher than 1989/90?
 
plydogg said:
What happened to the #5 team that caused them to be screwed by circumstance? I was 6 years old then so was long before I knew what Richmond basketball was
Click to expand...
Announced leaving CAA the following year, so banned from CAA tourney (was regular season champ). May have been first four out....
 
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Spiders05 said:
So, I've enjoyed looking at the lists people put out for the best players in UR history. I went to Sports-Reference's site to gather some information and noticed they had a metric to rate teams.

According to their Simple Rating System (the SRS takes into account average point differential and strength of schedule; 0 is average), this year's team had an 11.31, which is the best we had, going back to 1949. The undefeated 1934 team may have claim to be better, but looking through periods without SRS, I'm not seeing any other teams that may have a legitimate claim.

Here are the Top 10 Teams in UR history, as defined by the SRS metric (and 3rd party site):
  1. 2019/20 - 11.31
  2. 2010/11 - 11.23
  3. 2003/04 - 10.07
  4. 2009/10 - 10.03
  5. 2000/01 - 9.08
  6. 2014/15 - 8.65
  7. 1985/86 - 8.02
  8. 2015/16 - 7.28
  9. 2012/13 - 6.90
  10. 1991/92 - 6.38
I noted the following:
  • Only four of these teams danced - #1 & # 5 were both screwed by circumstances
  • #8 was a .500 year but we had our second most difficult schedule (only behind #3)
  • In 70 years, we've only had "Above Average" teams 31 times
  • Mooney had 6 of the Top 10, DT 2, JW 1, JB 1
  • The site also tracks SOS on a relative basis. We never consistently had SOS above 0 until we moved to the A-10.
Click to expand...

It is sad that we didn't get see this season play out. This years team was really good, but outside of an early season Wisconsin win, lacked the big wins of earlier teams. After Wisconsin is our next big win over a VCU team that was falling apart at home? I just never got that big season taste this year because I thought our resume really lacked some great top notch wins.

Thinking of 09/10 and 10/11 teams and thinking how we beat teams like Florida, Mississippi State, Missouri, Purdue, some huge classic wins over Xavier, even some slug fests with Temple in those years. Wainwright had a teams that beat Stanford, Kansas, Xavier back to back to back.
 
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97spiderfan said:
It is sad that we didn't get see this season play out. This years team was really good, but outside of an early season Wisconsin win, lacked the big wins of earlier teams. After Wisconsin is our next big win over a VCU team that was falling apart at home? I just never got that big season taste this year because I thought our resume really lacked some great top notch wins.

Thinking of 09/10 and 10/11 teams and thinking how we beat teams like Florida, Mississippi State, Missouri, Purdue, some huge classic wins over Xavier, even some slug fests with Temple in those years. Wainwright had a teams that beat Stanford, Kansas, Xavier back to back to back.
Click to expand...
After Wisconsin it was @URI, @Davidson, then @Duquesne.
Lastly VCU & Davidson at home.

No Stanford but at #90 Temple, at #18 Kansas, at #21 Xavier in 8 days. (# by Kenpom)
 
Yes, agree with 97, it is too bad that this year's team did not get to test it's mettle. I was looking forward to a match up with Dayton in the A10 final. And yes, other than Wisconsin, no huge wins, but also very little opportunity for huge wins. Really hope we can have some sort of return to normalcy in time for a full hoops season come November. Not feeling it now. Really wish there was a way to get the multitude of drug companies and governments all in unison working on a therapy and vaccine, but it seems like 100 different silos working on it.
 
Spiders05 said:
So, I've enjoyed looking at the lists people put out for the best players in UR history. I went to Sports-Reference's site to gather some information and noticed they had a metric to rate teams.

According to their Simple Rating System (the SRS takes into account average point differential and strength of schedule; 0 is average), this year's team had an 11.31, which is the best we had, going back to 1949. The undefeated 1934 team may have claim to be better, but looking through periods without SRS, I'm not seeing any other teams that may have a legitimate claim.

Here are the Top 10 Teams in UR history, as defined by the SRS metric (and 3rd party site):
  1. 2019/20 - 11.31
  2. 2010/11 - 11.23
  3. 2003/04 - 10.07
  4. 2009/10 - 10.03
  5. 2000/01 - 9.08
  6. 2014/15 - 8.65
  7. 1985/86 - 8.02
  8. 2015/16 - 7.28
  9. 2012/13 - 6.90
  10. 1991/92 - 6.38
I noted the following:
  • Only four of these teams danced - #1 & # 5 were both screwed by circumstances
  • #8 was a .500 year but we had our second most difficult schedule (only behind #3)
  • In 70 years, we've only had "Above Average" teams 31 times
  • Mooney had 6 of the Top 10, DT 2, JW 1, JB 1
  • The site also tracks SOS on a relative basis. We never consistently had SOS above 0 until we moved to the A-10.
Click to expand...
That is very interesting. Didn't one of the highly intelligent, but bad writers, member of this forum post at the beginning of last season "Is this the best basketball team in the past 50 years for U of R?" I guess the answer is yes.

