Hands down Dick Tarrant was a much better coach than John Beilein.
This post was edited on 4/6 9:42 AM by Stonewall D
This post was edited on 4/6 9:42 AM by Stonewall D
Best coach, Tarrant or Beilein?
- Thread starter Stonewall D
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Re: Best coach, Tarrant or Belein?
where do Les Hooker and Mac Pitt fit in?
both did pretty remarkable jobs with very few resources...very hard to compare different generations
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where do Les Hooker and Mac Pitt fit in?
both did pretty remarkable jobs with very few resources...very hard to compare different generations
Go Spiders!
The Spider Gang Group Facebook Page
Re: Best coach, Tarrant or Belein?
In my opinion, a coach that takes a small program in a small conference and makes known nationally... Dick Tarrant was a great coach. Mooney is a good coach, but unlike Tarrant he hasn't gotten the players to attain levels beyond their abilities. Tarrant, often did-
In my opinion, a coach that takes a small program in a small conference and makes known nationally... Dick Tarrant was a great coach. Mooney is a good coach, but unlike Tarrant he hasn't gotten the players to attain levels beyond their abilities. Tarrant, often did-
Re: Best coach, Tarrant or Belein?
We have to keep Ulla under control here. As Yogi said it is in the book you can look it up!
Mooney is way back in 3rd. Just as a reminder. Tarrant(65% winning %, 5 NCAA appearance, 4 NIT's in 11 years. Mooney 56%, 2 NCAA's and 1 NIT in 10 years. Beilein is at 65% with 1 NCAA and 2 NIT in 5 years.
By the way 21 and 14 is a 60% win rate. Both were better at making in game adjustments.
We have to keep Ulla under control here. As Yogi said it is in the book you can look it up!
Mooney is way back in 3rd. Just as a reminder. Tarrant(65% winning %, 5 NCAA appearance, 4 NIT's in 11 years. Mooney 56%, 2 NCAA's and 1 NIT in 10 years. Beilein is at 65% with 1 NCAA and 2 NIT in 5 years.
By the way 21 and 14 is a 60% win rate. Both were better at making in game adjustments.
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Re: Best coach, Tarrant or Belein?
Wainwright should goto the bottom given how badly he left the program. Dooley was rough but at least left beilein some pieces to work with. Ole Jer left a shell of a team and zero recruits. Not even close in my opinion. Also, does anyone remember now bad we were at inbounding the ball under jer? It was almost like jer had never designed an inbound play in his career...
Wainwright should goto the bottom given how badly he left the program. Dooley was rough but at least left beilein some pieces to work with. Ole Jer left a shell of a team and zero recruits. Not even close in my opinion. Also, does anyone remember now bad we were at inbounding the ball under jer? It was almost like jer had never designed an inbound play in his career...
Re: Best coach, Tarrant or Belein?
KWeaver, you are spot on with your analysis. Tarrant followed by Beilein. Mooney and Wainwright arenot in the same league with those two. Ulla and URFan2, have you guys been hitting the sauce?
KWeaver, you are spot on with your analysis. Tarrant followed by Beilein. Mooney and Wainwright arenot in the same league with those two. Ulla and URFan2, have you guys been hitting the sauce?
Re: Best coach, Tarrant or Belein?
Mooney is 3rd behind Tarrant and Beilein but there's no shame being #3 behind those two.
Mooney is 3rd behind Tarrant and Beilein but there's no shame being #3 behind those two.
Re: Best coach, Tarrant or Belein?
Tarrant by far is the runaway number 1. Not even close in my mind.
1) Tarrant
2) Beilein
3) Mooney (although I think a return trip to the NCAA next season could move him up to #2)
4) Wainwright
5) Dooley
Really - you only need to rank the top 4 - because they are all responsible for our 9 NCAA appearances. But I assume some throw Dooley in there because his players were coached under Beilein in his only NCAA run.
Tarrant by far is the runaway number 1. Not even close in my mind.