I think he was also the first one to predict we would be preseason top 25 for the 1st time in school history.
 
I don’t think there are going to be many UR fans that would rank the best UR teams ever in the same order as this SRS system based one. The flaw seems to be the margin of victory factor which is often the case with these scoring systems.

Before I get thrown to the wolves, the team played very well and of course it is very disappointing that the season ended prematurely. But to say it was the best UR team ever is a stretch and highly debatable.
 
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The SRS is a terrible way to compare teams from different eras. That is not its purpose. We've already been over that.
 
I was a little shocked to see the 03-04 team so high on the list, but then I went back and looked at their schedule - probably the toughest schedule in the history of UR hoops. Not to mention - maybe one of the best A10 fields as well at the time.

Neutral site - South Carolina (NCAA team) - L
@ UAB - Sweet 16 NCAA team - L
VCU - NCAA Team - W (Still in CAA at time)
@ Wake Forest - Sweet 16 team - L
@ Manhattan - NCAA Team - L
Providence - NCAA Team - L
@Colorada - NIT Team - W
@ Kansas - NCAA Elite 8 Team - W

Then that year in the A10 you had the following.
Xavier - Elite 8
St. Joes - Elite 8 (And was a 1 seed)
Dayton - Loss first round
UR - loss first round

Then you had GW, URI, and Temple in the NIT.

Almost the entire OOC schedule was NCAA teams and/or on the road.
 
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SpiderTrap said:
I was a little shocked to see the 03-04 team so high on the list, but then I went back and looked at their schedule - probably the toughest schedule in the history of UR hoops. Not to mention - maybe one of the best A10 fields as well at the time.

Neutral site - South Carolina (NCAA team) - L
@ UAB - Sweet 16 NCAA team - L
VCU - NCAA Team - W (Still in CAA at time)
@ Wake Forest - Sweet 16 team - L
@ Manhattan - NCAA Team - L
Providence - NCAA Team - L
@Colorada - NIT Team - W
@ Kansas - NCAA Elite 8 Team - W

Then that year in the A10 you had the following.
Xavier - Elite 8
St. Joes - Elite 8 (And was a 1 seed)
Dayton - Loss first round
UR - loss first round

Then you had GW, URI, and Temple in the NIT.

Almost the entire OOC schedule was NCAA teams and/or on the road.
Click to expand...
Say what you want about JW but the man put together some great schedules for us. Played anyone/anywhere.
 
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Agreed - I have never agreed with the bad rap he gets for his time at UR. He took us to one NCAA and one NIT in his 3 years at UR. He scheduled better than any coach we had, and he tried to do what many on this board have asked - which is push the envelope on admissions get some higher rated players into UR. That did not mesh with the administration at UR and ultimately led to his departure.

I truly believe had he had success at Depaul and maybe took them to an NCAA tourney or two - we would be celebrating him as a coach at UR, but since he struggled and was ultimately fired for not winning at Depaul - we push him aside. Not saying he is the greatest coach in UR history - but certainly not the worse either.
 
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Agree about JW, that is a great schedule and kudos to him for the challenge. That OOC above that we went 2-6, with this years team maybe go 5-3?? If so we were in Joey's brackets all year, instead of only once. I know it is hard to get games, but those are mostly road and neutral. I do think those are easier to get without the promise of a return. We we should be doing that and trying to raise to the level instead of shrinking from it.
 
Few remember - but we entered that 3 game stretch of Temple, Kansas, and Xavier - all three on the road with a record of 8-8. Come back from the trip at 11-8 and felt like UR Hoops was on top of the world at the time. Now with our scheduling - 11-8 - your already packing up for next season.
 
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SpiderTrap said:
Agreed - I have never agreed with the bad rap he gets for his time at UR. He took us to one NCAA and one NIT in his 3 years at UR. He scheduled better than any coach we had, and he tried to do what many on this board have asked - which is push the envelope on admissions get some higher rated players into UR. That did not mesh with the administration at UR and ultimately led to his departure.

I truly believe had he had success at Depaul and maybe took them to an NCAA tourney or two - we would be celebrating him as a coach at UR, but since he struggled and was ultimately fired for not winning at Depaul - we push him aside. Not saying he is the greatest coach in UR history - but certainly not the worse either.
Click to expand...
Agreed Trap. JW had many strengths as a coach. I will say many of his recruits even the more highly rated ones didn't pan out as we had hoped and my biggest frustration with him was his lack of offensive game planning. It was basically chuck it up there and crash the boards. Mooney offensive system is a much better fit for us. JW's coaching strength though was his hard nosed battling defense.
 
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SpiderTrap said:
Few remember - but we entered that 3 game stretch of Temple, Kansas, and Xavier - all three on the road with a record of 8-8. Come back from the trip at 11-8 and felt like UR Hoops was on top of the world at the time. Now with our scheduling - 11-8 - your already packing up for next season.
Click to expand...
Trying to recreate the quads...
at 8-8 we were
Q1 1-6
Q2 0-1
Q3 3-1
Q4 4-0

at 11-8
Q1 3-6
Q2 1-1
Q3 3-1
Q4 4-0
Looks much better

Regular season 18-11
Q1 4-8
Q2 2-2
Q3 4-1
Q4 8-0

Selection Sunday 20-12 (2020)
Q1 4-9 (3-4)
Q2 3-2 (3-2)
Q3 4-1 (8-1)
Q4 9-0 (10-0)

I assume if we had lost any of our 3 straight Quad 4 games 2/14-21/2004 we would have been in trouble...
 
SpiderTrap said:
Agreed - I have never agreed with the bad rap he gets for his time at UR. He took us to one NCAA and one NIT in his 3 years at UR. He scheduled better than any coach we had, and he tried to do what many on this board have asked - which is push the envelope on admissions get some higher rated players into UR. That did not mesh with the administration at UR and ultimately led to his departure.

I truly believe had he had success at Depaul and maybe took them to an NCAA tourney or two - we would be celebrating him as a coach at UR, but since he struggled and was ultimately fired for not winning at Depaul - we push him aside. Not saying he is the greatest coach in UR history - but certainly not the worse either.
Click to expand...
I see some revisionist history for a guy that never had any semblance of an offense and couldn’t draw up an inbounds play to save his life. But he could recruit and had great one liners.
 
I remember JW differently than some of you. he won with Beilein guys. very few of his recruits that looked so good on paper panned out here. I'm not giving a guy credit for being a great recruiter when he lands kids that aren't a good fit for the school he works for. we had no offense. and when he left the cupboard was bare.
Brett Blizzard should be listed prominently in his bio. he owes his entire coaching career to that kid.
 
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JW was a different coach. We complain on this board all day long about Mooney's lack of defense. Maybe we should see if JW can be an assistant for Mooney. His philosophy was play hard nosed defense, keep games in the 50's-60's and find one guy on offense you can ride. At UNCW - he rode Blizzard on offense. At UR - he rode Skrocki on offense. Then you surround these guys big guys who can set screens and rebound.
His recruits - hit or miss. And since he was only at UR 3 years - hard to grade much. But that NCAA team had two main guys in the rotation that were his. Merritt and Moliva. Moliva was a solid player and had a bright future but the coaching change and think injury derailed him. Merritt had off the court issues so he left/asked to leave. But in that NCAA season as a frosh he put up solid numbers. 20 minutes a night, 5 points and 2.5 assists. If you have a frosh PG who puts up those numbers on an NCAA team - I think your happy about the future. Not to mention - once he left he led South Alabama to the NCAA tourney his senior year. So hard to say he was a miss in my eyes. But in terms of recruiting I think Wainwright will be remembered for AD Vassallo. What could have been had this kid been allowed to attend UR? Who knows. All we know is he ends up at VA Tech in a tough ACC where he makes all ACC team twice and ends up being one of the leading scorers in VA Tech history.
 
The other point about JW is that he was recruited away from us on the heels of Beilein getting recruited away from us. We really seemed irritated when he left but it is a good sign, really, of quality hiring when folks leave. Not unlike what VCU has faced.
 
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I never liked the argument of “he won with Beilein guys”. On that NCAA team he mixed in Moliva and Merritt.
And if we use that argument for JW then we must be fair and use it for Beilein. He won with Dooley guys his first year right?
 
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SpiderTrap said:
I never liked the argument of “he won with Beilein guys”. On that NCAA team he mixed in Moliva and Merritt.
And if we use that argument for JW then we must be fair and use it for Beilein. He won with Dooley guys his first year right?
Click to expand...
The difference, of course, is that Dooley won nothing with his own guys for three years. It took Beilein coaching them to bring out their abilities. If one coach wins with his guys and then another coach wins with the same proven guys, that’s something entirely different.
 