1) Tarrant
2) Beilein
3) Mooney (although I think a return trip to the NCAA next season could move him up to #2)
4) Wainwright
5) Dooley
Really - you only need to rank the top 4 - because they are all responsible for our 9 NCAA appearances. But I assume some throw Dooley in there because his players were coached under Beilein in his only NCAA run.
Re: Best coach, Tarrant or Belein?
Coach Pitt & Coach Hooker recruited locally. In fact Coach Pitt bragged he only recruited one player - Warren Mills. Little known trivia - back in their era VMI, W&L, were on par with UR, VPI, W&M & UVA. From the early 50s past middle 50s under Coach Hooker UR won 50+ games in a row. UVA would not play us then. Known as the "big six".
Coach Pitt & Coach Hooker recruited locally. In fact Coach Pitt bragged he only recruited one player - Warren Mills. Little known trivia - back in their era VMI, W&L, were on par with UR, VPI, W&M & UVA. From the early 50s past middle 50s under Coach Hooker UR won 50+ games in a row. UVA would not play us then. Known as the "big six".
Re: Best coach, Tarrant or Belein?
Beilein inherited a way better situation than Mooney. If Mooney had quit after his back to back NCAAs he is higher than Beilein...instead he rewards us with loyalty. Mooney comes out on top for UR. That is not to say he is a better coach than Beilein, he is not, just that he has been better for Richmond.
Beilein inherited a way better situation than Mooney. If Mooney had quit after his back to back NCAAs he is higher than Beilein...instead he rewards us with loyalty. Mooney comes out on top for UR. That is not to say he is a better coach than Beilein, he is not, just that he has been better for Richmond.
Re: Best coach, Tarrant or Belein?
as much as i disagree with a number of things ole jer did, bringing a recruit with him from uncw, bringing a high school coach along with his recruit, messing with admissions, he did beat kansas at the phog and he did schedule tough and he did garner an at large. have to give him credit for that....
as much as i disagree with a number of things ole jer did, bringing a recruit with him from uncw, bringing a high school coach along with his recruit, messing with admissions, he did beat kansas at the phog and he did schedule tough and he did garner an at large. have to give him credit for that....
Re: Best coach, Tarrant or Belein?
So.
1.Tarrant
2. Beilein
3. Mooney
Also agree that he jumps up to 2 if he takes up back to the NCAA next year.
I agree, but he didn't quit after his back to back NCAA and his four straight non-NCAA years now weigh against him.
So.
1.Tarrant
2. Beilein
3. Mooney
Also agree that he jumps up to 2 if he takes up back to the NCAA next year.
Re: Best coach, Tarrant or Belein?
The 2005-06 squad, it's tougher to assess absolute blame IMO. We were still pretty athletic, just not very skilled, zero depth, and totally ill-suited for the new style of play. I still think you blame the guy who left and created the volatile situation, but we did have a young coach who tried to fit square pegs into round holes with guys who weren't even around for the NCAA runs. It worked out fine, but I do think 2015 Mooney would have coached that team much differently than 2005 Mooney.
Agree for the most part, esp. 2006-07.
The 2005-06 squad, it's tougher to assess absolute blame IMO. We were still pretty athletic, just not very skilled, zero depth, and totally ill-suited for the new style of play. I still think you blame the guy who left and created the volatile situation, but we did have a young coach who tried to fit square pegs into round holes with guys who weren't even around for the NCAA runs. It worked out fine, but I do think 2015 Mooney would have coached that team much differently than 2005 Mooney.
#1 - Tarrant - because he took a team that hadn't been above .500, beat 18th-ranked Wake Forest in his first game as head coach, beat Georgia Tech four out of seven, beat the Yellow Jackets, Indiana (when Bobby Knight was still coach) and Syracuse in the NCAA Tournament, and consistently beat better teams. His teams played the best basketball in our history.