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Eight Legger said:
The difference, of course, is that Dooley won nothing with his own guys for three years. It took Beilein coaching them to bring out their abilities. If one coach wins with his guys and then another coach wins with the same proven guys, that’s something entirely different.
Click to expand...
Beilein didn't win anything in the A10? Made the NIT and had a good run there - but its not like Wainwright was given a top 25 team or bunch of returning players. Wainwrights first year he basically had Skrocki, Dobbins, and Jeff Myers. Unfortunately - Reggie Brown and Zwayer were injured and never the same. Following year - basically lost Myers and added Merrit and Moliva.
Just saying - its not like Beilein left Wainwright a stacked team. He had some options, but nothing eye popping by any means.
 
KWeaver said:
That was something that bothered me early on in the Mooney era. He really needed “his guys.”
Click to expand...
In fairness to Mooney, he was left a pretty bare cupboard when he started, but he also could have gone out and got some transfers to gap fill for that first year, which was putrid basketball. Peter Thomas and Sylla as our PG's. Good lord.
 
my point with "he won with Beilein's guys" wasn't to disparage his coaching. he won. that's what matters. he did a good job.
my point was that too many people give him credit as a great recruiter. who did he bring in that had a very successful Richmond career? pretty bad batting average, imo, despite some that looked good on paper in the recruiting services. it's more important to find guys that fit the school and the team.
 
97spiderfan said:
In fairness to Mooney, he was left a pretty bare cupboard when he started, but he also could have gone out and got some transfers to gap fill for that first year, which was putrid basketball. Peter Thomas and Sylla as our PG's. Good lord.
Click to expand...
I dont think Mooney's cupboard was as bare as people think when he started - the biggest issue was not the cupboard being bare - just that the pieces he had did not fit his system at all.

Mooney's first year he had the following players.
Kevin Steenberge
Jermaine Bucknor
Peter Thomas
Oumar Sylla
Gaston Moliva
Drew Crank
Jarhon Giddings
Ryan Butler

I would argue that Steenberge and Bucknor were all league caliber players as seniors. Thomas and Sylla were good enough to hold their own and be good role players. Moliva was coming off injury. Crank looked promising in Wainwrights system. Issue was we had no guards outside of Peter Thomas. And decided to redshirt Butler.

Maybe could have found someone to fill the guard position in recruiting - but that spot went to Butler so I can't argue too much. Not saying this was a great roster by any means - but when you are given to all league players and two solid role players in Thomas and Sylla - i don't think the cupboard is bare. The problem was the ingredients in the cupboard did not match the recipe the chef was trying to make.

And that is the question for all new coaches when they take over a team - do they try to win now with what they got or implement their system and sacrifice a year or two in the process like Mooney did. It worked for Mooney - we got to back to back appearances. But for some coaches it does not work.
 
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Any chef would have significant issues fielding a competitive team with no guards...regardless of the recipe. Merritt, Nelson, and Sandoval all transferred out.

He also didn't decide to redshirt Butler. Ryan broke his foot.
 
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SFspidur said:
Any chef would have significant issues fielding a competitive team with no guards...regardless of the recipe. Merritt, Nelson, and Sandoval all transferred out.

He also didn't decide to redshirt Butler. Ryan broke his foot.
Click to expand...
Agreed, Butler is not a guard either, so he was not going to be bringing the ball up the court anyway for us. And I still contend that was a bare cupboard, when you lack both not just a starting PG but also a starting SG as well as back-up for both positions. Sylla and Thomas natural positions were small forwards. And Thomas was a walk-on.

You might be able to survive a season OK with a lack of big men, but almost impossible to do so in the college game without guards. Also, there were no grad transfers back then, so my idea of Mooney filling those positions via transfer was not an option for him. He could have recruited a couple more freshman guards I guess though and maybe made year 2 less painful.
 
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He had limited time to work with that year...hired in early May. He was lucky he was able to get Butler. Would have been tough to find many other decent guys.

I'm trying to remember...Wainwright's last year, we only had two seniors, Scott and O'Malley. Did he have any commits/signees lined up to replace them? Giddings was already on board, redshirting. I don't remember names of any commits/signees who may have backed out.

The guard attrition was terrible for Mooney coming in...Scott graduated, Merritt, Nelson, and Sandoval all left. Mayes had to retire after never really being able to play. Paterick was plagued by injuries and couldn't make a go of it either. And nobody lined up coming in.
 
SpiderTrap said:
I would argue that Steenberge and Bucknor were all league caliber players as seniors. Thomas and Sylla were good enough to hold their own and be good role players. Moliva was coming off injury. Crank looked promising in Wainwrights system
Click to expand...

I love all these guys but I'm wondering if time has you remembering them as a little more talented than they were.
 
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