#2 - Beilein - did most of the things that Tarrant did, including beating a lot of higher-ranked teams, and never had a problem beating ourselves, or consistently being behind by double-figures at the half, or going on long spells without scoring a point. Teams played sharp and overachieved. All players' skills improved over the course of their UR careers. Undoubtedly recruited the bball players with the best GPAs and SATs in the history of the school at that time, in case you didn't know.
#3 - Mooney - some great wins; is a tremendous ambassador for the school; some NCAA wins and NIT wins that will always be great memories in our old age. I just don't think that Chris is as able to tweak his teams to adjust to tough situations in the same percentage as Tarrant and Beilein did. But those two victories over VCU this year were a thing of beauty.
#4 - The Rest of the List. Pitt and Hooker did some great things in two different eras. However, if you look at the entire history of Richmond Basketball, those two guys and the coaches mentioned above are about it. Ol' Jer gave us that incredible week (beating Kansas, Xavier and Temple, all in the top 18 or higher at the time); but was mediocre and had a lot of kids transfer out until he left the program to crash and burn. Mooney will always be on my good list for picking up the pieces that Ol' Jer left - and there weren't many pieces.
Save your money, ladies and germs - soon we will have to buy season tickets for next year, which should be a real good year!
#2 - Beilein - did most of the things that Tarrant did, including beating a lot of higher-ranked teams, and never had a problem beating ourselves, or consistently being behind by double-figures at the half, or going on long spells without scoring a point. Teams played sharp and overachieved. All players' skills improved over the course of their UR careers. Undoubtedly recruited the bball players with the best GPAs and SATs in the history of the school at that time, in case you didn't know.
#3 - Mooney - some great wins; is a tremendous ambassador for the school; some NCAA wins and NIT wins that will always be great memories in our old age. I just don't think that Chris is as able to tweak his teams to adjust to tough situations in the same percentage as Tarrant and Beilein did. But those two victories over VCU this year were a thing of beauty.
#4 - The Rest of the List. Pitt and Hooker did some great things in two different eras. However, if you look at the entire history of Richmond Basketball, those two guys and the coaches mentioned above are about it. Ol' Jer gave us that incredible week (beating Kansas, Xavier and Temple, all in the top 18 or higher at the time); but was mediocre and had a lot of kids transfer out until he left the program to crash and burn. Mooney will always be on my good list for picking up the pieces that Ol' Jer left - and there weren't many pieces.
Save your money, ladies and germs - soon we will have to buy season tickets for next year, which should be a real good year!
I can sort of give mooney a pass with regards to his first couple of seasons. Truthfully, while we talk about how the cupboard was bare, I still feel like he couldn't adapt to what he had as well as Beilein or wainwright did. He has his system and can't adapt. Fine, whatever.
Nevertheless, I look at his 2011-2012 season, when he had all his own recruits, and still, 16-16. Not good. Then, our past couple of seasons have been underachievement, especially in conference. It will take more than one more trip to the ncaas to pass Beilein in my mind. I liked how this year ended, by and large, and it was a good year, though fraught with bad losses, any one of which likely would've been enough to put us into the tournament and we would likely be having a different discussion here. There are years of mediocrity that won't have him passing Beilein any time soon in my mind. Beilein's adaptability and his ability to do it while he was in richmond have him up closer to Tarrant than mooney is to him.
Nevertheless, I look at his 2011-2012 season, when he had all his own recruits, and still, 16-16. Not good. Then, our past couple of seasons have been underachievement, especially in conference. It will take more than one more trip to the ncaas to pass Beilein in my mind. I liked how this year ended, by and large, and it was a good year, though fraught with bad losses, any one of which likely would've been enough to put us into the tournament and we would likely be having a different discussion here. There are years of mediocrity that won't have him passing Beilein any time soon in my mind. Beilein's adaptability and his ability to do it while he was in richmond have him up closer to Tarrant than mooney is to him.
fwiw it's worth, mooney was 13-17 in his first season here, "unadapting" to the players (I actually mostly agree with the adaptability comment). Of course, Ole Jer was 14-15 with pretty much those same guys the year before, so I don't know that Mooney could have adapted his system and done much better.
Mooney had to play that first season with 0 scholarship guards on his roster. 0. As my HS soccer coach was fond of saying, "I can't make chickensalad out of chickensh**."
Of note, I'm not arguing that CM is a better coach than JB, I'm still behind JB on that one, but I don't count seasons 1-2 against Mooney like many do. Just think it's not reasonable to saddle a guy with the total rebuild project. 16-16 after the sweet 16 year was weird. 4 guys on the team averaged double figure ppg, we just couldn't get it together in or out of conference that year.
We have had 2 Sweet 16s in our history, Tarrant and Mooney. So I'll use that as my ranking system (even though I have quibbles with what Mooney did after that Sweet 16 run).
I think Beilein is/was a great coach but his legacy is probably more defined by what he did after he left UR. If that 2000-1 team didn't get screwed by the CAA, I may rank things a bit differently.
I think Beilein is/was a great coach but his legacy is probably more defined by what he did after he left UR. If that 2000-1 team didn't get screwed by the CAA, I may rank things a bit differently.
the fact that the 00/01 team got screwed should have no affect on your ranking. that wasn't on Beilein.
I'm admittedly a huge Mooney fan. I'd say Beilein is slightly ahead in my book as the better coach ... but the book isn't closed on CM. I like where we are as a roster right now, but the next class will determine a lot about our future.
I'm admittedly a huge Mooney fan. I'd say Beilein is slightly ahead in my book as the better coach ... but the book isn't closed on CM. I like where we are as a roster right now, but the next class will determine a lot about our future.
Spiderman. "slightly better"?, "slightly better"? Surely you jest. You almost had me there. That's a good one.
That's a good point. I had forgotten how frustrating those first 2 seasons were at that position.
I always have wondered, if Daon Merritt was our PG in 2005-06, are we an NIT team? Or just marginally better?
you're either much more pessimistic about Mooney than I am, or you're remembering Beilein through rose colored glasses. I liked JB a lot, but he wasn't dominant here. I remember plenty of complaints that Beilein didn't recruit at a higher level. his recruits were under the radar. many here complained plenty about the lack of rebounding, and were excited because that would change under JW.
I was never excited about JW, but he almost got me during the Kansas run. I always thought JB did a very good job with the tools he had to work with. I think had he been here longer while we were in the A-10 I think the quality of his recruiting would have increased.
I'd put Mills ahead of Wainwright. Things were very different then., Davidson (4th at one point in time), Va Tech, WVa, were top 20 teams and in our conference. We played the original twin towers Artis Gilmore and Pembrook Burrows both 7 footers who lost to UCLA in the finals. he had to recruit with the Arena. (basically and old airport hanger) Only conference champs went to the NCAA tourney. And we were competitive.
I actually don't think JB was a great coach when he arrived. He was a better coach by the time he left. He received excellent mentoring from The Great One.
Yeah. That weird year really killed him for me. That team had talent. It made no sense.
At Richmond?
Tarrant
Overall...
Beilein.
That said it would only would be fair to compare overall if Tarrant did some sort of Laranaga thing at the end of his career (thankfully he didn't).
Agreed Mooney has a chance to be number two at Richmond with a bullet (if he's not already number two but for sake of argument I'll accept he's three). Also, he's definitely young enough that the upside to be number one all time here is still there too. We've had a lot of bad breaks under his tenure imagine if we started getting some positive momentum. Still, so much potential with our program. We make some sort of big splash next year I expect good things to follow.
Tarrant
Overall...
Beilein.
That said it would only would be fair to compare overall if Tarrant did some sort of Laranaga thing at the end of his career (thankfully he didn't).
Agreed Mooney has a chance to be number two at Richmond with a bullet (if he's not already number two but for sake of argument I'll accept he's three). Also, he's definitely young enough that the upside to be number one all time here is still there too. We've had a lot of bad breaks under his tenure imagine if we started getting some positive momentum. Still, so much potential with our program. We make some sort of big splash next year I expect good things to follow.
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